Can an atheist be a decent horror writer?

Pistolero · Post by **Pistolero** » 2003-01-29 08:20am

I am wondering if someone lacking basic religious beliefs could write a decent horror tale/novel/book... and by decent I mean honest... let's face the facts:

Stephen King, the Master of the Macabre, by far the most successful and widely read author of modern times, believes in God, even as he does not adhere to any particular denomination.

Clive Barker, IIRC, is Anglican.

H.P. Lovecraft, while not Christian, was into occultism and possibly devil worshipping (This as far as I know, and it is not a criticism)

Edgar Allan Poe, the father of modern American literature, was a deeply religious man...

Rephrasing, how can you honestly write about, let's say vampires, when the whole mythos is deeply rooted on religious dogmas and doctrines that we all know are bullshit? How would you fight a vampire knowing that a crucifix is nothing more than two sticks nailed together? How can you believable use science and logic to fight against something that defies both? How can you avoid the dishonesty of having your main character converted to christianity to fight the monster, or even worse, give him access to nuclear weapons to destroy Dracula since he knows religious artifacts would not be effective against the sucker (deus-ex-machina scenarios suck ass)

In other words, how can you use the supernatural to scare the shit out of someone while not achieving "suspension of disbelief" for yourself, the author?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-29 08:23am

Lovecraft was certainly NOT an occultist or Devil worshipper.

He was an Atheist since he was <10-years-old.

Please don't spout such garbage as fact.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-29 08:36am

If you have to believe in something to write about it, then are you basically saying that Star Wars novel writers actually believe in The Force?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-29 08:38am

I don't see an actual argument. What you're saying is so full of holes and gaps that it's humourous.

Do you know what an I-M-A-G-I-N-A-T-I-O-N is? Maybe you should try using yours sometime. That is, if you have one.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-29 08:52am

I like the religious aspects of fiction, look at NGE. Based solely on Christian teachings and Judaism, it actually makes sense in a sci-fi armageddon scenario.

The we have the Omen trilogy, The Exorcist and so on. These are all very good horrors that use the same religion.

Personally, it makes a change and is still very good whether you believe it or not, because aliens blowing the planet up all the time isn't as original as say some mystical messengers from God in the form of giant organic killing machines trying to make humanity extinct.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-29 08:55am

Um, no.

Eva uses religious icons and symbols solely for plot devices and elements. None of the Judeo-Christian items actually mean anything, which has been said by the creators.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-29 08:57am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Um, no.

Eva uses religious icons and symbols solely for plot devices and elements. None of the Judeo-Christian items actually mean anything, which has been said by the creators.

Shh, you're undermining my point!

It still has religious stuff in it, Heaven, God, Angels, I didn't mean it was a religious storybook, just that it had certain properties that relate to religion.

It is still firmly sci-fi but with a twist.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-29 09:26am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Um, no.

Eva uses religious icons and symbols solely for plot devices and elements. None of the Judeo-Christian items actually mean anything, which has been said by the creators.
Shh, you're undermining my point!

Heh, not really. Even though they didn't stand for or symbolise anything in Eva, their use showed an understanding from the creators.

IIRC, Anno spend about five years researching for Evangelion, which ranged from the generalities of Christianity and Judaism (which for the average Japanese, might as well be from another planet) to the complex workings of the Kabalah (which might as well be from another dimension).

Eva shows that someone can use elements that are totally foreign to the creators, while showing an understanding of them.

So, the OP is again wrong.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-29 09:30am

Meh, I tried my best.

*Goes to look for Asuka hentai*

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-29 09:38am

And according to the false concept in the OP, practically 99% of all Sci-Fi and fantasy literature would be void, since the creators obvioiusly didn't believe in what they were writing about.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-29 10:28am

Hell, I can write about beings from Roman mythlogy without any great trouble.. It's not as alien as Christianity's intricacies were to the Japanese, but I sure as hell don't believe Zeus is on Olympus Mons. Normal nonsense post..

Pistolero · Post by **Pistolero** » 2003-01-29 11:11am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I don't see an actual argument. What you're saying is so full of holes and gaps that it's humourous.

Do you know what an I-M-A-G-I-N-A-T-I-O-N is? Maybe you should try using yours sometime. That is, if you have one.

I do have imagination, thank you very much. And I did not mean belief in myths, but honesty. King's stories are good because they are honest. You get to know and care for the characters, and when you write you get to be a little like the figments of your imagination. Plus I did not post this to either start a flame war or antagonize anyone... nor I wanted to offend by saying that Lovecraft was anything but an atheist... until I read your post I had that impression.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-29 11:29am

Okay, now that I know that, I don't know what exactly you mean by honesty. In my experiance, Lovecraft is as honest as King.

And no offence about Lovecraft: it's just that you have to be careful what you say about him.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2003-01-29 11:41am

Does this mean Left Behind and Meggido represent the best of the best Christian themed films because they were created by fundamentalists?

Pistolero · Post by **Pistolero** » 2003-01-29 11:48am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Okay, now that I know that, I don't know what exactly you mean by honesty. In my experiance, Lovecraft is as honest as King.

And no offence about Lovecraft: it's just that you have to be careful what you say about him.

Let me give you an example. If you have read Dean Koontz, then you know he is a Catholic. Most of his stories transpire this, and most of his heroes are Catholic as he is, because that is his way of being honest. As much as I think Roman Catholics (and religious people in general) are a bunch of misguided ignoramuses, I do admire how those same beliefs impart, for lack of a better word, soul to his writings.

And by the way, you are absolutely right about Lovecraft:

"Lovecraft was a confirmed atheist, and it is important to understand his position on superstition and religion, as far as his writing goes: "I am, indeed, an absolute materialist as far as actual belief goes; with not a shred of credence in any form of supernaturalism -- religion, spiritualism, transcendentalism, metempsychosis, or immortality." " (From http://www.strangehorizons.com/2001/200 ... raft.shtml)

Pistolero · Post by **Pistolero** » 2003-01-29 11:51am

Galvatron wrote:

Does this mean Left Behind and Meggido represent the best of the best Christian themed films because they were created by fundamentalists?

I don't know about Megiddo, but even though the Left Behind flicks sucked some major form of pachiderm ass, the books are actually quite entertaining, once you learn to skip past the religious crap.

Spoonist · Post by **Spoonist** » 2003-01-29 11:54am

Poke

->CyberMacGyver
You don't need to actually be honest to give an honest impression.

By the logic of your argument, actual belief would be a hindrance to writing honest horror.
Since if you would be a christian writer you would know that such horrors do not exist according to your dogma.

Most writers only have one gender, even so some of them are credited by writing about characters from both genders in a convincing way.
The whole genre of science fiction and fantasy, takes place in worlds which does not exist, yet some are so convincing that people can have discussions about how such a society/world would respond to such and such stimuli.

To be a succesful writer you have to know how to convince people that your fiction is believable. This is easier if you have a questioning mind and if you can think outside of your own cultural box.

An example would be that you where convinced that Lovecraft would have had to be a occultist/satanist to be able to write the stories he did. That is the mark of a good writer, writing so convingly that people think that you have to know the subject that you are writing about.

Now more than 90% of the worlds population is believers in one form or another, so when you are naming the top ten of any field, chance alone would dictate that probably all of them are believers. So I think that yo are confusing cause and effect here...

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-29 12:19pm

What do you mean, precisely, be 'honest'? It is the goal of every author, from the guy in third grade managing a twelve page book about a two headed alien who forgets Jupiter is gas, to the greats of our and every other century, to make it 'real'. I can probably be reasonably convincing about Roman mythology, and I know people like Lovecraft can trick the mind for a brief time. It's what fiction is about.

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2003-01-29 12:29pm

I'm still trying to figure out what religion and horror have in correlation that makes a difference in how you write.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-29 12:33pm

It is easier to write about things you've experienced. Having said that, going to church on Sundays does not give you experience in dealing with armies of undead zombies, accursed mummies that rise from the dead, demon invaders from a parallel dimension, etc. So I don't see why a Christian would have an advantage over an atheist when writing about such things.

I would say that a Christian (or an atheist who has studied the Bible) would have a leg up if he's writing a story about Christianity, but not horror stories.

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2003-01-29 12:35pm

Ah-hah! I have it!

Roleplayers have the biggest edge. *nods proudly* Yep, that we do. You know why? Because of what Spanky said earlier...

IMAGINATION

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-29 12:37pm

Kelly Antilles wrote:Ah-hah! I have it!

Roleplayers have the biggest edge. *nods proudly* Yep, that we do. You know why? Because of what Spanky said earlier...

IMAGINATION

Soon we will rule the fiction shelves! Bwahahaha!

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-01-29 12:40pm

Darth Wong wrote:It is easier to write about things you've experienced. Having said that, going to church on Sundays does not give you experience in dealing with armies of undead zombies, accursed mummies that rise from the dead, demon invaders from a parallel dimension, etc.

Indeed. In fact, going to a rave gives you better experience in mindless, undead zombies. Though some places do seem like they've been invaded by demons from another dimension (the Maharishi taking over Fairfield, or that rebuilt Mormon church in Missouri).

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2003-01-29 06:38pm

Imagination + Research = A good writer. Let me know if I'm off base on this.

XPViking

Malecoda · Post by **Malecoda** » 2003-01-29 06:55pm

CyberMacGyver wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I don't see an actual argument. What you're saying is so full of holes and gaps that it's humourous.

Do you know what an I-M-A-G-I-N-A-T-I-O-N is? Maybe you should try using yours sometime. That is, if you have one.
I do have imagination, thank you very much. And I did not mean belief in myths, but honesty. King's stories are good because they are honest.

This is a major flaw--it's only an opinion. It's my opinion that King books suck ass. I almost read the Tommyknockers, and I didn't give a shit abt any of the fuckers in it so I quit halfway. Barring The Shining, Stephen King sucks. In the Shining, he still babbles on for 3 pages abt the character's roots in the middle of a guy cleaning the gutters, but it was OK bec the story was good enough to make up for it. I can't think of a more boring, less scary author. Oh wait! Yes I can--Lovecraft. Fuuuuuck.