SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread II

Karmic Knight · Post by **Karmic Knight** » 2008-09-01 01:55am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:ERm.. what's the game time by the way?

1st Week of January, 2009.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-01 01:56am

It's the new year? Hell.. I was writing and thinking of stuff that was meant to be deployed in the 2nd game year.

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-01 02:00am

what? no, Marina said (in IRC) that the year's turnover is the 15th. 2009 starts September 15th.

EDIT: ask her yourself if you don't believe me. :v

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-01 02:01am

Czechmate wrote:what? no, Marina said (in IRC) that the year's turnover is the 15th. 2009 starts September 15th.

Oh good. I have time to write a few more orders and get them moving.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2008-09-01 02:03am

Hmm... last time the year started on the first. and doing so makes timing easier.

In other news, I added a nice little speech into my post.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2008-09-01 02:03am

I had intended for it to turn over on the 15th of each month, not the 1st, but I'm not extremely settled on that.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-01 02:30am

DarthShady wrote:What's up with the map of the border regions? PeZook are we waiting for you or Marina? It's hard to have a war if you are not sure where it is.

D'oh!

I sent the updated map to Marina, but forgot to post the actual picture.

Here ya go

Take note, this map isn't approved yet, but I don't think there's gonna be any problems.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2008-09-01 02:53am

Um. Problem: I'm not a Republic. Just like last game, I'm an empire, and make no pretense of being anything else.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-01 02:59am

Beowulf wrote:Um. Problem: I'm not a Republic. Just like last game, I'm an empire, and make no pretense of being anything else.

What,and now you spot it?

No problem though, it's easily fixable.

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-01 03:02am

Before the map is finalized, can you please change 'Imperial Estates of Westchester' to 'Tian Jiao'? thanks.

Shinn Langley Soryu · Post by **Shinn Langley Soryu** » 2008-09-01 03:02am

So, we're not adopting Shroom's proposal to move Zoria and the Kingdom of Serenity to Velaria, then?

Also, I'd like to be moved further down southwest, closer to that cluster of islands off Velaria's northwest coast.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-01 03:06am

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:So, we're not adopting Shroom's proposal to move Zoria and the Kingdom of Serenity to Velaria, then?

Also, I'd like to be moved further down southwest, closer to that cluster of islands off Velaria's northwest coast.

No, Marina decided Zoria and Serenity stay where they are.

Any further map revisions have to be approved by Marina, since it's the 1st, and so the map is kinda officialishly locked.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-09-01 03:38am

I'd like to point out that my SSANs are not really detectable on a consistent and reliable basis. Take an Ohio, then make it quieter -- which is not that hard when:

1.) You are using a natural circulation reactor (kind of low powered; but I'm not aiming for 30+ knot transit speeds).

2.) You have a fully electric drive (adds weight to your sub, and hence cuts down on speed, but it reduces gearing noises).

3.) Lots of room for rafting for machinery -- it's not hard to damp the vibrations and stuff for machinery -- the hard part is making dampers that: 1.) Last for at least 25 years -- because the dampers will be behind machinery that is very expensive and hard to remove and 2.) Fit into very constrained spaces.

Since my boats are big big big; I can afford to do all three.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-01 04:00am

MKSheppard wrote:I'd like to point out that my SSANs are not really detectable on a consistent and reliable basis. Take an Ohio, then make it quieter -- which is not that hard when:

1.) You are using a natural circulation reactor (kind of low powered; but I'm not aiming for 30+ knot transit speeds).

2.) You have a fully electric drive (adds weight to your sub, and hence cuts down on speed, but it reduces gearing noises).

3.) Lots of room for rafting for machinery -- it's not hard to damp the vibrations and stuff for machinery -- the hard part is making dampers that: 1.) Last for at least 25 years -- because the dampers will be behind machinery that is very expensive and hard to remove and 2.) Fit into very constrained spaces.

Since my boats are big big big; I can afford to do all three.

So essentially, you are going sit still, fire a spread of torps, drift a few tens to hundreds of meters, fire and repeat et. infinitum?

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-01 04:10am

What about MAD detectors? A 40 000 tonne sub is going to produce a lot of magnetic interference, especially with a fully electric drive.

Currently subs are only detectable with MAD if they are close to the surface, but I wonder if it would be possible to build a network of anchored underwater MAD detectors?

Or drop them like sonobuoys?

Another way to counter these subs is to continue development of torpedo countermeasures, like sonar jammers.

Also, another idea: drones? From torpedo-armed Predators able to react instantly to a sub firing a torpedo spread, to recoverable minisubs using AIP sailing around a convoy or battlegroup, acting like a mobile sonobuoy. They'd be periodically recovered and refuelled by aircraft, and would be armed with a single torpedo (or not at all, with actual attacks being handled by the ships and aircraft)

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-01 04:17am

Well, if his hull is demagnetized, and he has enough shielding for the electric drive, it might work.

However, I'm going to stress that I am not entirely sure the hull will stay demagnetized with a magnetic source inside even with a shield.

Also, that sub of his is going to be slow. Ohios do 25 knots if I am not wrong. He is going to be even slower, like 20!

But that aside, how the hell is Shep going to develop something like that in less than a year? The engineering issues are numerous. Not least I thought Stuart mentioned that the Ohio represented the the best that could be done with the given grade of steel (HY80 if I am not wrong), and that the steel HY100 used in the Seawolf was expensive, and extremely hard to wield! Even if he went double hull like the Typhoon, the Typhoon itself was probably the best you could do with the materials available.

Siege · Post by **Siege** » 2008-09-01 04:18am

Just a quick note: I'm throwing my lot in with Westchester, but San Dorado has not yet officially declared war. My fleet is currently coasting just outside the Westchestrian territorial waters, and that's where it'll stay for now. I suggest all FTO fleet elements in the area link up before any of us officially declare war upon the PRSF.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-01 04:26am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Well, if his hull is demagnetized, and he has enough shielding for the electric drive, it might work.

However, I'm going to stress that I am not entirely sure the hull will stay demagnetized with a magnetic source inside even with a shield.

It won't: differences in temperature across the hull mean that water on one side of the boat is typically of different salinity than on the other, which creates an electric potential on the hull. The bigger the boat, the bigger the problem.

This is why titanium-hulled boats are still detectable by MAD.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Also, that sub of his is going to be slow. Ohios do 25 knots if I am not wrong. He is going to be even slower, like 20!

If it's a commerce-denial boat, that's quite enough. It won't be able to speed-run from a counterattack if it comes quickly enough, though - hence why I threw out the idea of torpedo-armed long-endurance drones which could hover around, say, 10kms from a convoy and fire the weapon immediately after the sub fires a spread. I'm not sure how effective that would be, though.

Karmic Knight · Post by **Karmic Knight** » 2008-09-01 04:28am

SiegeTank wrote:Just a quick note: I'm throwing my lot in with Westchester, but San Dorado has not yet officially declared war. My fleet is currently coasting just outside the Westchestrian territorial waters, and that's where it'll stay for now. I suggest all FTO fleet elements in the area link up before any of us officially declare war upon the PRSF.

I am neutral.

The FTO should retain neutrality.

These are two nonmembers, with their own allies fighting a war that doesn't involve us.

Let's wait until the dust settles then clean up the mess, offer either one or two memberships, say hi to either the Tian Xia or the CSR, call it a day.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-01 04:30am

PeZook wrote:It won't: differences in temperature across the hull mean that water on one side of the boat is typically of different salinity than on the other, which creates an electric potential on the hull. The bigger the boat, the bigger the problem.

True, like a thermocouple.

If it's a commerce-denial boat, that's quite enough. It won't be able to speed-run from a counterattack if it comes quickly enough, though - hence why I threw out the idea of torpedo-armed long-endurance drones which could hover around, say, 10kms from a convoy and fire the weapon immediately after the sub fires a spread. I'm not sure how effective that would be, though.

There is a reason why I deployed the Tu-142; to pack enough firepower and endurance into a single package.

But... torps are bigger than mere hellfires I think. You aren't going to carry a lot of torps on the Global Hawks.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-01 04:34am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: But... torps are bigger than mere hellfires I think. You aren't going to carry a lot of torps on the Global Hawks.

Yeah, that's a problem. It may be better to use strategic bombers loaded with torpedo-carrying missiles to escort convoys from the air, or just design bigger drones and spam them in huge amounts

Another idea may be to simply fit as many merchants ships as possible with helicopter pads and have them carry ASW helicopters: even if they have nothing more than a small heli carrying sonoboyus, that adds dramatically to ASW assets of a convoy.

Merchant ships could also carry buoys themselves and just drop them overboard to nail subs trailing the convoy.

I'm just throwing out ideas here ; many of them are probably gonna be worthless

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-01 04:34am

the Vineyards can be as scared of the Commies as they want. Siegetank; if you want to support Tian Jiao, you go right ahead and have your ships come up to the southern peninsula and join the TJN ships there. the TXN vessels will be arriving soonish, as well.

Siege · Post by **Siege** » 2008-09-01 04:35am

Karmic Knight wrote:The FTO should retain neutrality.

These are two nonmembers, with their own allies fighting a war that doesn't involve us.

It does involve us; one of the main purposes of the FTO (insofar as I'm concerned at least) is to keep the continent peaceful. That's why we're building a taskforce to intervene in the CFR after all; for much the same reason, we should be getting involved when one nation on our continent launches an unprovoked attack on another, member nation or not.

Let's wait until the dust settles then clean up the mess, offer either one or two memberships, say hi to either the Tian Xia or the CSR, call it a day.

At the conference we've just all made a big hoo-hah about how we want to keep the big powers from getting involved in our affairs, and now we're letting them pull our bloody chestnuts out of the fire? Well, uh, no, I don't think so. I mean, I'll take whatever help Tian Xia can offer us while we're at it, but if we're going to operate this way the whole FTO thing is going to be pretty bloody useless. What if Shepistan decides to land troops in a non-member nation tomorrow? Are we going to do nothing then as well?

Czechmate wrote:the Vineyards can be as scared of the Commies as they want. Siegetank; if you want to support Tian Jiao, you go right ahead and have your ships come up to the southern peninsula and join the TJN ships there. the TXN vessels will be arriving soonish, as well.

Alright, though I'll wait to see if Coiler wants to join me first: a cruiser and ten destroyers is better than a cruiser and three destroyers, after all.

Zor · Post by **Zor** » 2008-09-01 04:38am

Finally added my nation's overview.

Zor

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-01 04:41am

PeZook wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: But... torps are bigger than mere hellfires I think. You aren't going to carry a lot of torps on the Global Hawks.
Yeah, that's a problem. It may be better to use strategic bombers loaded with torpedo-carrying missiles to escort convoys from the air, or just design bigger drones and spam them in huge amounts

Another idea may be to simply fit as many merchants ships as possible with helicopter pads and have them carry ASW helicopters: even if they have nothing more than a small heli carrying sonoboyus, that adds dramatically to ASW assets of a convoy.

Merchant ships could also carry buoys themselves and just drop them overboard to nail subs trailing the convoy.

I'm just throwing out ideas here ; many of them are probably gonna be worthless

Heh. I'm more in favour of having my Tu-142s doing long range endurance patrols.

Designing ships to have helipads is possible, though it will need some serious tweaking of the existing designs.

Designing drones to carry torpedoes and so forth is possible. Though if they grow too large, I'd rather just go with a bomber.