What the fuck?

[Connor MacLeod]

What do you mean "this time"? The ONLY "evidence" given is the thread Kuja brought up, that's what I'm basing my opinion on. If someone else has evidence of Coffee attacking or waging vendetta let them bring it forward, otherwise, the accusations are hearsay. If someone is asking me to vote on punishment it damn well better be on evidence, I'm not becoming someone else's bully-enforcer towards people they've taken a dislike to.

As far as I am aware, he HAS had issues with Colfax in the past, at least the recent past (I noted this in the Wanderer Plagarism thread Shep posted in Off Topic here. Looking there, they either have a history, or he went off on Colfax for no good reason than he simply dislikes him (and as I can tell he makes no secret of it.) I'm not going to start calling that evidence of a vendetta either, but I'm not pretending he's innocent (nor, as I can tell, is he trying to convince me he is.) Nor, near as I can tell, is anyone easking you to bully or be a hatchet-man on anyone else's behalf.

Secondly, in case you haven't noticed, I've been rather explicit in opposing decision of punishment (and opposing permaban regardless) in this until we fucking know better. So I would apprecaite it if you would stop going off on me or treating me like some sort of fucking opponent. If you have problems with me, Ender, or whatever, take it up with us privately. Or complain to a mod. Or whatever. This isn't the place where we should be fighting.

A possibility, but I'm more concerned with senators using their position as a big stick against those they simply don't like or don't agree with. While any senator can bring up a matter, I'd save censure only for egregious examples. Being a senator does not make you smarter, a better debater, or entitled to anything you weren't entitled to the day before you had that title. Being a senator does not make you automatically right. The flip side, of course, is that the Testingtards, titled folks, and general PITA's are not always wrong.

Actually I think we've seen a pattern of people jumping the gun and wanting to punish people, and its gone on for a year or more. I know this for a fact because I got myself involved in one of them, and its one of the things that changed my mind. If someone in the Senate wants to seek punishment for another member, they need to actually DO the work to convince us that person merits punishment. The burden of proof for such may vary according to the person or the charrge, but it does not invalidate the need for that burden. WE stand by Burden of proof in MANY facets of the forum, particularily the sci fi forums and SLAM - I don' tsee why it should be any less true here.

And, if we have to enforce corrective measures on the Senate to ensure they meet that, I'm all for it. I've been finding myself having to do MORE DIGGING and independent research than I care to do in this fucking place to figure out what the fuck is going on, and it is both time consuming for me and annoying. And when a Senator, ANY SENATOR comes forth and they don't do a good job of proving their case, I get annoyed that they waste MY time over something that ordinarily doesn't involve me.

A Vendetta accusation in my mind requires tht one establish a pattern of such behaviour over a period fo time, and I have YET to see a pattern develop.

[Connor MacLeod]

And the more I look into this, the more I have to fucking wonder just how LONG people have been beating up on Colfax just because... he's beat upable about. I'm starting to wonder if I startt looking at Colfax's posts I'll see how many people just start to attack him with no provocation.

That I might start seeing LOTS of people doing that frankly pisses me off. I'm not exactly going to champion the guy, but there's no good reason for people to beat him up just because they look and think "perpetual chew toy"

[Broomstick]

What do you mean "this time"? The ONLY "evidence" given is the thread Kuja brought up, that's what I'm basing my opinion on. If someone else has evidence of Coffee attacking or waging vendetta let them bring it forward, otherwise, the accusations are hearsay. If someone is asking me to vote on punishment it damn well better be on evidence, I'm not becoming someone else's bully-enforcer towards people they've taken a dislike to.

As far as I am aware, he HAS had issues with Colfax in the past, at least the recent past (I noted this in the Wanderer Plagarism thread Shep posted in Off Topic here. Looking there, they either have a history, or he went off on Colfax for no good reason than he simply dislikes him (and as I can tell he makes no secret of it.) I'm not going to start calling that evidence of a vendetta either, but I'm not pretending he's innocent (nor, as I can tell, is he trying to convince me he is.) Nor, near as I can tell, is anyone easking you to bully or be a hatchet-man on anyone else's behalf.

Secondly, in case you haven't noticed, I've been rather explicit in opposing decision of punishment (and opposing permaban regardless) in this until we fucking know better. So I would apprecaite it if you would stop going off on me or treating me like some sort of fucking opponent. If you have problems with me, Ender, or whatever, take it up with us privately. Or complain to a mod. Or whatever. This isn't the place where we should be fighting.

My apologies - on re-reading this I see where this might be right as an opposition to you and that is NOT what I intended. I should have worded it better, because really we ARE in agreement on 99% of this matter.

I was, up until this point, completely unaware of ANY past history between Coffee and SC. Like you, I tire of having to do my own digging on these issues. Hence, I said we should discuss evidence given in this thread - if there is history, produce it, if not, it's irrelevant, but I neglected to make it clear my frustration and annoyance was NOT with you but with having to deal with this sort of thing again when the person who started it couldn't be bothered to provide supporting evidence and/or the thread concerned was inaccessible.

[Connor MacLeod]

Coffee's elucidated to me on his "history" about that, and I won't say anything else on it, but if he allows I'll post his comments here and let other people draw their conclusions about what he thinks.

It seems like I'm gonna be doign more digging, but I'll be damned if I waste an entire evenign doing this. AFter I post this, and post Coffee's reply (if he allows it) I'm off.

[Connor MacLeod]

Coffee's clarifications to my above statements:

As far as I am aware, he HAS had issues with Colfax in the past, at least the recent past (I noted this in the Wanderer Plagarism thread Shep posted in Off Topic here.

Actually by then SC's nickname had been "Colefail" for a while. It really wasn't anything done out of animosity towards the kid at all. If you look at that exchange, and I can't speak for SC on this, but I was just having fun with the kid (I mean, that was one hell of a set up he gave me for that exchange.) And it was one of the rare instances where SC gave as good as he got and he didn't go all emo about it, which was actually pretty cool on his part.

So yeah, no vendetta, just your basic poking of fun when the opertunity for a good laugh presented itself. I mean, hell, I got made fun of there and you don't see me crying about it (or SC crying about it for that matter). Much ado about nada, my man.

Looking there, they either have a history, or he went off on Colfax for no good reason than he simply dislikes him (and as I can tell he makes no secret of it.)

Not really an active dislike. Something you'll notice about me if you read through my posting history is I don't hold grudges. If I have a problem with some in one thread, it stays in that thread. I don't go following people around to heckle them actively, because that would be an actual "vendetta". But if someone in a thread I come across says something (be it they just say something that's a damned good set up or say somethign wildly stupid that deserves mockery) that sets them up for a good joke, my impulse control goes haywire and I fire a shot off in the spirit of good fun (usually).

But yeah, as far as I'm concerned, I don't have any actual issues with SC any more then I have issues with anyone else on this board.

I'm not going to start calling that evidence of a vendetta either, but I'm not pretending he's innocent (nor, as I can tell, is he trying to convince me he is.)

Am I guilty of making fun of people? Ya damn right I am. Am I guilty of doing so out of genuine dislike or hate for anyone? Not guilty. I don't hate anyone on this board. I mean, if that was the case then why don't I still give Marina shit, or Mike Wong shit, or Broomstick shit, or any number of people I've gotten into arguments with or have made fun of on this board? It's because I don't hold grudges, man.

Make of it wht you will.

[Connor MacLeod]

I just had to ask since this has been sitting awhile, is there ANY evidence for VEndetta? Otherwise I say we just end that with a "no".

On the other hand, I'm also wondering. We DO seem to have evidence that certain people dogpiled SC unfairly, and I'm pretty sure that's not allowable (I'd say it at least qualifies under "spamming" and "me-tooing", - not a vendetta at least but definitely a grudge.)

[Broomstick]

I'd say what happened to SC was approaching "bullying" - attacking someone because they're vulnerable and it's become a habit to attack him. It's not pursuing him to attack, it's attacking him just because he's there. I find this extremely distasteful. If he left for a bit on his own and came back intent on changing his ways then he should be allowed the opportunity to do so.

[Coyote]

I also have to add that Chitoryu's pile-on is especially disappointing. Were it not for Schuyler Colfax, the mob would as easily be on him, and he knows it.

[Connor MacLeod]

I also have to add that Chitoryu's pile-on is especially disappointing. Were it not for Schuyler Colfax, the mob would as easily be on him, and he knows it.

They're both it seems regarded as perpetual chew-toys for "anyone else" to dogpile. Were it chitty and if he were behaving, I'd probably have defended him (despite me thinking him largely useless otherwise.) Hell, most of the dogpilers aren't really what we'd consider model debators (average at best?)

I'm all for a mild punishment to the pile-on (everyone involved) unless they can give a good reason why they shouldn't (I'm always open to reason.) I will note that despite the fact I find Mr. Coffee's attitude in this somewhat disappointing (at least with regards how he handled himself in Testing, and I've made this clear to him) he is not at liberty for punishment. His dickishness in this is annoying, but not punishable, so he should be explicitly excluded from the dogpiling this time. Unless someone can think of a reason why he should be included (again, I'm all ears.)

a perverse idea did strike me here. Since the dogpilers were so eager to go after Colefax, could we re-name the offenders? Choose something appropriate and possibly silly? I think it would be rather apt.

Whether its permanant or temporary, of course, is up for discussion, ,as well as what the names might be if this is a likeable idea.

[Coyote]

a perverse idea did strike me here. Since the dogpilers were so eager to go after Colefax, could we re-name the offenders? Choose something appropriate and possibly silly? I think it would be rather apt..

101 Dalmations?

[Ender]

special title "Colfax's bitch"

[Connor MacLeod]

well use your imaginations

mind you, this assumes that the mods/admins/Mike think its an acceptable and possible punishment. I'd like to know what they think, but I think it would be suitable to the istuation

[Ghost Rider]

special title "Colfax's bitch"

It has merit....hmmmm.

[Connor MacLeod]

We need to make a list though.. we have that one thread in Testing (which is now in HoS) and the other one in AMP that is missing? (Evidence?)