SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread II

[Raj Ahten]

Stas, since your fleet is apparently only waiting for a good time to leave the PRSF without getting attacked (according to your in game statements) Perhaps the FTO could escort your ships away from the area? (this option may shortly be moot depending on what Beowulf does).

The genie is out of the bottle now anyway, the FTO was going to issue an ultimatum to Stas to leave the area or be attacked. That was before shots were fired though. Now SeigeTank has changed the ultimatum to be against the PRSF, which I support.

As far as having a crisis at all and the FTO's involvement, I'm with Siege Tank on this. The FTO was bound to get into a tough spot with a great power eventually. That’s part of the charm from a storytelling perspective. It gives everyone something to do other than try to avoid war with Shep or jerk around with militias in the third world.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Shady, didn't mention it directly, but go pick up the false emperor, give him a show trial, and execute him. You have all the honors.

[DarthShady]

Shady, didn't mention it directly, but go pick up the false emperor, give him a show trial, and execute him. You have all the honors.

It will be a pleasure.

EDIT:

Stas, that is what I call Magnificent Bastardery.

[K. A. Pital]

Wait, so you downed 24 P-1000 Vulkan 3M70 Hypersonic heavy anti-ship missile? And downed 3 of them with Point-defense?

How fucking realistic is that?

OH FUCK. Sorry Beowulf. My bad.

I intended to use Klub SS-N-27. I messed up the NATO designations.

[Czechmate]

As a note, TJN vessels ARE armed with TASM missiles. They've had a neighbor with long-range antiship missiles for a while.

EDIT: Man, Stas. Just get out and finish your world tour already. That coup had no reason to happen, and the PRSF troops are weeks' march into western Tian Jiao. They won't be making it to safety anytime soon.

And I damn well intend to blast them to shit while they're still withdrawing. Until they make it to the border, they're fair game.

The same goes for the PN carrier group. Until they make it back to port they're fair game too. As are any PAF aircraft detected by my AWACS over Tian Jiao airspace.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Wait, so you downed 24 P-1000 Vulkan 3M70 Hypersonic heavy anti-ship missile? :? And downed 3 of them with Point-defense?

How fucking realistic is that?

OH FUCK. :shock: :roll: Sorry Beowulf. My bad.

I intended to use Klub SS-N-27. I messed up the NATO designations. :lol:

I was wondering what the FUCK you were thinking saying the SS-N-21 was faster than the Sandbox.

*sighs* That said, please post the stats of the ships so I can make sure they should actually be carrying Klubs and not SS-N-21's to confirm that I can actually let this be retconned, okay?

[Sea Skimmer]

Naval tomahawks? Wasn't that variant canceled because it was basically not any better than a Harpoon and probably had guidance issues, IIRC?

The anti ship TASM Tomahawk did enter service, but all service rounds were converted into land attack weapons in the 1990s. The guidance system is identical to that of Harpoon, and was simply dropped into the Tomahawk airframe, and that was the problem.

In the half hour plus it takes to target TASM, start volleying the things off one by one,
then have them fly all the way out to 250 nautical mile maximum range at 550mph, the target ship may move 15-20 miles away or more from its projected future location, unless it holds the exact same course and speed the whole time.

This movement was potentially enough to put the target out of range of the missiles active guidance radar when it activated. What’s more, Harpoon being only 80 mile ranged, the guidance system did not have a real INS system, it had a crappy facsimile of one which had a lot of drift. Didn’t matter for Harpoons 80 mile range, it sure did for Tomahawks 250. Neither Tomahawk nor Harpoon had a datalink at the time which would allow for mid course guidance to correct for changes in target course and for INS drift.

However much more recently a Harpoon II was unveiled which does have a real INS, and a 2 way data link allowing not only course corrections but also remote designation of which ship the missile attacks if it detects several targets. This could easily be put in TASM, and it could have been devoloped in the 1980s but it just wasn’t a high funding priority.

In terms of performance, Harpoon is a much harder target to shoot down because its smaller and performed more radical evasive maneuvers, but TASM has a bigger warhead and way more fuel to add to the fury if it hits.

200 of the things though, that would overwhelm almost anything if they actually arrived in a very compact timeframe, which is unlikely.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Naval tomahawks? Wasn't that variant canceled because it was basically not any better than a Harpoon and probably had guidance issues, IIRC?

The anti ship TASM Tomahawk did enter service, but all service rounds were converted into land attack weapons in the 1990s. The guidance system is identical to that of Harpoon, and was simply dropped into the Tomahawk airframe, and that was the problem.

In the half hour plus it takes to target TASM, start volleying the things off one by one,
then have them fly all the way out to 250 nautical mile maximum range at 550mph, the target ship may move 15-20 miles away or more from its projected future location, unless it holds the exact same course and speed the whole time.

This movement was potentially enough to put the target out of range of the missiles active guidance radar when it activated. What’s more, Harpoon being only 80 mile ranged, the guidance system did not have a real INS system, it had a crappy facsimile of one which had a lot of drift. Didn’t matter for Harpoons 80 mile range, it sure did for Tomahawks 250. Neither Tomahawk nor Harpoon had a datalink at the time which would allow for mid course guidance to correct for changes in target course and for INS drift.

However much more recently a Harpoon II was unveiled which does have a real INS, and a 2 way data link allowing not only course corrections but also remote designation of which ship the missile attacks if it detects several targets. This could easily be put in TASM, and it could have been devoloped in the 1980s but it just wasn’t a high funding priority.

In terms of performance, Harpoon is a much harder target to shoot down because its smaller and performed more radical evasive maneuvers, but TASM has a bigger warhead and way more fuel to add to the fury if it hits.

200 of the things though, that would overwhelm almost anything if they actually arrived in a very compact timeframe, which is unlikely.

Well, I think we agreed not to develop anything new until the game had started, and the problems with TASM will remain--the 200 missiles will come in disorganized, which gives the PRSF some chance of surviving the salvo since they'll be easier to engage and arrive sort of in staggered waves as they spread out and then lock onto their targets and come in on a sweeping arc of approaches. At that range not all of them will successfully engage, but most.

[Czechmate]

War's over. Nothing was accomplished at sea, or land, or sky, except for heavy losses on both sides. Time to move on, ladies and gentlemen.

EDIT: I think we should call it the Uranium War. Since that's what the PRSF was trying to sieze.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

War's over. Nothing was accomplished at sea, or land, or sky, except for heavy losses on both sides. Time to move on, ladies and gentlemen.

EDIT: I think we should call it the Uranium War. Since that's what the PRSF was trying to sieze.

I'm not going to let the official record rest so easily. If those were Klubs instead of Kh-55s, at least 3 are going to get through, and the ones shot down by point defence would have caused severe fragmentation damage. The TASMs on the other hand shouldn't have caused much worse damage than that either despite there being 200 of them.

[Czechmate]

I agree. the few that make it through should cause a good deal of damage. I propose the following as casualties;

-total loss of one Perry-class frigate of the TJN
-heavy damage to one Burke-class destroyer of the TJN
-moderate damage to one nuclear Burke-class destroyer of the TXN

Is this acceptable?

EDIT: with regards to the TASM strike on the PRSF group, I believe at least one Slava and one Neustrashimy should have taken heavy damage from sheer weight of missiles fired at them.

[Sea Skimmer]

As for Klub, no surface ship afloat in the real Russian or Soviet navy was ever actually fitted with carry it, but a number of paper designs which reached advanced stages of approval did, including the Anchar nuclear destroyer which I’ve adapted for Japanistan. Many old ships could easily be retrofitted to carry it as well, but the end of the Cold War killed that off.

The missile can be fired two ways, a dedicated VLS, or else normal Russian style slated box launchers, which can be retrofitted in place of any existing SSM of similar weight. Both the new slant box launchers and the VLS could be adapted to fire Klub or Yakhont missiles, though not both at the same time. A Sovremenny II was even proposed with the aft Ak-130 turret replaced with a VLS for 24 such missiles, while a smaller upgrade which simply replaced the existing Sunburn missile racks with those for the new missiles.

[RogueIce]

And immediately make a paper tiger out of an organization founded with the explicit goal of keeping the Great Powers off our continent? Yeah, that sounds like a fantastic plan... That Shinra naval base in Baerne is bad enough, we don't need another, particularly not of such an obvious powermonger.

For the sake of accuracy, my base in the Vineyards and not Baerne.

[Czechmate]

I doubt the PRSF could afford Klubs. Even with Stas giving them a reacharound.

EDIT: ...but for the sake of ending this debate, I'm willing to concede they were.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I agree. the few that make it through should cause a good deal of damage. I propose the following as casualties;

-total loss of one Perry-class frigate of the TJN
-heavy damage to one Burke-class destroyer of the TJN
-moderate damage to one nuclear Burke-class destroyer of the TXN

Is this acceptable?

Yes.

EDIT: with regards to the TASM strike on the PRSF group, I believe at least one Slava and one Neustrashimy should have taken heavy damage from sheer weight of missiles fired at them.

The Neustrashimy's would have been in the forward arc based on Stas deployment--he explicitly described that they were standing out ahead of the main squadron. So that's two crippled and burned out frigates (think Belknap here) and some light fragmentation damage to either a 956 or a 1164, Stas' choice depending on the layout of the inner screen.

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm not going to let the official record rest so easily. If those were Klubs instead of Kh-55s, at least 3 are going to get through, and the ones shot down by point defence would have caused severe fragmentation damage. The TASMs on the other hand shouldn't have caused much worse damage than that either despite there being 200 of them.

A Kh-55 anti ship version has never existed nor did a surface ship fired one. Air, submarine and land launch for land attack only, until recently only with a nuclear warhead too. Klub is tricky, because it has four versions, two of which are anti ship, two are ASW. One anti ship version has a 200kg detaching mach 2.9 rocket propelled warhead (dashes the last 20km with most of the airframe discarded, subsonic cruise) while another flies subsonic the whole way but has a 400kg charge and is rather like Tomahawk TASM.

The version with the rocket warhead would totally defeat any kind of gun based CIWS and is faster (I suspect mach 2.9 is not sustained, but still) then any other Russian anti ship missile down low, the next fastest is around mach 2.5 and most of the supersonics are mach 1.5-2.2.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

A Kh-55 anti ship version has never existed nor did a surface ship fired one. Air, submarine and land launch for land attack only, until recently only with a nuclear warhead too. Klub is tricky, because it has four versions, two of which are anti ship, two are ASW. One anti ship version has a 200kg detaching mach 2.9 rocket propelled warhead (dashes the last 20km with most of the airframe discarded, subsonic cruise) while another flies subsonic the whole way but has a 400kg charge and is rather like Tomahawk TASM.

The version with the rocket warhead would totally defeat any kind of gun based CIWS and is faster (I suspect mach 2.9 is not sustained, but still) then any other Russian anti ship missile down low, the next fastest is around mach 2.5 and most of the supersonics are mach 1.5-2.2.

I was going on the later of the two versions, of course, and I imagine Stas was too--that's why everyone was surprised when the rockets suddenly lit off, they had been thinking they were subsonic missiles before that.

[RogueIce]

As to "why did Westchester/Tian Jiao go to Tian Xia and not the FTO" I'd think it would be fairly simple.

The PRSF launches a sudden and surprise invasion to grab resources, and all of a sudden the CSR wants to set up a naval base? That could be seen as a pretext to give the CSR an excuse to back up (covertly or overtly) the PRSF attempt to take over Westchester.

Now, if the CSR did indeed have such motivations, who is more likely to deter them? The FTO, a continental alliance of mostly smaller nations, or Tian Xia, a country at the same level as the CSR (though economically better off) and with the support of a large alliance behind them (though whether the MESS would have gotten involved, I should point out, was NOT set in stone and was, indeed, rather unlikely, at least from a military POV).

So regardless of whether real, tangible support could have gotten there quicker, the fact that Tian Xia was far more likely to place a check on any possible CSR ambitions was probably worth more than any immediate aid from PRSF attacks.

[Beowulf]

Well, the tomahawk attack is a moot point since even though TXN does have TacTom, that's still not actually an anti-ship missile. The primary anti-ship weapon remains Harpoons (though they are rather advanced variants capable of VLS launch). The A-7F is rated to carry 6 of them, and I have 28 in the air for the counterattack, resulting in a a 224 missile counter attack, plus whatever the TJN aircraft are carrying. And it would be a fairly concentrated salvo, not the dribs and drabs that a tomahawk attack would be.

As for the ASM attack, I gave Stas the benefit of the doubt, which is why the Frigate still got hit. The other two were targetted on ships which had RAM, which although it's point defense, is not gun based.

Damage to the Taskforce 8 ships doesn't make sense, since there's no reason for a carrier to hang around close to shore. So, of course, the TXN carrier didn't. Taskforce 4 is the Marine unit, and would have reason to stick around close to shore, and since it's where Stas thought the carrier would be, and has a ship which looks alot like a carrier, it got hit.

EDIT: damn you guys post fast. Klub has a much shorter range than the listed launch distance is the problem. GS.org lists the supersonic version of 3M54E as having a range of only 220km which is about 110 nautical miles. It's stated that they launched at 310 miles.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, the tomahawk attack is a moot point since even though TXN does have TacTom, that's still not actually an anti-ship missile. The primary anti-ship weapon remains Harpoons (though they are rather advanced variants capable of VLS launch). The A-7F is rated to carry 6 of them, and I have 28 in the air for the counterattack, resulting in a a 224 missile counter attack, plus whatever the TJN aircraft are carrying. And it would be a fairly concentrated salvo, not the dribs and drabs that a tomahawk attack would be.

As for the ASM attack, I gave Stas the benefit of the doubt, which is why the Frigate still got hit. The other two were targetted on ships which had RAM, which although it's point defense, is not gun based.

Damage to the Taskforce 8 ships doesn't make sense, since there's no reason for a carrier to hang around close to shore. So, of course, the TXN carrier didn't. Taskforce 4 is the Marine unit, and would have reason to stick around close to shore, and since it's where Stas thought the carrier would be, and has a ship which looks alot like a carrier, it got hit.

Well, most of the damage was to two TJN ships anyway. So you can assign the TXN ship that was damaged as you see fit, really. The Harpoon salvo would be a more serious issue, though at this point the engagement is fairly inconclusive regardless.

[Czechmate]

I don't believe retroactively claiming to have conducted a harpoon counterattack will accomplish anything, Beo. They took their bruises, we took ours. TJN lost a Perry and took heavy damage to a Burke from those supersonic ASMs the Slavas fired.

[Beowulf]

I don't believe retroactively claiming to have conducted a harpoon counterattack will accomplish anything, Beo. They took their bruises, we took ours. TJN lost a Perry and took heavy damage to a Burke from those supersonic ASMs the Slavas fired.

Stas is assuming I have TASM because I have Tomahawk, when the Tomahawks are land attack missiles. I explicitly list my Tomahawks as the E models, when TASM was the B model only. This is reinforced in that TLAMs are listed in the ground attack section of the munitions list, while Harpoons are listed in the anti-ship section.

Stas could have asked me what type of anti-ship missile I used, but instead decided to assume something. That's his bad.

[Czechmate]

I have TASMs. I've lived next to a country with long-range heavy antiship missiles for a while, so I have continued production.

EDIT: dude, get on AIM.

[Norseman]

Gah! I never seem to have time to write any replies to various operations! However am doing quite a bit of stuff in Velestria, so hopefully you won't blow the place up before I wake up tomorrow.

[Master_Baerne]

Gah! I never seem to have time to write any replies to various operations! However am doing quite a bit of stuff in Velestria, so hopefully you won't blow the place up before I wake up tomorrow.

With Shep and Sea Skimmer in the place? I wouldn't count on it.