[Discussion]N&P Cleanup

[Coyote]

A plebe posted this earlier; I would have posted it here then but I was waiting for permission:

You guys are arguing among yourself about problems that can be dealt simply by enforcing existing policy. Me too posts and the such are already covered under PR5,PR12,PR13. Stupid thread titles can be covered with an Op/Ed tag as already mentioned, or simply expanding PR11. Vendettas as covered under DR2 should simply be cracked down upon, even when it's prominent members doing it. The last suggestion roundup was on page five. The only thing suggested there that isn't covered under enforcing existing rules is the Op/Ed tag.

I think the best thing would be for the senators/mods to all calm down, and have the mods simply enforce existing rules.

I don't have a real opinion on Mod shakeups/changements but I doubt anyone does except that mods in N&P could do with being more active.

[Coyote]

As for the rest of it, Lonestar can go shove a flagpole up his ass since he's got a pair of quotes in his signature designed to take a stab at me (with an amazing inability to fuck up the typing while mocking a typo) along with an unhealthy predisposition towards the right to shoot the fuck out of people I get to consider him a rightwing cuntface.

I looked. He has ONE quote, which is your own words tossed back at you where you advocate the killing of police officers as a "pre-emptive meeasure of self defense". Something I find hypocritical considering your criticism of "right wingers all wanna shoot people".

Have you even answered his PMs where he asked you for clarification of your remarks, or are you going to continue to sit up here at your unassailable ground where he can't respond and take cheap potshots?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I have of course been personally offended in this thread by Keevan and accused of being a genocidal racist, despite the fact that I tried to stay out of this shitfest, and I just want to observe that anyone who can follow me over the course of years and realize my changes and shifts in politics can understand that isn't true. I am not only respectful of "brown people" (you know, I live with someone who is Asian and took her family name and consider myself her sister) but quite capable of understanding evidence, conceding arguments, and learning from them and so substantially changing my political positions. At this point I no longer even consider myself a monarchist--that was a silly traditionalist and transitional phase. I suppose if I lived in France I'd vote for one of the successors to Rassemblement pour la République, finding 1960s vintage Gaullism to basically mesh with my present political views.

Considering that, beyond this, two of the traditionally rightward leaning members on this board, Phong and Beowulf, are Asians themselves, and I believe we have at least a couple of Hispanic sorts who also lean to the right, where exactly are you coming from, Keevan? Who gives you the right to simply declare that everyone who is "on the right" is a genocidaire? Are European conservatives and the GOP identical in your eyes, and how can you prove such a thing? Do you think all conservatives are Republicans or even intend to vote for McCain in November ? (I sure as hell don't.)

Frankly at this point I'd rather have Elfdart as a moderator than you. He is at least capable of stopping attacking people whose opinions have recognizably changed, whereas your brain is too primitive to do so. He also tends to behave more maturely in threads IMO. And generally seems to be capable of responsibility (he did go to the Democratic delegate convention for his local area) and occasional flashes of maturity.

[Keevan_Colton]

Here's a hint for the guilty of conscience, I never once mentioned you by name. Perhaps you're regretting some of your previous stated positions?
Feel free to have an argument with the ghosts in your head though.


The genocidal fuckwit that I was thinking of with my post was in fact our dear old Shep. Mr Nukey Nukey himself.

[Broomstick]

I am growing weary of this, and judging from the PM in my inbox today so are the plebes. I will, however, add one additional post.

It's no secret Ender and I do not like each other and disagree strongly on almost everything... but I have to agree with him entirely regarding Keevan Colton.

Keevan, your vitriol in this thread has been over the top, uncalled for, and frankly embarrassing on a certain level, particularly as the rest of us are at least trying to be civilized.

Perhaps you take the discussion on what to do with N&P personally, as a criticism of your moderating. Perhaps it is. I have no doubt you have acted as you thought best in that capacity. Perhaps the problems are those that would have occurred with a rise in post volume in any forum. Perhaps not. Frankly, I don't care, because as far as I'm concerned it's NOT about you, it's about improving what we have, not condemning or criticizing what we've had. I'm interested in moving forward.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Here's a hint for the guilty of conscience, I never once mentioned you by name. Perhaps you're regretting some of your previous stated positions?
Feel free to have an argument with the ghosts in your head though.


The genocidal fuckwit that I was thinking of with my post was in fact our dear old Shep. Mr Nukey Nukey himself.

Next time, you may want to learn how to include names in sentences before posting.

[Keevan_Colton]

As for the rest of it, Lonestar can go shove a flagpole up his ass since he's got a pair of quotes in his signature designed to take a stab at me (with an amazing inability to fuck up the typing while mocking a typo) along with an unhealthy predisposition towards the right to shoot the fuck out of people I get to consider him a rightwing cuntface.

I looked. He has ONE quote, which is your own words tossed back at you where you advocate the killing of police officers as a "pre-emptive meeasure of self defense". Something I find hypocritical considering your criticism of "right wingers all wanna shoot people".

Have you even answered his PMs where he asked you for clarification of your remarks, or are you going to continue to sit up here at your unassailable ground where he can't respond and take cheap potshots?

Ah, yes, so you cant read the quote he's got next to it from Shep then?

How about I put something in my sig like that about all military personnel and see if it gets you and your little mess buttbuddies up in arms?

Perhaps as well you missed the fact that it was those who support shooting criminals in a summary execution fashion that were most in support of the police? Perhaps there is a mode of argument that involves contrasting by absurdity?

Or perhaps you're just a fucking moron...it's so very hard to tell at this point. Have you even read that thread? Mike nailed my point exactly in it, the logic is the same as that for shooting criminals that are fleeing and that used to trumpet the castle doctrine...if there is a potential threat at some point, possibly, you can use lethal force to neutralize it now...without any particular concern.

This similarly goes hand in hand with the notion of excessive use of force...hmm....

[Keevan_Colton]

Here's a hint for the guilty of conscience, I never once mentioned you by name. Perhaps you're regretting some of your previous stated positions?
Feel free to have an argument with the ghosts in your head though.


The genocidal fuckwit that I was thinking of with my post was in fact our dear old Shep. Mr Nukey Nukey himself.

Next time, you may want to learn how to include names in sentences before posting.

Next time you might want to read the words written rather than the ones in your head. I havent even mentioned you by name in this thread and I sure as hell have mentioned shep already. The fact that you assume that the comment about genocidal fuckheads applies to you does indicate something of a guilty conscience...

Frankly I've been impressed with the progress you've made lately...but hey, why let reality intrude I'll leave you with the Wicker Man over there.

[Publius]

This remark has been withdrawn as contributing nothing to the main motion.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Hey Keevan, this was your EXACT quote:

No, it's just full of people that dont like each other on a very basic level. That's what happens when you mix people that believe in liberal values and people that want to nuke brown people.

And NOWHERE in that post does Shep's name come up.

You COULD have left gracefully with that last post, but you're so far into your meltdown you had to keep it going straight into the twilight zone of hilarity by having to defend yourself and somehow prove that Shep is both "people" and mentioned there.

No, the simple fact is that you're lying now.

P.S. gotten Hepatitis C from drinking blood at drug parties yet?

[Keevan_Colton]

You clearly stated:

No, it's just full of people that dont like each other on a very basic level. That's what happens when you mix people that believe in liberal values and people that want to nuke brown people..

You said there are no vendettas, and that the disputes in question are divided between liberals and genocidal racists (clearly stated in the plural). If he is the only one, then you knowingly made an irrelevant and inflammatory remark. If he is not, then the question still arises why you have permitted this to continue unhindered, and why you would conceal their identities.

Ah, Jesus Titty Fucking Christ...here comes the grammar police to nitpick the fuck out of something.

The simple fact is that if I had my way, Shep would be banned. Multiple times over. The other fact is that I try to be even handed when applying my power moderating and follow precedent, which means I'm stuck letting shit like that fly because I've been told it's A-OK from on high when Shep does it. I have principles and when it comes to my mod powers I don't apply a double standard.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

As long as we're going to listen to hypothetical "I wish I could do this" statements from people who don't have any power to put them in practice, Keevan, my hypothetical ideal situation is where you get replaced by Stas in N&P and don't even remain in the Senate!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Incidentally, I move that an Admin split the Keevan stuff from this thread and HOS it, and that someone lock the thread until that's happened--after Keevan has had his chance to Get In The Last Word, as he indubitably will now proceed to do. But there's no point in continuing this any longer, so I propose that the whole fiasco be eliminated from the Senate as quickly as possible.

Anyone second me?

[Publius]

Sir: Please note that the remark to which you have responded has been withdrawn. This senator does not propose to contest the question with you.

[Keevan_Colton]

Sir: Please note that the remark to which you have responded has been withdrawn. This senator does not propose to contest the question with you.

Accepted.

[Publius]

Incidentally, I move that an Admin split the Keevan stuff from this thread and HOS it, and that someone lock the thread until that's happened--after Keevan has had his chance to Get In The Last Word, as he indubitably will now proceed to do. But there's no point in continuing this any longer, so I propose that the whole fiasco be eliminated from the Senate as quickly as possible.

Anyone second me?

This senator objects to the consideration of the question. Keevan has as much right as any among us to contribute to this discussion, especially considering his particular responsibility as moderator. No vote was ever taken on the initial proposals, and his participation represents the single most comprehensive opposition.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The proposal is withdrawn.

[Ender]

Attempting to steer this back on topic, I wish to bring attention back on the topic of "cheap shots", such as those listed in the previous on topic posts. As both an issue of level of discourse, maturity, and just generally just being low I think that an addendum or rewording of PR5 is in order, and would be enforce accordingly. What say you?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Attempting to steer this back on topic, I wish to bring attention back on the topic of "cheap shots", such as those listed in the previous on topic posts. As both an issue of level of discourse, maturity, and just generally just being low I think that an addendum or rewording of PR5 is in order, and would be enforce accordingly. What say you?

Could we establish a comprehensive programme of rewording PR5 + a formal Senate motion appealing to Mike to double the number of moderators in N&P as our goal for a vote?

[Ender]

Attempting to steer this back on topic, I wish to bring attention back on the topic of "cheap shots", such as those listed in the previous on topic posts. As both an issue of level of discourse, maturity, and just generally just being low I think that an addendum or rewording of PR5 is in order, and would be enforce accordingly. What say you?

Could we establish a comprehensive programme of rewording PR5 + a formal Senate motion appealing to Mike to double the number of moderators in N&P as our goal for a vote?

Well add in the previously proposed changes about [Op/Ed], true crime etc and I think so.

[Pablo Sanchez]

No, it's just full of people that dont like each other on a very basic level. That's what happens when you mix people that believe in liberal values and people that want to nuke brown people.

This is a colorful exaggeration but your basic point is correct; there's a difference between a vendetta and disagreeing with someone every time you run into them in a thread.

It's as good as it has ever been. There seems to be some pining for a golden age when things were less spammy. Newsflash to the Senate, that was never the case.

I would personally disagree with you here. It's a subjective issue and can't be proven either way, but the substantive point is that, irrespective of how it used to be, it is now felt to be intolerable. Whether it really is worse, or whether it's exactly as it used to be, or whether it's better, it doesn't matter, because the new perception is reason enough to adopt a new policy.

My opinion is that a more aggressive moderation policy, with new moderators appointed to pick up the work, plus a more demanding standard of posting quality such as already exists in ARSE, should be sufficient to correct the problem.

[Keevan_Colton]

No, it's just full of people that dont like each other on a very basic level. That's what happens when you mix people that believe in liberal values and people that want to nuke brown people.

This is a colorful exaggeration but your basic point is correct; there's a difference between a vendetta and disagreeing with someone every time you run into them in a thread.

It's as good as it has ever been. There seems to be some pining for a golden age when things were less spammy. Newsflash to the Senate, that was never the case.

I would personally disagree with you here. It's a subjective issue and can't be proven either way, but the substantive point is that, irrespective of how it used to be, it is now felt to be intolerable. Whether it really is worse, or whether it's exactly as it used to be, or whether it's better, it doesn't matter, because the new perception is reason enough to adopt a new policy.

My opinion is that a more aggressive moderation policy, with new moderators appointed to pick up the work, plus a more demanding standard of posting quality such as already exists in ARSE, should be sufficient to correct the problem.

I've no objection to increasing the number of moderators, it is after all the most active forum on the board and several of the moderators are also supermods, which is not the case with some of the other forums. Some extra hands would be welcome. Stas would be a good choice in my opinion along with one or two more.

I am concerned that a tougher policy however will serve to kill off a lot of the activity, in what is one of the last really active parts of the board. I've had a lot of messages both via PM and IM on this topic. I usually let a little bit of light posting go by before acting partly to allow folk to vent their feelings on a subject. It can also lead, once folk have got that out, to interesting tangents. Take for example the Milligram experiment related tangent that's spun out of the Police Raid's thread, and which a more aggressive policy might have prevented from occuring by shutting it down for being particularly bombastic in its initial portrayal and also originally drawn from blog sources. Two things objected to here.

[Pablo Sanchez]

I am concerned that a tougher policy however will serve to kill off a lot of the activity, in what is one of the last really active parts of the board. I've had a lot of messages both via PM and IM on this topic. I usually let a little bit of light posting go by before acting partly to allow folk to vent their feelings on a subject. It can also lead, once folk have got that out, to interesting tangents.

This is a reason I would resist a specific, written rule on N&P posting, as opposed to a general guideline demanding "quality." It's simply not possible to articulate a good rule on content that can account for all the myriad possibilities, so it would have to be at the discretion of the moderator. A simple smell test for bullshit.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Demanding quality is the only thing I really want to see. I question the use of the op/ed tags myself, and don't think the True Crime stories necessarily shouldn't be in N&P. I mostly just want more moderators there, rather than administrative changes. Four new dedicated moderators, in part because of the supermods who are also assigned there having their attention split, would be to me ideal.

[Coyote]

Am not going to spend (more) valuable time getting into a tussle and rebutting Keevan. I too have gotten a number of PMs expressing dismay at the conduct here and I want to steer this back to the topic at hand which, I feel, is worthwhile.

An increase in the number of Mods in N&P is a new proposal, one which I support. It also seems as if the inclusion of [Op/Ed] thread leaders is popular.

Since we probably cannot digest the entire package deal of ideas all at once, I suggest we initiate movement on that which we DO agree on.

I therefore present the following motions:

1: We make it a policy to require [Op/Ed] leaders in thread titles where necessary.

2: A list of candidates be compiled to consider for modships in N&P.


[EDIT]: the new mod candidates is not to REPLACE anyone, at least not for now, but merely to compile a list of folks who it is felt would be good at the job.