Morality/legality of the handicapped stall

[Lagmonster]

I don't expect this to be a long thread, but I still wanted to bring it up. I managed to encounter a situation, over the weekend, that I never thought I'd have to: A handicapped man called a store manager over to kick me out of a store because I'd used the handicapped-accessible stall in the store washroom.

Now as far as I know, using the handicap stall isn't like parking in the handicap parking space, despite what this loudmouth was saying. Of course, I don't have a godamned clue what the law says; he could very well be right. Is there anyone who can confirm this guy's story - that handicapped stalls are there for more than the convenience of handicapped people?

I feel fairly confident that handicapped stalls are there for the convenience of handicapped people, and that if other options present themselves for an able person, they should use it, but that there are no specific laws or rules preventing anyone from using whichever stall they damn well feel like.



The situation, for those who like reading about unreasonable assholes, was thus: The washroom had a urinal and two stalls. When I went in, one stall was occupied. So I went into the handicap stall. The first guy finished a few seconds later and left, after which this asshole comes rolling in and starts knocking on the door. I say I'll be done in a minute. At which point, the guy says, "Are you even handicapped?". I respond that no, I'm not, but I'll only be another minute. The guy, however, began yelling that the stall was for handicapped people only, that I was breaking the law, etc.. When I simply repeated that I'd be done in a minute, he said that he was going to get the store manager.

By the time I get out of the washroom, asshole was nowhere to be seen, but since I had finished my business there and had no wish to be the centre of a public hissy fit, I just walked out of the store.

[General Zod]

It seems pretty clear he was just being a stupid asshole. I've certainly never heard of any such law anyway; it might be different in Canada but I somehow doubt it.

[Solauren]

I have heard of no such law in my time.

I have also known stores that don't have handicap washrooms. AFAIK, they are not actually a legal requirement.

Odds are, the guy was just being an asshole.

[Cairber]

Just as more evidence that those stalls are not only for the handicapped: a lot of the places I have been to have the changing table in the handicap stall.


Also, I admit I am unable to fit three kids and myself in a regular stall, so we go in the handicap one usually. I would never go in front of someone who needed the facility, and if I was aware someone behind me needed it I would offer it to them first. Beyond that, there is really nothing more that should be done, IMO.

[Turin]

You're in Canada, so I'm not sure what the code situation is there, but if I had to hazard a guess I'd say your accessibility laws are covered under the International Building Code and associated local accessibility codes. My understanding (I'm employed by an architect as a designer and my duties include a lot of code analysis, so I deal with this stuff every day, albeit int he US) is that these are similar between the US and Canada. There's nothing in IBC or any accessibility codes I've seen (ex. the Americans with Disabilities Act or various state accessibility codes) that limits use of stalls to disabled.

Now mind you, in the US at least, local codes can vary, and so it's entirely possible that a municipality has a silly law making the accessible stalls "for disabled only," but I'd hope it'd be labeled as such. Really, in all likelihood the guy was just being an asshole.

I have also known stores that don't have handicap washrooms. AFAIK, they are not actually a legal requirement.

Again, depending on what country you live in Solauren, the codes might vary. But in the US they are a requirement for any public establishment. Existing buildings that predate the requirement aren't required to upgrade unless they undergo "significant" renovations. Local codes can be more restrictive, but not less so.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Guy was being an asshole. Stop and think of it this way: If all the stalls are filled, does someone have the right to yell and scream at the guy that got in before them? Handicapped doesn't mean you can't hold it in until someone else finishes and it doesn't mean you're entitled to not waiting to take a shit. He can wait his turn just like anyone else would have to.

[Enigma]

I live in the same city as Lagmonster and I haven't encountered any problems using handicapped stalls when I do my job around the city. Actually I even prefer using those bathrooms because many of the regular stalls in office buildings are designed for stick people. Granted, I am not skinny but even if I lost all of the excess weight, I'd still won't be narrow enough to comfortably use the regular stalls, so I use the handicapped ones.

The only time I don't use handicapped stalls are in high traffic areas because of an increased chance of someone actually handicapped using it.

But that loudmouth really needs to take a chill pill.

[Themightytom]

Guy was being an asshole. Stop and think of it this way: If all the stalls are filled, does someone have the right to yell and scream at the guy that got in before them? Handicapped doesn't mean you can't hold it in until someone else finishes and it doesn't mean you're entitled to not waiting to take a shit. He can wait his turn just like anyone else would have to.

Well assuming he can't wait and he shits in his chair, thats a pretty big shot to the ego squelching around a public venue. The mechanics of the cleanup are mindboggling and it would be an indignity heaped on an indignity.

Not that any of us walker's are any better off, I'm just trying to understand his mindset.

But I think you're right, he was jsut entitled, and particularly irritated that someone took his "reserved" spot. I never really got it. When I grew up people were trying to come up with names to describe my condition of sighted blindness. They couldn't exactly call me blind, because I can see, they can't call me sighted, because my eyesight poses a significant challenge. Some of the people I associated with ate up the specialness. They asked for all the toys and freebies when they went for IEPs or 504s and they loved telling people they needed special accomodations, sitting in the front row, having people read menus to them etc.

It always seemed absurd to feel "Entitled" for having a natural characteristic. Society doesn't owe me anything because of how i was born or what happened to me, I actually owe society for providing problem solving tools that wouldn't be available in the wild.

If the guy was a vet, or became crippled through an act of man, he might feel entitled, but ultimately that feeling isn't going to make him any better as a person. I was pretty excited when i qualified for the boston marathon as a regular athlete, ebcause I COULD ahve qualiied my first two marathons by using the B2 and B3 guidelines. A sighted person ahs to finish in under 3 hours 12 minutes but technically I had FIVE HOURS to finish. If I took what I was "entitled" to I wouldn't have gotten any faster or worked any harder.

Ultiamtely that guy shouldn't feel entitled, he should feel grateful and proud to live in a society that includes him to such an extent. he should also be able to act like an adult i not for everyone else's sake but for his own dignity.

I don't believe theres actually a law requiring bathrooms in a store, and even if there is I have only heard the term "Handicapped accessible" used, never "Handicapped reserved" Which is what they typically post on parking signs.

[loomer]

He's pretty much just an asshole, pay him no heed.

[Knife]

Well assuming he can't wait and he shits in his chair, thats a pretty big shot to the ego squelching around a public venue. The mechanics of the cleanup are mindboggling and it would be an indignity heaped on an indignity.

Well, just in the realm of speculation; any damage to the sacral area of the spine will result in the patient having an incredibly tough time either urinating or defecating, so if this was his problem (why he was in the chair) chances are he could hold it fine.

[Darth Wong]

Some businesses have only a single-occupant bathroom with handicapped access. According to this asshole's argument, the presence of the handicapped logo on the bathroom means that non-handicapped people just can't use the public bathrooms in those businesses at all.

The fact is that everyone occasionally has to wait when he gets to the bathroom, whether he's handicapped or not. If he cuts it so close that he can't wait at all, then it's his own damned fault. It's not like parking a car where the car could be there for the next three hours, and you can't exactly wait for the driver to come back so you can park in the spot.

[Zixinus]

Not using a handicapped stall when you're not handicapped is more about being considerate and polite. If necessary, I see no reason for not using a handicapped stalls when the regular ones are already occupied, unless there is a form of being handicapped that makes it difficult to keep it back. And if you are, then I think such a person would be wearing diaper already.

Then again, there is to consider that a wheelchair-bound person has to take more time to use, say, the toilet because he has to move the wheelchair around allot, use his hands to get pants off which is harder when you can't stand up, etc.

[Broomstick]

People in wheelchairs may or may not have equal capacity to "hold it" compared to normal people. Some may have great difficulty eliminating wastes, some may do so involuntarily. While there are various devices for catching "leakage", they do not function as well as normal sphincter muscles. A dislodged catheter can be a social emergency.

That said, there is NO law in the US that says handicapped stalls are for handicapped people only. A person in a wheelchair can't kick an able-bodied person off the toilet. Some business have only one or two stalls which are all handicap accessible.

Most people who aren't total dickheads will allow a visibly handicapped person to use the stall ahead of them. A lot of women will let pregnant women go to the front of the line, too. But if there's no person on wheels or crutches around there's no earthly reason to NOT use the stall.

[Turin]

That said, there is NO law in the US that says handicapped stalls are for handicapped people only.

As I mentioned before, local laws can be more restrictive than the federal requirements (it's called MRLS: More Restrictive Local Standard). You might be surprised what kinds of MRLS you'll run into in the construction industry -- the federal government makes specific regulation the province of the states, but some states kick that responsibility to the local municipalities. It's entirely possible that some podunk town in the middle of nowhere has such a law, even though it would clearly be stupid for all the reasons everyone's already mentioned. So it's a stretch to say there's NO law in the US, but as I said it's not the federal standard. And again, Canada is a whole other ballpark and they might be smart enough to not let the city council of Bumfuck, AL to decide building codes.

It occurred to me after posting that I have seen buildings that have "reserved policies" on accessible restrooms. These are typically large office buildings where 1) everyone is employed by the same employer who also manages the building, and 2) the building is older and so instead of upgrading the existing restrooms the owner decided to create a separate unisex single restroom for handicap accessibility. In those cases, the owners of those buildings had "RESERVED" under the universal wheelchair logo on the door. Totally different situation than a publicly available restroom in a store, of course.