Traviss' Clone Wars novel questions

[Ender]

Because Thrawn's instant-clones didn't do the basics that one would expect from that kind of training. Luke poked a hole in the hull and not a single one of those stormtroopers had the good sense to use their air packs. Boot camp instills in you the training to make sure using your equipment is nearly a reflex. These guys had a minute or two to turn on the equipment they were already wearing. Failure to do so screams poor training to me.

However it noted earlier in the chapter that they clones were not equiped with any rebreathing equipment, not even enough to stop colant gases from killing the clones. This was noted by Han whom as a former imp. officer would presumably know how to identify the boarding troops equipment

We've seen stormtroopers standing around in vacuum before with nothing but the built in stuff of their armor. Specifically in ANH.

[Ender]

Oh come on, you know that's just Zahn's lack of forethought and intelligence. That's a stretch against all the other implication that they were dedicated troops and excellent and like old-style Stormtroopers at everything.

You can be dedicated without being good. A jihadist is far more dedicated to his cause then an enlisted man. Dedication is not the same as skill. The talk of their excellence and stormtrooper like abilities comes when they are operating equipment like AT-ATs and TIEs and ships, not infantry. Face it, the few examples of Thrawn style clones as infantry shows they are novices.

Why bother copying Max Veers and Fel and shit if they're going to be retarded anyway?

Why bother coping thiem in the first place? Good performance is the result of good training, not genetics.

Why all the fear of the clones?

Given the massive devestation the last time there was a full scale war, you don't think people are going to shit themselves on the idea that you have another Grievous level commander running around with another near infinite source of troops?

Why bother with the clones at all?

If most of them were navy, techs, and pilots it will be fine - most of that can be flash taught and are in environments where slip ups are far more forgiving. Plus it is excellent psychological warfare.

[Agent Sorchus]

We've seen stormtroopers standing around in vacuum before with nothing but the built in stuff of their armor. Specifically in ANH.

Three points

1) Not all soldiers in the Empire use Stormtrooper Corps standard equipment, Naval Troops and army Troops
2) Only a small portion of the boarding ships made it to the Dreadanaught. the Stormtroopers and heavier equipment could have been taken out by the turbolaser strike.
3) In Heir to the Empire it is mentioned how rarely stormtroopers are deployed. Now that would imply that Thrawn would focus on replenishing his stormtrooper corp, but it is implied that he was also cloning standard naval personnel.

Altogether it is likely that the specific troops that Han and Luke faced are first tier naval troops with a focus on getting a ship moving soon after capture. More of a specialist force than a main combat boarding force.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You can be dedicated without being good. A jihadist is far more dedicated to his cause then an enlisted man. Dedication is not the same as skill. The talk of their excellence and stormtrooper like abilities comes when they are operating equipment like AT-ATs and TIEs and ships, not infantry.

Okay, so they just happen to be able to be good at piloting starfighters and operating armored vehicles but you expect me to believe they're incapable of teaching stormtroopers to activate their rebreathing gear? Your scenario is not holistically credible. The jihadist example is a total red herring, because in this case that type of combat prowess is wholly unsuited for their purposes. Again, we should interpret the data so that cloning is at least superficially good for something, and not so that main characters are fucking stupid and basic plot premises are completely nonsensical. You would have us believe that Thrawn and the CW Republic is stupid, and in my opinion, this kind of analysis totally defeats the point of reconcilating interpretation.

Face it, the few examples of Thrawn style clones as infantry shows they are novices.

The few examples of Thrawn style everything indicates he's an impossibly micromanaging shitfest for a leader and his flag captain likes to pretend to be his second-in-command. And apparently you were cherry-picking the source because it comes to light they lacked the standard stormie gear. Therefore the entire claim of "impossible to implant muscle memory" becomes a declaration from on-high by you without basis.

Why bother coping thiem in the first place? Good performance is the result of good training, not genetics.

Well there should be some reason, and the information should be interpreted to maintain credibility where possible. Again, you'd have us believe Thrawn is fucking stupid and driving his own war effort off the path with retard distractions as opposed to things that make sense from any logical perspective, and his opponents conspire to lend him credibility by pretending he's not an idiot. How is this the preferred object of reconcilating interpretation?

Given the massive devestation the last time there was a full scale war, you don't think people are going to shit themselves on the idea that you have another Grievous level commander running around with another near infinite source of troops?

Apparently not, because they're fucking losers who can't find a switch on their goddamn suits.

If most of them were navy, techs, and pilots it will be fine - most of that can be flash taught and are in environments where slip ups are far more forgiving. Plus it is excellent psychological warfare.

Perhaps. I just fail to see how it is compelling and credible that they don't have the ability to teach them to find the switch on a suit but they can teach them to handle spacecraft in combat situations, and damn well too.

[Illuminatus Primus]

We've seen stormtroopers standing around in vacuum before with nothing but the built in stuff of their armor. Specifically in ANH.

So? Then if it openly states they didn't have rebreathing gear than we assume these suits weren't complete or a lighter version or something of that sort. We don't throw out a data point completely because it interferes with a conclusion on your part.

[Ender]

We've seen stormtroopers standing around in vacuum before with nothing but the built in stuff of their armor. Specifically in ANH.

Three points

1) Not all soldiers in the Empire use Stormtrooper Corps standard equipment, Naval Troops and army Troops
2) Only a small portion of the boarding ships made it to the Dreadanaught. the Stormtroopers and heavier equipment could have been taken out by the turbolaser strike.
3) In Heir to the Empire it is mentioned how rarely stormtroopers are deployed. Now that would imply that Thrawn would focus on replenishing his stormtrooper corp, but it is implied that he was also cloning standard naval personnel.

Altogether it is likely that the specific troops that Han and Luke faced are first tier naval troops with a focus on getting a ship moving soon after capture. More of a specialist force than a main combat boarding force.

These were stormtroopers.

[Kartr_Kana]

Well, US Army basic training lasts about two months. Military occupational specialty (MOS) training varies greatly; infantry lasts a month (I believe this training is included in USMC basic training, which lasts three months), while mine, for helicopter armament/electrical systems repairer, lasted eight months.

USMC Boot Camp is three months long, after boot camp infantry go to the Infantry Training Battalion at the School of Infantry for two months. There they are given there specific MOS, basic rifleman, machine gunner, Mortars, assault (that's me ), and TOW gunners. Non-infantry MOSes also go to SOI to Marine Corps Training unit, I think that's about a month long. Once the POGs graduate then they go to there MOS specific school. Since I'm in the Infantry I have no idea how long a POG MOS school lasts.

As for Thrawns Stormtroopers if he's cranking them out every 21days then he's going to need a lot of armor. With the Empires manufacturing already strained and depending on how many clones he's growing that's going to be difficult. Perhaps to meet the demand they cheapened the armor. Took out "non-essentials" like oxygen supplies for when they get stuck in vacuum.

[Ender]

Okay, so they just happen to be able to be good at piloting starfighters and operating armored vehicles but you expect me to believe they're incapable of teaching stormtroopers to activate their rebreathing gear? Your scenario is not holistically credible.

There is a massive difference between being able to operate a piece of equipment and the training entailed in it and training someone to remain calm under pressure to take the appropriate actions. It is the difference between book learning and situational training. You claim that this is not an appreciable difference, yet all the evidence of the world weighs against you.

The jihadist example is a total red herring, because in this case that type of combat prowess is wholly unsuited for their purposes.

That was rather the point. You cited dedication as a positive trait, which it is. But only to a point. Dedication alone is useless, you need a robust training regime to make use of it.

Again, we should interpret the data so that cloning is at least superficially good for something, and not so that main characters are fucking stupid and basic plot premises are completely nonsensical. You would have us believe that Thrawn and the CW Republic is stupid, and in my opinion, this kind of analysis totally defeats the point of reconcilating interpretation.

No, I am saying that for infantry engaging in assault actions they are poor performers. This should not be a surprising assertion - the low number of clones he could in theory produce at maximum capacity means that using it to produce infantry is a waste. I again point that routine operations, which can be taught through the flash learning, are a much more practical utilization of the technology, and a role we know they made use of.

You are treating the assumption that they can instill the level of training you claim is a given. But it isn't - Kamino also made robust use of flash learning, yet they required massive practice fields as well. The same goes for the Khom, who also used Spaarti systems. They gave flash training, but then still went to have on the job training from their previous iterations as well. In fact even here we saw them send clones into field training after the fact - attacking Karrde's abandoned base is regarded as a training exercise by General Covvel. Continuous training for troops is done against a fictitious enemy, you use dry scenarios for early insitu training.

The few examples of Thrawn style everything indicates he's an impossibly micromanaging shitfest for a leader and his flag captain likes to pretend to be his second-in-command. And apparently you were cherry-picking the source because it comes to light they lacked the standard stormie gear. Therefore the entire claim of "impossible to implant muscle memory" becomes a declaration from on-high by you without basis.

DFR comic shows them in stormtrooper gear. We know the rebreathers are built into their helmets.

Well there should be some reason, and the information should be interpreted to maintain credibility where possible.

Presumably it is because that is procedure to select the highest performers to serve as templates. This is a reward for those performers, it is not because those traits get passed on.

Again, you'd have us believe Thrawn is fucking stupid and driving his own war effort off the path with retard distractions as opposed to things that make sense from any logical perspective, and his opponents conspire to lend him credibility by pretending he's not an idiot. How is this the preferred object of reconcilating interpretation?

Thrawn is attempting to field a major military build up without the resources to do so. His major manufacturing facilities are tied up in ship production, straining his materials reserves to the point where he has to steal the metal because apparently they can't mine it fast enough. That means a massive droid army is out. He still needs infantry through, so that leaves recruits, or diverting some of the clone production. Clones are overwhelmingly cheaper then recruits, as demonstrated above. This makes clones the preferable choice. He still can't field a huge army of them, but he can make use of the reputation of stormtroopers to make up the difference - by using a mix-max strategy by assigning them to backwaters in place of senior units of sending them in with senior units it gives the impression of strength when in fact it is lacking. This interpretation is wholly consistent with the canon, as it matches his use of art to give the impression that he can draw magic strategy from nowhere and was an observed procedure by COMPNOR during the heyday of the Galactic Empire. It also fits with what I believe is the common interpretation of the Katana fleet - that its use was not the strength of 200 frigates, but that he could deploy them to areas and rotate out the stronger and more valuable ships to the front line. By sending a frigate to patrol a sector he freed up a cruiser. The same principle applies here with infantry units.

Apparently not, because they're fucking losers who can't find a switch on their goddamn suits.

Your ignorance in the different styles and benefits of training regimes is showing. You would do well to swallow your pride and learn rather then ape the shitheels that have become the dominant personality on this forum.

Perhaps. I just fail to see how it is compelling and credible that they don't have the ability to teach them to find the switch on a suit but they can teach them to handle spacecraft in combat situations, and damn well too.

Again I see you fail to understand the distinction between the operational environments. I can flash train someone the casualty procedure. They can know it by rote memorization. This does not mean that they will keep calm, take the proper steps in the proper order and adapt their actions in time with the situation. And failure to do so has varying degrees of forgiveness depending on the environment. Ships and starfighters will have a great deal of built in support to automatically compensate for the limitations of biological beings. This means that slow action or inaction is less devastating to those in them. Infantry is the most unforgiving position of all, something I would have thought routine reports from Iraq would have made clear.

[Agent Sorchus]

From Dark Force Rising Chapt 28

"They don't," Han said. "At least, they weren't wearing any when they charged us. They had standard trooper air filters, but if we fill the whole corridor with coolant those won't do them much good. You never know," he added reflectively. "The coolant might be flammable, too."

Obviously Han has reason to believe that the troops are not carrying a hour's supply of air. We are also told that it took a little less than an hour for the area to be repaired and repressurized. How long do Stormtroopers survive in full vacuum with the air supply anyway?

Edited for grammar

[Illuminatus Primus]

There is a massive difference between being able to operate a piece of equipment and the training entailed in it and training someone to remain calm under pressure to take the appropriate actions. It is the difference between book learning and situational training. You claim that this is not an appreciable difference, yet all the evidence of the world weighs against you.

Bullshit, I never said they are one and the same. What I said was why couldn't they possibly artificially enter muscle and reflex memory if they can artificially insert pretty-damn good (though not perfect) copies of minds into fresh brains? Are you arguing there is not a fundamentally physical aspect to these skills and abilities that could not be replicated, at least on the order of sophistication as say a 90+% functionally accurate copy of a mind and its memories to an artificially-grown living adult cerebral cortex?

That was rather the point. You cited dedication as a positive trait, which it is. But only to a point. Dedication alone is useless, you need a robust training regime to make use of it.

Right, and the context of their comments would be fucking pointless if they had only dedication and nothing necessary to implement it. If we're credibly taking in-universe ranking officers' opinion of their adversary's combat prowess and competence at face value, than your interpretation is irreconcilable without concluding they are stupid or incompetent.

No, I am saying that for infantry engaging in assault actions they are poor performers. This should not be a surprising assertion - the low number of clones he could in theory produce at maximum capacity means that using it to produce infantry is a waste. I again point that routine operations, which can be taught through the flash learning, are a much more practical utilization of the technology, and a role we know they made use of.

You made a long-list of comments regarding reaction time, competence under pressure, etc., etc. I don't see how that does not apply to piloting starfighters and a laundry list of front combat roles that we know they were placed in that are hardly limited to "routine" and rote. This is a gross distortion of the face value presentation of the competence and prowess of the Thrawnite clones, and you know it.

You are treating the assumption that they can instill the level of training you claim is a given. But it isn't - Kamino also made robust use of flash learning, yet they required massive practice fields as well.

So? That means they prefer to use practice and real-world training for some applications. This hardly means they're incapable of artificially integrating muscle and reflex memory, but rather means that given you are stuck with ten years before the decanted clone will be mature that conventional training may be desirable.

The same goes for the Khom, who also used Spaarti systems.

The Khommite technology was used as a base for the Spaarti Creations cylinders.

They gave flash training, but then still went to have on the job training from their previous iterations as well. In fact even here we saw them send clones into field training after the fact - attacking Karrde's abandoned base is regarded as a training exercise by General Covvel. Continuous training for troops is done against a fictitious enemy, you use dry scenarios for early insitu training.

Again, the fact that complementary training and real-world experience is useful does not disprove the possibility that they could integrate muscle and reflex memory artificially. I never said they are stated to be able to do so, just that there's no reason this is extremely more unrealistic than flash-imprinting entire minds, and the fact that Spaarti-type clones (and GeNodes) are ready-to-deploy straight from the vat to me implies that it is probably possible, given that your deficit between conventionally trained troops and clone troops is never substantiated in canon (rather, inferred from a premise which I find to rest on shaky grounds).

DFR comic shows them in stormtrooper gear. We know the rebreathers are built into their helmets.

Its stated that they don't have the full gear by Solo. I don't see any reason to discard that datum. We don't even know if they need physical activation; ANH implies it is fully integrated and automatic. Given that the Empire by this point was running at some desperation, the Stormie weapon system was already running threadbare, given how rare original Stormtroopers were and they had already been substituting them with faux-Marines. Is it so radical that superficially similar armor, shitty license-copies similarly went for the same "keeping the appearances while losing some capability" approach as their manpower acquisition? We know that Solo was able to eyeball it as lacking full support, is it possible this shoestring armor had become de rigueur? I think if they were still using TIE Armored Spacesuits of the OT, there would've been no need and no doubt they'd have full seal and filter automatically.

Presumably it is because that is procedure to select the highest performers to serve as templates. This is a reward for those performers, it is not because those traits get passed on.

I don't see what personal value having a bunch of copies and clones passed on gives you, besides creeping you the fuck out. Besides, what you're saying is simply inaccurate. A mind is an interface between environmental (memories) and genetic contribution (genome); the flash-imprinting and cloning process duplicates both. They keep the original shtick hoping to get as close as possible to the original case. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who didn't take that understanding away from the Thrawn trilogy.

Thrawn is attempting to field a major military build up without the resources to do so. His major manufacturing facilities are tied up in ship production, straining his materials reserves to the point where he has to steal the metal because apparently they can't mine it fast enough. That means a massive droid army is out. He still needs infantry through, so that leaves recruits, or diverting some of the clone production. Clones are overwhelmingly cheaper then recruits, as demonstrated above. This makes clones the preferable choice.

This is pretty good work, but rests on the shaky ground of clones are automatically cheaper per unit than recruits, and as you even noted, the pricing is really suspect in the RPG. I don't have any confidence in their economics to rest an argument fundamentally upon it.

He still can't field a huge army of them, but he can make use of the reputation of stormtroopers to make up the difference - by using a mix-max strategy by assigning them to backwaters in place of senior units of sending them in with senior units it gives the impression of strength when in fact it is lacking.

Inconsistent with the Katana seizure, that was a top high-priority mission.

This interpretation is wholly consistent with the canon, as it matches his use of art to give the impression that he can draw magic strategy from nowhere and was an observed procedure by COMPNOR during the heyday of the Galactic Empire.

See above, but what do you mean by "observed procedure by COMPNOR"?

It also fits with what I believe is the common interpretation of the Katana fleet - that its use was not the strength of 200 frigates, but that he could deploy them to areas and rotate out the stronger and more valuable ships to the front line. By sending a frigate to patrol a sector he freed up a cruiser. The same principle applies here with infantry units.

Meh, its a really strained fix. Its really hard to justify no matter how you cut it.

Your ignorance in the different styles and benefits of training regimes is showing. You would do well to swallow your pride and learn rather then ape the shitheels that have become the dominant personality on this forum.

Don't be condescending. I'm perfectly in my own rights to find the reasoning and holistic interpretation of general competence and "routine procedure ideal for flash imprinting" consistent with Stormie clones unable to switch on their rebreathers. Especially considering OT-era TIE Armored Spacesuits are fully-sealed automatically, and that Han was able to eyeball these Stormie's suits as lacking full respiration support. Therefore, the idea they just could not use an available means of support (which apparently was not available) because they are not capable of replicating a type of memory (while being able to copy a mind's worth of cerebral cortex connections at a high level of accuracy) I find lacking in credibility. I find a different scenario - that these suits are not the automatically-sealed OT-era TIE Armored Spacesuits, but rather less-capable facsimiles like some of the new men occupying them due to desperate times - that does not make artificial muscle and reflex memory replication impossible more likely.

Point taken on the dominant personality of the forum, I concur with you completely.

Again I see you fail to understand the distinction between the operational environments. I can flash train someone the casualty procedure. They can know it by rote memorization. This does not mean that they will keep calm, take the proper steps in the proper order and adapt their actions in time with the situation. And failure to do so has varying degrees of forgiveness depending on the environment. Ships and starfighters will have a great deal of built in support to automatically compensate for the limitations of biological beings. This means that slow action or inaction is less devastating to those in them. Infantry is the most unforgiving position of all, something I would have thought routine reports from Iraq would have made clear.

Except the simple fact is your fundamental premise, that the Stormtrooper clones had access to OT-era capability but failed to use it, itself based on the idea it is the same armor despite Han eyeballing it as lacking capability and the probable fact that OT-era capability did not need activation, is hardly indisputable. In fact, for the stated reasons, I do not find it the preferred explanation for the incident at hand.

[Agent Sorchus]

Simply the fact that the clones can speak basic is a testament to the abilities of flash imprinting of muscle memory. Speech is a large requirement on the muscles in making the basic sounds that compose a language. The 21 day figure for decanting is all the time the clone has for learning and mastering the muscle mass in speaking basic. If one only takes the period after the clone has achieved almost adolescent size as the end of the flash learning of language and basic muscle control the learning speed for just language should be almost one week in total time alongside the other infantile skills they must master.

The far simpler reflex of sealing a combat suit up should be nothing, mabe learned in the last twenty five minutes before decanting.

If the average imperial recruit joined at age 19 and a clone is decanted at an equivalent age the clone has to learn in one hour what the recruit has 15 days to learn. According to Kartr_Kana's numbers for infantry training of 4 to 6 months, the clone gets the same level of training in ten hours.

[General Soontir Fel]

I finished it today. Noble Mandos and Sith lecturing on morality was something I expected. But Traviss definitely didn't watch the same movies as the rest of us. She can misstate basic facts. In Revelation, she claimed Qui-Gon Jinn killed Darth Maul. And now:

(Anakin thinking)

He was the Chosen One, they told him. He was supposed to bring balance to the Force. Anakin thought that some little extra support might go with being the Chosen One, a helping hand or at least some understanding fromt he Jedi Council, but instead he was passed around like an unwelcome burden, ending up with Qui-Gon Jinn and then Kenobi because nobody else would have him.

Anakin constantly referring to Obi-Wan as "Kenobi" in his mind was really fucked up. And whoever gave Traviss permission to openly write about Palpatine being Sidious has completely wrecked the novel. Those scenes are cringeworthy.

[Darth Hoth]

I vaguely remember someone saying that Spaarti cloning times had been brought down to a matter of months. No reference, though.

The Last Command has explicit dialogue that during the Clone Wars, any less than a year in the tank would cause clone insanity.

I know, but that is a rather old source (not to mention, it is Timothy "Captain Minimalism" Zahn writing). I seem to recall that being retconned somewhere. An Essential Guide? Or perhaps WEG?

Apparently, it was the former:

Perhaps the fastest method for cloning, Spaarti cylinders are four-meter-tall tanks that grow clones within a protective gelatin, producing an adult clone within a matter of weeks. Spaarti clones are actually trained and educated during growth: a computer processing system linked directly to a clone's cerebral cortex feeds the clone a constant stream of useful information.

[Anguirus]

^ Does that actually retcon anything? You could grow a trained clone in a few weeks who still happens to be insane.

[Block]

Well, US Army basic training lasts about two months. Military occupational specialty (MOS) training varies greatly; infantry lasts a month (I believe this training is included in USMC basic training, which lasts three months), while mine, for helicopter armament/electrical systems repairer, lasted eight months.

USMC Boot Camp is three months long, after boot camp infantry go to the Infantry Training Battalion at the School of Infantry for two months. There they are given there specific MOS, basic rifleman, machine gunner, Mortars, assault (that's me ), and TOW gunners. Non-infantry MOSes also go to SOI to Marine Corps Training unit, I think that's about a month long. Once the POGs graduate then they go to there MOS specific school. Since I'm in the Infantry I have no idea how long a POG MOS school lasts.

I'm pretty sure MCT is 10-14 days long. There are also a couple of specialties that go through ITB and are then sent to further MOS schooling, LAV crewmen, Scout/Snipers and the Recon guys if I remember right.

[Kartr_Kana]

LAV crewmen used to, last I heard they don't anymore. Scout/Snipers run an indoc after they get to the fleet, so they're a regular 03XX till then which means they go through SOI. Recon runs an indoc when they get to SOI, after the indoc they finish the regular infantry course then go to BRC, IIRC. Fleet Marines can also run an indoc for Recon from time to time. So yes S/S and recon also go through ITB. Not 100% sure about LAV, but I think they only go through MCT now. It's been a few years since SOI though

[Block]

When I went through in '99 I had to go to ITB, since then it may have changed. Why it would I don't know, since the basic platoon tactics for LAV-25's are fireteam tactics for the infantry, and it just makes sense to go through it.

[Kartr_Kana]

Yeah I went through ITB in early '06 and the LAV crewmen were still going through the 0311 course. However I recently heard that they go through MCT now. Their also not 03's any more. Course I'm not a crewman so I don't know for sure, just heard it through the LCpl underground

[Thanas]

As for all those talks of Thrawn's clones being less than competent, we also have the battles in the HoT duology where Fel's clones outperform both Alliance and Imperial pilots.

[Ender]

Upon considering the point of talking (and more importantly walking), issue conceded. They can apparently instill in "muscle memory" and other things that shuld take years of training.

[Sidewinder]

As for all those talks of Thrawn's clones being less than competent, we also have the battles in the HoT duology where Fel's clones outperform both Alliance and Imperial pilots.

A quick search on Wookieepedia says the Thrawn Trilogy is set nine years ABY, while 'The Hand of Thrawn' Duology is set 19 years ABY; it's possible the Empire's technology for cloning and flash training improved during that time.

[Anguirus]

^ IIRC, the Fel clones dated to 9 ABY and were a hidden cell set up by Thrawn while he lived.

[Ba'al's Thunderbolt]

Gotta love the moralizing from the Sith apprentice who just kidnapped a fucking ten year old.

nope, no hypocrisy there.

How many people believe that they are actively engaged in evil and revel in it? I mean other than the sort of ineffectual psychopaths that can't manage to accomplish anything? People who aren't crazy to the point of dysfunction are going to rationalize their behavior, not just to the world, but to themselves. Lots of legit criticisms of Traviss to be made: this isn't one of them.

[Ghost Rider]

Read the rules, newbie.

Thread locked.