My thoughts on faith healing

[BountyHunterSAx]

We would call the fairy believer stupid and irrational, so why shouldn't we with your particular belief?

You shouldn't call the fairy believer stupid, since stupidity in one isolated aspect hardly qualifies them as a stupid individual overall. Particularly if they believe the sky fairy has virtually no (or absolutely no) direct observable effect on anything around them ever. Certainly they aren't purely rational. If you wish to say my belief in Allah is irrational, I believe you'll find that I beat you to the punch in my first post.

That difference isn't key, it's a slight distraction for people who don't see it your way. Very slight and very see-through

I don't understand you then. To me it's a huge difference. If I believed that my personal level of faith made a difference to how well my treatment went, then I can definitely see the flaw with being a Muslim Doctor.
However, I believe that in the end, everything that happens does so according to God's will, and as for us here we should do what He tells us and "Tie our camel" rather than just trusting him to sort it all out without bothering to put in any effort, how is that a bad thing? I believe that no matter what I do, anything and everything occurs with God's will and with God's will only.

The only way I can see that leading to problems is if you go the puritan route of trying to figure out what 'providence' wants and then act accordingly. For example, I see three failed courses of chemo and decide that God just wants this person to die and I should kill him. But as Muslims we *aren't* taught to try and understand why God does what He does, sufficient is for us to accept that He did it. If the three courses of chemo fail, I'll try to understand how God caused them to fail, was the tumor unresponsive to this particular *kind* of radiation? Is there another option other than chemo, etc. etc.


-AHMAD

[BountyHunterSAx]

Read it again, I don't ever claim that my faith caused the medicine to work. I say that Allah caused the medicine to work. The difference is key, because I *also* believe that the same occurs for a non-believer. It's not as if I think God is more pre-disposed to cure one patient because they're a Muslim or not a cure another because they aren't. And it *CERTAINLY* doesn't mean that I think my being a Muslim directly makes the medicine work better for me, which is what "*SNIP* his faith is doing it instead" clearly means.


-AHMAD

This changes the fact that you are posting unsubstantiated claims as fact not one iota.

This is bullshit. Show me one thing I posted that I didn't precede with "I believe that", "this is my opinion", "Islam says that", etc. If you say that's posting it as if it was fact, then please masturbate over my concession that I can't prove it on the first page.

The only reason i'm continuing to post is that we've now gone on a tangent, discussing my unsubstantiatable beliefs and whether or not they're harmful. No one here is arguing "prove your Allah exists and is really actually doing anything." I think that I can substantiate (or defend at any rate, burden of proof is on knife) that my beliefs are *not* harmful, and so there is an actual debatable issue.

-AHMAD

[Knife]

The only way I can see that leading to problems is if you go the puritan route of trying to figure out what 'providence' wants and then act accordingly. For example, I see three failed courses of chemo and decide that God just wants this person to die and I should kill him. But as Muslims we *aren't* taught to try and understand why God does what He does, sufficient is for us to accept that He did it. If the three courses of chemo fail, I'll try to understand how God caused them to fail, was the tumor unresponsive to this particular *kind* of radiation? Is there another option other than chemo, etc. etc.

That indeed is my problem and from your posts you really didn't make me feel like it didn't exclude you.

[BountyHunterSAx]

The only way I can see that leading to problems is if you go the puritan route of trying to figure out what 'providence' wants and then act accordingly. For example, I see three failed courses of chemo and decide that God just wants this person to die and I should kill him. But as Muslims we *aren't* taught to try and understand why God does what He does, sufficient is for us to accept that He did it. If the three courses of chemo fail, I'll try to understand how God caused them to fail, was the tumor unresponsive to this particular *kind* of radiation? Is there another option other than chemo, etc. etc.

That indeed is my problem and from your posts you really didn't make me feel like it didn't exclude you.

Ah, well it does. Personally, I find it as hubris in the extreme to on the one hand claim to worship an all-knowing Lord and then on the other claim to know why He is doing what He does (unless He told you Himself, of course). If it interests you, send me an IM and I'll show you how one can substantiate that claim from a Muslim perspective.

-AHMAD

[Knife]

Ah, well it does. Personally, I find it as hubris in the extreme to on the one hand claim to worship an all-knowing Lord and then on the other claim to know why He is doing what He does (unless He told you Himself, of course). If it interests you, send me an IM and I'll show you how one can substantiate that claim from a Muslim perspective.

-AHMAD

It's not so much that as the inherent bias that leads to faulty reasoning that's my problem. As I've stated in numerous posts.

[General Zod]

This is bullshit. Show me one thing I posted that I didn't precede with "I believe that", "this is my opinion", "Islam says that", etc. If you say that's posting it as if it was fact, then please masturbate over my concession that I can't prove it on the first page.

That's utterly retarded. If you don't think it's a fact then why make the claim? You can put the qualifier "I believe" or "it's my opinion" all you want, but that isn't going to change the fact that saying "Allah cures me through that medicine" is a claim, and making a claim requires evidence to back it up on here or it will be mocked as bullshit. Do I need to post the definition of the term to clarify this?

[Singular Intellect]

We would call the fairy believer stupid and irrational, so why shouldn't we with your particular belief?

You shouldn't call the fairy believer stupid, since stupidity in one isolated aspect hardly qualifies them as a stupid individual overall. Particularly if they believe the sky fairy has virtually no (or absolutely no) direct observable effect on anything around them ever. Certainly they aren't purely rational. If you wish to say my belief in Allah is irrational, I believe you'll find that I beat you to the punch in my first post.

So what's your point then? You're just declaring that having an irrational belief is a wonderful experience for you?

What was your goal for making this declaration at a majority secular board who's motto is "mockery of stupid people" which includes mockery of stupid ideas and beliefs?

[BountyHunterSAx]

That's utterly retarded. If you don't think it's a fact then why make the claim? You can put the qualifier "I believe" or "it's my opinion" all you want, but that isn't going to change the fact that saying "Allah cures me through that medicine" is a claim, and making a claim requires evidence to back it up on here or it will be mocked as bullshit. Do I need to post the definition of the term to clarify this?

Merriam-Webster 'claim'
1 a: to ask for especially as a right <claimed the inheritance> b: to call for : require <this matter claims our attention> c: take 16b <the accident claimed her life>
2: to take as the rightful owner
3 a: to assert in the face of possible contradiction


As per the third definition, "I believe Allah cures me through medicine" is a claim. The possible contradiction is, "No, you do not believe Allah cures you through medicine". Not, "Allah does not cure you through medicine."

I've made no statement regarding absolute reality, only my perception thereof. You can say 'your perception is bullshit and stupid and wrong', but that doesn't refute my claim that it is my perception.

-AHMAD

[Admiral Valdemar]

It's curious, because we have someone here trying to rationalise something they already fully understand in a secular manner, but which they have to jury rig some frankly lame explanation for the workings of involving their fairy tale of choice.

I mean, what's going on here? If you really do have faith in Allah, then just accept that your deity is behind the real reason: natural laws. You don't need to come on here, of all places, and then put this working model of yours to us for vetting, because it is obviously fucking stupid. You're a doctor, so you must have a head on your shoulders, which means this can only be because of some subconscious dispute between your rational side and your (more than likely) religious upbringing forced upon you by your friends and family.

I work in medical bio-tech, so technically you and I are in the same profession too. I am well aware that the products I help produce that get used by people like yourself are working as they do because of chemical and biological interactions brought about by physical law. If you didn't accept this, then you couldn't do my job, because signing off a report saying "Yeah, this product probably works. I know God/Allah will make it work when needed" is a very good way to get your arse in jail for a long, long time.

So what's with all this additional bullshit if you accept exactly what I do, but feel the need to introduce a fifth wheel and claim that's the real working? It's no more sensible than the Church of England's stance on evolution being guided by God. Uh, I'm pretty sure it works by physical laws on its own quite well, so no need for God, eh? Same here. Allah is a totally redundant entity. You might as well tell me there are magical pixies that push my car when I slam on the accelerator (of course, they work by causing a combustion of explosive liquid driving cylinders and cams and driveshafts, but this is a minor detail).

This really is perplexing, and comical and scary at the same time. How many other people with a brain need to introduce useless features into perfectly functional models in order to sate their irrational belief system?

[General Zod]

I've made no statement regarding absolute reality, only my perception thereof. You can say 'your perception is bullshit and stupid and wrong', but that doesn't refute my claim that it is my perception.

-AHMAD

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. Try again skippy.

[BountyHunterSAx]

I've made no statement regarding absolute reality, only my perception thereof. You can say 'your perception is bullshit and stupid and wrong', but that doesn't refute my claim that it is my perception.

-AHMAD

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. Try again skippy.

Very well, here's my proof:

* I know how to type. [premise]
* I know how to construct English sentences [premise]
* From 1&2, I am literate and coherent.
* To be literate and coherent requires some modicum of intelligence and sanity.
* Thus I am not insane nor am I completely lacking in intelligence.
* If I am sane, and not unintelligent, then it is reasonable to say that I know what I am thinking.
* I am not lying.[premise]
Therefore: When I claim to believe something, it is reasonable to say that I do indeed believe it.

QED: I believe that Allah cures me through medicine.


-AHMAD

[BountyHunterSAx]

Missed a step, after the 'Therefore' but before QED:
* I stated that I believe Allah cures me through medicine.

-AHMAD

[Admiral Valdemar]

Since when has literacy and intelligence precluded insanity? Are you kidding me?

[BountyHunterSAx]

Fair enough, I'll admit I fired that off without really thinking it through. What simple proof can I offer to show that I am in control of my own mental faculties? That I am aware of what I am thinking?

If we can't think of anything, then for now I'll just take that as a premise. If I didn't know what I was thinking I'd be having an awfully hard time writing this after all.

-AHMAD

[Admiral Valdemar]

It is an assumption, and usually people who say they aren't insane are the ones you tend to scrutinise.

This does sound a lot like a solipsist's argument. We cannot prove you don't think like this, because evidently you do. That's not important, though. What is important is that, objectively, this level of metaphysics you speak of is not supported by anything empirically testable and, in fact, defies the principle of parsimony.

Ergo, whether you believe this or not is irrelevant to the situation that concerns us. In reality, you are wrong. Why you contest reality is a mystery. You clearly understand science to an extent and that is what I don't get. Do you feel compelled to insert extra steps into the explanation of medical efficacy because of your cultural upbringing? If so, why? Can you not see that the more logical choice would be that your upbringing is wrong on this matter, and your point of contention is with this religious dogma, and not all of reality?

[SecondStorm]

What I will not do is take a life.

While it may sound noble I also find it naive.
For example: in a terminally ill patient would you deny the morphine that would keep the patient free of pain but also speed up the process ?

When does a fetus become a 'life' is an issue that frankly I've done nothing whatsoever to ponder over, and thus can't really comment on.

You really should start pondering this issue.

Here's a few things I'll say up front:

*) If the mother's life is in any real danger from the pregnancy as per what we know by the standards of modern medicine today, then I wouldn't hesitate to perform an abortion.

*) If after the period that the fetus is 'alive' (by whatever standard which I as of now really can't speak to) and the pregnant woman was a rape victim who was in no danger as a result of the pregnancy, I wouldn't perform an abortion. If she said things that made me worry for the future safety of the child, I'd advise her to put s/he in a foster home.



-AHMAD

Abortion is a tricky issue but ultimatively your patient here is the (future) mother and not the glob of cells growing in her womb. You should do your duty to her.
The Western World generally allow abortion in the 12 to 14 week with some exceptions. Thats the benchmark I follow.


Im amazed by the amount of healthcare practitioners here. I myself am a licensed practical nurse on my 10th year.

[Cykeisme]

So it's like WH40k's Machine Spirit, only with pharmaceuticals.

Nice.