SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread II

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

While the continent of Frequesque is most certainly living in interesting times, what does a backwater bum like me have to do? I'm stuck in the middle of the ocean about halfway between Velaria and the Old Continent, with Stas as my only significant neighbor...

What about those unclaimed lime-green islands off to the east of me? We can probably do something with those. I even have a few ideas for NPC nations to populate said islands.

[Steve]

I'm not sure if there's any plan for operating NPCs, though the western chains nearest your islands you can feel free to populate with polities of your own creation, IMHO.

[K. A. Pital]

Many old ships could easily be retrofitted to carry it as well

Sorry, I fucked up once more.

Klub has a much shorter range than the listed launch distance is the problem.

EDIT: Okay, I'm fucking confused, so let it be "Sandbox" for a while. I don't know the NATO proper designation for P-1000 Vulcan. In fact NATO didn't even know this rocket existed and was fitted until Cold War's end.

The "Vulcan" is not a Club. It's index is 3М-70 and it's a titanium-covered Mach 2-2,5 "Sandbox" derivative.

A swarm of 24 Vulcans, 12-12 from two various directions would be extremely hard to defeat, and don't forget the 6 AS-4 Kitchens launched by the Tu-22 wing, from yet a third direction.

I wanted to saturate the carrier's AA defenses and inner shield.

Anyway, let's assume they just launched "Sandbox" and never got any "Vulcans" from me. That would make it easier to retrofit, just two posts instead of three.

[Czechmate]

I already proposed the Tian Jian losses to Marina and she approved. Tian Xia lost nothing. I lost a frigate and suffered heavy damage to a destroyer.

The PRSF lost two frigates and took damage to a Slava.

That is all.

EDIT: I also assumed they launched Sandbox missiles. Their air-launched missiles, and the Tu-22s which launched them, were destroyed by F-14Es from TXS Vigilant.

EDIT 2: i forgot to mention the People's Air Force losses. i estimate them being as follows.

-17 MiG-23
-43 MiG-21
-13 Mig-29K
-6 Tu-22

no Bears were harmed in the making of this war.

[K. A. Pital]

Are Kitchen missiles easily destroyed by F-14Es? They are Mach 4 capable. I thought it would be harder.

I'm willing to accept loss of MiGs and Tu-22, but I have doubts F-14E could do it. Maybe SAMs on Burkes would be better?

[Czechmate]

Debate's over, Stas. The results have already been determined. And approved by Marina.

[K. A. Pital]

I'm not discussing the results, but trying to make them realistic.

Anyway, my next naval war will have thoroughly defined missile characteristics. Expect my Armory Bar to be posted into my OOB, so that people would know what they're dealing with.

[Czechmate]

I agree. the few that make it through should cause a good deal of damage. I propose the following as casualties;

-total loss of one Perry-class frigate of the TJN
-heavy damage to one Burke-class destroyer of the TJN
-moderate damage to one nuclear Burke-class destroyer of the TXN

Is this acceptable?

Yes.

EDIT: with regards to the TASM strike on the PRSF group, I believe at least one Slava and one Neustrashimy should have taken heavy damage from sheer weight of missiles fired at them.

The Neustrashimy's would have been in the forward arc based on Stas deployment--he explicitly described that they were standing out ahead of the main squadron. So that's two crippled and burned out frigates (think Belknap here) and some light fragmentation damage to either a 956 or a 1164, Stas' choice depending on the layout of the inner screen.

The debate is over. Beo has clarified that no Tian Xian ships were present with the amphibious task force the PRSF attempted to destroy. Therefore, the Tian Xian ship mentioned is no longer affected. All casualties are now mine. The two Neustrashimys are totalled. No point doing anything but scuttle.

Can we please, for the love of god or equivalent, move on?

EDIT: I too will be clearly stating my munitions.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm not discussing the results, but trying to make them realistic.

Anyway, my next naval war will have thoroughly defined missile characteristics. Expect my Armory Bar to be posted into my OOB, so that people would know what they're dealing with.

Stas, I did my best based on the stated missiles you said you launched. I was trying to go the extra mile for you on this one, but can you, like, just post a list of your missiles to me, please? I have some sources and I'll try to match western designations to them over the weekend, alright?

I'm very sorry about this, since it's a genuine issue with NATO terminology that isn't your fault.

P.S. Czech the reason is that he might have had the range to engage the Tianxia naval force anyway if he was using some of those other missiles. Though it's to late to much about it, granted.

[K. A. Pital]

No, I'm fine with the results, let's say the PRSF Armory is not in it's best condition and since they just used the Bazalt (Sandbox) alone, not even firing any other weaponry from their Sovremennys, it's feasible to have their shots shot down.

Tu-22s and MiG-23s were poorly maintained and thus fell victim to the TX/TJ airforce easily. Of the Kh-22s, only 1 or 2 have been launched before the aircraft were destroyed.

As for engaging Beowulf, spare that. I don't want to cheat in the game, i.e. inflict casualties on an actual player with an NPC nation that I don't care about even if it gets nuked.

Which brings us to question 2, Marina. Czech wrote an OOB for PRSF which is genuinely huge. Now, I want to politically secure the Livorno Naval base, but annexing the PRSF by force will lead (if successful) to the great expansion of my Navy and/or Army.

Can we capture NPC nations and claim their war assets as our own? What if we capture a real player nation in a war?

I need some clarification so that my political decisions don't intrude on regular game rules.

P.S. Let the PRSFN 1164 be damaged. Some minor info:

Missiles without USA/NATO designation:

Many missiles that never became operational did not receive USA/NATO designations.
R-15/D-3 An IRBM-range SLBM intended for Project 652 submarines.
D-7 An IRBM-range SLBM to replace SS-N-5. Cancelled.
D-8 An unsuccessful competitor to SS-N-8.
RSM-54M An SLBM under development for Delta IV submarines.
P-10 Buran An SS-N-3C competitor designed by Beriev.
P-20 Burya An ultra-long range cruise missile designed by Ilyushin in 1960.
P-25 An SS-N-2 competitor designed by Chelomey. Solid fuel, limited production in 1961-1962.
P-35 Bazalt An early supersonic land-attack cruise missile. Cancelled.
P-40 An anti-ship version of P-35 to arm converted Sverdlov-class cruisers.
P-170 A hypersonic target drone with a naval missile 'P'-designation.
P-1000 Vulkan A hypersonic heavy anti-ship missile to replace SS-N-12 and SS-N-19.

The P-1000 unlike many other in the list became operational and was fitted on a Slava class cruiser.
Here it's also with no desgination:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WMRUS_ASHmis.htm

Carrier Killers article from JED:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/naval- ... nline.html

P-500 Bazalt (SS-N-12 Sandbox) and P-1000 Vulkan

Presently, the P-500 Bazalt (SS-N-12 Sandbox) remains only on surface ships, but it is still one of the most capable Russian naval weapons. For a long time it was underestimated in the West. Since the missile was similar in appearance to the P-6/P-35 series, it was not even recognized for a long time, especially as the main armament of Echo II submarines.

Development of the intended P-6/P-35 replacement was initiated on the very same day as the P-120 Malakhit program (February 28, 1963). It was to be a surface-launched missile for both submarines and surface ships. To avoid any counterattack from a carrier group, the missile's range was to be 500 km, outside the usual operational radius of carrier-protection forces. At the same time, the guidance system and missile survivability were to be greatly improved and in line with evolving tactics. For the first time, it was assumed that any attack on a carrier group would be of a massive character. The tactics of such an attack is described later, but it is worth describing some P-500 Bazalt features beforehand.

The P-500 missile is similar in appearance to the P-6/35 and was powered by a liquid-fuel sustainer and solid-rocket booster. It has a speed of Mach 2 at high altitude and Mach 1.5-1.6 at low altitude. The flight profile of the missile varies from 30 to 7,000 m (low-low or low-high). Guidance is based on a digital INS on a gyro- stabilized platform and an active-radar seeker, which periodically switches to passive mode. For the first time, the missile was equipped with a digital computer (Tsifrova Vichislenna Mashina, "digital computing device"). The guidance system was also equipped with a datalink to communicate between missiles in a salvo, with a salvo consisting of eight missiles launched at short intervals. Usually, one of the missiles flies high (5,000-7,000 m) to pick up the target, while the rest remain at medium to low altitude with their radar seekers switched to passive mode. The leading missile then transmits targeting data to the others and allocates individual targets, with half of the salvo directed at the aircraft carrier and half at other ships in the area, one apiece. The onboard radar seekers are turned on at the last moment, just before reaching the target. If the lead missile is shot down, another one (in a programmed sequence) takes over and climbs to a higher altitude to continue directing the salvo. All the missiles have active radar jamming to disrupt any defensive action from fighters and shipboard air-defense systems. In addition, vital parts of the P-500 missile are armored to increase survivability.

Early trials of the first version of the P-500 system were conducted from 1969 to 1970, and from 1971-75, tests of the final version, with a 550-km range, were completed. The missile has a 1,000-kg HE warhead or a 350-kT-yield nuclear warhead. In 1975 the P-500 system was introduced to service on 10 out of the 29 Echo II-class submarines then in service. Nine of them received the Kasatka-B system for receiving data from the Uspekh and Legenda targeting systems (radar picture only), while one received the Uspekh interface only, without access to the Legenda space targeting system. Communications with targeting systems could be conducted from periscope depth with the antenna above the surface. Usually, Soviet submarines carried six conventional and two nuclear P-500 missiles on combat patrols. All of the submarines armed with P-500 missiles were withdrawn from service in the mid-1990s.

The P-500 Bazalt system, however, was not only used on submarines. In 1977 the system was accepted into service onboard Kiev-class aircraft carriers, four of which were built. The first three had a battery of eight launchers in the forward deck. The last ship of the class, commissioned the Baku in 1987, was built to a modified design and had no less than 12 launchers. All of these ships were withdrawn from service in the 1990s, but the last ship, renamed Admiral Gorshkov , is to be sold to India - after stripping off the P-500 missiles.

The only ships still armed with the P-500 Bazalt system are Slava-class cruisers. The first ship of the class, commissioned in 1983, underwent a major overhaul in the 1990s and was renamed the Moskva . It serves with the Russian Navy's Black Sea Fleet. The Northern Fleet operates the Marshal Ustinov , commissioned in 1986, while the Pacific Fleet operates the Varyag , commissioned in 1989. According to unconfirmed sources, however, the last was re-armed with the P-1000 system (see below). The first two ships (and possibly all three) have a tremendous battery of 16 P-500 Bazalt missiles, which can be directed at targets with the assistance of embarked Ka-27 Helix helicopters. A fourth cruiser, the Ukrainian Ukraina , was armed with the P-500 system. The ship was completed in late 2001, but after lengthy deliberations, it never entered service with the Ukrainian Navy. Declared spare, it now is to be sold abroad.

The P-1000 Vulkan was one of the most mysterious missiles in Soviet service. It was also the last Russian missile that required a submarine to surface for launch. Its existence was never discovered by NATO, despite the fact it was operational on five submarines. It was generally similar to P-500 but had titanium armor, and many of its steel parts were replaced by titanium ones. This enabled a significant decrease in launch weight. At the same time, a more powerful booster and a more powerful and more fuel-efficient sustainer turbojet engine was employed. This increased the range to about 700 km. Its development was initiated in May 1979, and it underwent tests in the mid-1980s. The P-1000 was introduced into service in about 1987. In the late 1980s, five Echo II-class submarines were modernized to accommodate the new P-1000 Vulkan system, but all five were withdrawn from service in the mid-1990s. Thus, it was in front-line service for only about seven or eight years (unless it has, in fact, been installed on the Varyag ).

I hope that helps, I'll be making a WARPAC Armory soon

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Which brings us to question 2, Marina. Czech wrote an OOB for PRSF which is genuinely huge. Now, I want to politically secure the Livorno Naval base, but annexing the PRSF by force will lead (if successful) to the great expansion of my Navy and/or Army.

Can we capture NPC nations and claim their war assets as our own? What if we capture a real player nation in a war?

I need some clarification so that my political decisions don't intrude on regular game rules.

Absolutely. If your Socialist Brothers decide to join you in the Union of Free peoples, etc, you can instruct their navy to head back to your ports and undergo refit. And afterwords, go right ahead and restore it to service in your colours.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Stas, how does the P-1000 Vulkan compare against the P-700 missile? Looks one heavy bastard, made of titanium, no less.

[Czechmate]

Stas, man, you control the PRSF as a puppet as it is. the junta-in-power owes its' control of the nation to you.

Outright annexation would be pretty lame, though. Even Beo is basically letting me alone once the war ends completely.

[Czechmate]

As for engaging Beowulf, spare that. I don't want to cheat in the game, i.e. inflict casualties on an actual player with an NPC nation that I don't care about even if it gets nuked.

Which brings us to question 2, Marina. Czech wrote an OOB for PRSF which is genuinely huge. Now, I want to politically secure the Livorno Naval base, but annexing the PRSF by force will lead (if successful) to the great expansion of my Navy and/or Army.

Can we capture NPC nations and claim their war assets as our own? What if we capture a real player nation in a war?

1) You did inflict casualties on a player. Me. But I don't hold it against you.

2) The OOB was huge because I didn't want the war to end quickly. You decided to have the PRSF 'declare peace', so to speak, so that's pointless. Although I have given IC assurance of no further offensive action on my part, I haven't accepted their declaration of peace. Also, they've taken enormous casualties due to their outdated equipment.

3) If you DO annex the PRSF, be prepared to finance the total un-fucking of their system. Their national debt must be enormous.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

FASTA People: Look I know we are all busy, but let's pick a place to put the damn launchpad. Naturally, I vote Jerusalem. So start voting damn it.

[Sea Skimmer]

Are Kitchen missiles easily destroyed by F-14Es? They are Mach 4 capable. I thought it would be harder.

Kitchen launched off large bombers was pretty much THE threat Tomcat and the AIM-54 Phoenix missile were meant to defeat. Several dozens of Kitchens would be a serious test of even the most modern air defence system, but just 6 of them would be swatted out of the sky, provide that the F-14s are already in the air.

The missile only reaches mach 4 in the final dive onto the target; the level flight cruise speed is around mach 2 at 16-24,000 meters altitude. It also has a low altitude mode in which it attacked at mach 1.2 and 500 meters, which doesn’t strike me as being too useful, but this feature was introduced specifically to improve performance vs. F-14s and AEGIS.

Keep in mind that by the late 1980s Soviet doctrine called for using 120 P-700 missiles (5 x Project 949 submarines worth) against a US carrier group to ensure both the F-14s and multiple AEGIS escorts could be overwhelmed.

Stas, how does the P-1000 Vulkan compare against the P-700 missile? Looks one heavy bastard, made of titanium, no less.

The missiles are pretty similar in capabilities overall, abet P-1000 is a direct upgrade of P-500 design, while P-700 was all new and introduced into service between the two. P-1000 reaches mach 2.8 at about 7000 meters and can fly 700km, P-700 reaches mach 2.5 at a similar height as well and could fly 550-625km. Both missiles could alternatively fly at about mach 1.5-1.6 at 100 meters altitude, this also reduces range. P-500/1000 have 1000kg warheads, P-700 had 750kg.

The key advantage of the P-700 and P-1000 over older missiles like P-500 and Kh-22 though was that they had top notch for the time digital guidance systems. That makes the guidance system way harder to jam and let the weapons employ much more advanced datalinks so they can share radar data after the first missile sees something to sink. A similar digital upgrade was recently announced for Kh-22 called Kh-32, among other things a new digital engine fuel flow control computer greatly extends range, but as far as I’m aware it is not yet in service.


Overall all these big mach 2 or so missiles are bigger then their effectiveness warrants, but if you do score a hit with one, its going to cripple anything less then a large aircraft carrier (which will still be forced into port), and I’d expect anything less then a cruiser to sink.

Smaller lighter missiles like Harpoon, Klub and to a lesser extent Yakhont don’t have as awe inspiring range, but you can carry far more of them and in general shear numbers are more important then anything else when launching an anti ship missile attack. Yakhont can hit mach 3.0 in level flight too. Its all the better if you combined missile types, like say diving semi ballistic anti radar missiles like Kh-15, low altitude wave skimming missiles like Klub, and a mid level very high missile like Yakhont and P-1000. This combination of threats at vastly different altitudes will make it much harder for radars to track them all, and will slow down engagement rates. However it also demands a great deal of coordination between launch platforms, or else the enemy will simply face each threat in turn, rather then simultaneously.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Smaller lighter missiles like Harpoon, Klub and to a lesser extent Yakhont don’t have as awe inspiring range, but you can carry far more of them and in general shear numbers are more important then anything else when launching an anti ship missile attack. Yakhont can hit mach 3.0 in level flight too. Its all the better if you combined missile types, like say diving semi ballistic anti radar missiles like Kh-15, low altitude wave skimming missiles like Klub, and a mid level very high missile like Yakhont and P-1000. This combination of threats at vastly different altitudes will make it much harder for radars to track them all, and will slow down engagement rates. However it also demands a great deal of coordination between launch platforms, or else the enemy will simply face each threat in turn, rather then simultaneously.

So essentially, you overwhelm the battlegroup with multiple flank attacks of all 3 types of missiles? Hmmm...

[Sea Skimmer]

Well you could easily subdivide missiles into more then three categories but that’s pretty must the jist of it, attack from multiple directions and multiple altitudes with at least several dozen missiles in each group. It would also really help to send your own fighters up to engage to defenders aircraft, and attempt to shoot down any active airborne early warning planes. Even if you don’t shoot anything down, the presence of your own fighters will keep a number of the enemies busy.

Carrier groups are far from invincible, but you just can’t expect to easily volley off a few dozen missiles and overwhelm maybe five billion dollars worth of SAM systems on the escorts and five billion dollars worth of fighter aircraft flying off that deck. This game just happens to have over 30 large carriers floating around, so I suggest investing in large ammo stockpiles if you want to fight them.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well you could easily subdivide missiles into more then three categories but that’s pretty must the jist of it, attack from multiple directions and multiple altitudes with at least several dozen missiles in each group. It would also really help to send your own fighters up to engage to defenders aircraft, and attempt to shoot down any active airborne early warning planes. Even if you don’t shoot anything down, the presence of your own fighters will keep a number of the enemies busy.

Carrier groups are far from invincible, but you just can’t expect to easily volley off a few dozen missiles and overwhelm maybe five billion dollars worth of SAM systems on the escorts and five billion dollars worth of fighter aircraft flying off that deck. This game just happens to have over 30 large carriers floating around, so I suggest investing in large ammo stockpiles if you want to fight them.

It would probably take several Tu-142s, Tu-160, submarines, and Kirovs to pull that off, and I will need to make a note on how many Kh-31s, Klubs and Yakhonts a Tu-142/Tu-160 can carry.

Which takes me back to an old news post... I intended build something like an Oscar II, but more modernised.

[PeZook]

Heh...Phong, don't let yourself be dragged into useless propaganda stunts, man.

They essentially did what the Soviets did during the space race to win propaganda points: built a jury-rigged barely functional space rocket which has nowhere near the power to actually reach orbit, spat it to 106 kilometers and then ejected the pilot, because their "spacecraft" can't survive re-entry, and the pilot has a very large chance of getting killed, too.

We could do the exact same thing with the first Sputnik rocket, which could loft 500 kilograms to orbit, but everybody is trying to actually do something useful with their space programs.

[MKSheppard]

They essentially did what the Soviets did during the space race to win propaganda points: built a jury-rigged barely functional space rocket .

Actually, it's more of a MiG-21 modified with a rocket engine dropped from a Tu22M to set an altitude record.

[phongn]

Heh...Phong, don't let yourself be dragged into useless propaganda stunts, man.

I know it's a stunt. But image counts for much more than mere reality.

[K. A. Pital]

Crimson Star Republic Navy Weapons:

Carrier weapons (Google Spreadsheet, you can make similar ones for your Navy)

More to come, but the missiles used here are roughly what you can expect to find on my other missile craft.

[Czechmate]

Fixed; your OOB calls the Vikramaditya-class a 'modernized Gorshkov'. You still aren't going to easily make off with the PRSF's vessel.

[K. A. Pital]

I called it "Gorshkov"-class since it's not yet clear the indians are actually buying it (essentially the Vikramaditya mod for Kiev class), and I don't have any proper Kievs, all 4 of them are modified.

Oh, and I so far decided against annexing the PRSF. That's too brutal even by Third World shithole standard, and it would be unfair to just seize their naval assets while letting their nation rot and starve under economic woes.

I'll help them economically and demilitarize them, like I said.