US Sec. Rice Meets With Gaddafi

[FSTargetDrone]

News you can use!

Condoleezza Rice's visit opens new era in US-Libya relations

Condoleezza Rice became the first American secretary of state to visit Libya in more than half a century on Friday, delivering a diplomatic dividend to the country's unpredictable leader Muammar Gaddafi.

By Tim Butcher, Middle East Correspondent

Last Updated: 6:12PM BST 05 Sep 2008

Miss Rice said her visit proved Washington was prepared to forgive former enemies even ones like Libya that perpetrated acts of terrorism that cost American lives.

By flying to Tripoli and shaking the hand of Colonel Gaddafi, Miss Rice effectively ended three decades of hostility between the oil-rich desert nation and America, an enmity that claimed lives in the 1980s when Libyan-backed terrorists perpetrated attacks such as the Lockerbie bombing.

"This demonstrates that the U.S. doesn't have permanent enemies," Miss Rice said.

"It demonstrates that when countries are prepared to make strategic changes in direction, the United States is prepared to respond.

"Quite frankly I never thought I would be visiting Libya and so it it is quite something.

"This trip is acknowledging how far the U.S.-Libyan relationship has come, but it is the beginning and not the end of the story.

After talks with Mohammed Abdel-Rahman Shalgam, Libya's foreign minister, she was due to join Col Gaddafi for iftar, the important ceremonial evening meal during Ramadan that ends the day's fasting during daylight.

Her trip comes after Col Gaddafi's regime publicly gave up attempts to create its own programme for producing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, a diplomatic coup achieved without the use of military force.

But while the state department boasts Libya as one of its successes in the Arab world, Col Gaddafi remains an unpredictable and enigmatic figure.

In comments made to the state media there was no sign he was anxious to cosy up to his former enemies in America.

"All we want is to be left alone," he said.

Col Gaddafi, a leader who straddles the divide between Africa and the Arab world, used typically colourful language to express admiration for Miss Rice in an interview last year.

"I support my darling black African woman," he said.

"I admire and am very proud of the way she leans back and gives orders to the Arab leaders.

"Yes, Leezza, Leezza, Leezza ... I love her very much.

"I admire her, and I'm proud of her, because she's a black woman of African origin."

Back in the 1980s Libya positioned itself as an extremist Arab nation sponsoring international terrorism in the pre-jihadist al-Qaeda age.

Attacks by Libyan-backed terror groups against US targets, including servicemen based in Germany who were blown up a nightclub, led President Ronald Reagan to famously describe Col Gaddafi as a "mad dog".

Washington responded to the terrorist attacks by sending US warplanes, taking off from bases in Britain, to attack targets in Libya and came close to killing Col Gaddafi himself.

Washington restored diplomatic ties with Libya in 2006, following Mr Gaddafi's decision in 2003 to publicly renounce terrorism and give up his country's weapons of mass destruction.

Miss Rice will be the first secretary of state to visit since John Foster Dulles in 1953, and the highest-ranking US official since then-vice-President Richard Nixon in 1957.

"In that period of time, we've had a man land on the moon, the Internet, the Berlin Wall fall, and we've had 10 US presidents," a State Department spokesman said.

Earlier this month, Libya agreed to pay compensation to families of the victims of the Lockerbie aircraft bombing, for which it formally accepted responsibility in 2003.

But concerns have been raised by Libya's failure so far to honour the compensation deal.

Miss Rice's visit was partly intended to be a reward for successful completion of the deal, but Libya has not yet transferred the promised hundreds of millions of dollars into a humanitarian account.

The US Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, David Welch, told Reuters that he was optimistic the transfer would happen soon but that Miss Rice would press Libya on this issue.

Talking with (former) long-time antagonists. How novel. Yet when Obama suggests it..

[Molyneux]

Don't you understand? It's only when Democrats do it that it helps the terrorists win!

In fact, any course of action taken by a Democrat is pro-terrorism. Do you love the terrorists, FSTD?

[FSTargetDrone]

Don't you understand? It's only when Democrats do it that it helps the terrorists win!

In fact, any course of action taken by a Democrat is pro-terrorism. Do you love the terrorists, FSTD?

Almost as I love communism and elites.

Seriously, how can the current administration, or more importantly, John McCain now criticize Obama for essentially wanting to do what Rice is now doing?

No, he'd rather talk tough about Iran.

[TimothyC]

Talking with (former) long-time antagonists. How novel. Yet when Obama suggests it..

Nice how you strawman the situation. Libya has already given up it's WMD programs, taken responsibility for the Lockerbie bombing, and given up terrorism. Yes the situation is exactly identical to meeting with the leader of Iran without major preconditions!

[Anguirus]

"This demonstrates that the U.S. doesn't have permanent enemies," Miss Rice said.

Execute the damned traitress.

Nice how you strawman the situation. Libya has already given up it's WMD programs, taken responsibility for the Lockerbie bombing, and given up terrorism. Yes the situation is exactly identical to meeting with the leader of Iran without major preconditions!

You know, I've always been quite curious about this. What exactly would those preconditions be?

I don't understand "Do what we demand, then we'll talk to you," and apparently most foreign leaders don't either. Notice how talking to them like they were adults got North Korea to disarm. And now the Bush administration is touting this as a major foreign policy achievement!

[Axis Kast]

Talking with (former) long-time antagonists. How novel. Yet when Obama suggests it..

Obama suggesting talks with N. Korea? With Iran? Just fine. There are plenty of issues to discuss with them, preconditions or not. I agree with Anguirus that they're likely to regard preconditions as unachievable barriers to useful discussion -- as humiliating concessions from which they gain nothing tangible.

However, when Obama suggests talking to "other" antagonists such as the Venezuleans and the Bolivians? It betrays a fundamental misunderstanding that, in Latin America, anti-Americanism is political theater. If Obama has substantive interest in changing our policy posture toward the area, which I think is commendable, that should be pursued. Not random negotiation or discussion when no issues are even on the table. That strikes me as walking into a room where there is a potential to lose ground and face. There is nothing, yet, to gain. Only something to lose.

[Anguirus]

Because god knows that if we lost face with some South American countries, thus would collapse the American Empire.

It's entirely likely that Obama's not an expert in South American politics. Hopefully he hires some damn good advisers. That's part of a president's job...no one can know everything.

[Axis Kast]

Because god knows that if we lost face with some South American countries, thus would collapse the American Empire.

The point isn't that stumbling in inter-American dialogue would be vastly detrimental to us. It wouldn't. The point is that it reflects poorly on Obama's skill as a potential diplomat, which the president surely is, if George Bush's gaffes are at all instructive. The Illinois senator genuinely feels that there is some benefit to placing himself in situations he doesn't need to endure.

And, of course presidents have advisers. But they can be quite wrong. And Obama has shown poor judgment on that count.

One major luminary on his foreign policy staff during this campaign was Harvard professor Samantha Power, a student of genocide who plays hard and fast on the heartstrings (sometimes on the facts) to encourage American involvement in places like Rwanda and Darfur. I'm not sure I've heard anyone at all espouse a plan that strikes me as plausible in solving Darfur's problems comprehensively. Some of Powers' colleagues do better than she does on that count, but their foci are different; Powers is a gadfly, not really a regional expert. The problem is that she was tapped for a major position and only removed after a misstatement that made Obama look bad.

[Mayabird]

The hell is this condescending "Miss Rice" crap in the article? "Miss" is a title you give to ten year old girls who just won a spelling bee. At the very, very least, it should be "Ms." since she's an adult. But even then, it's not really right because she has an official title. It's "Secretary." But even if "Secretary Rice" is too damn much for the writer to type, they could at least call her "Dr. Rice" as she has a Ph.D.

[FSTargetDrone]

The hell is this condescending "Miss Rice" crap in the article? "Miss" is a title you give to ten year old girls who just won a spelling bee. At the very, very least, it should be "Ms." since she's an adult. But even then, it's not really right because she has an official title. It's "Secretary." But even if "Secretary Rice" is too damn much for the writer to type, they could at least call her "Dr. Rice" as she has a Ph.D.

It's a British website, perhaps our friends across the pond routinely use "Miss" for any unmarried woman?

[Spyder]

Because god knows that if we lost face with some South American countries, thus would collapse the American Empire.

The point isn't that stumbling in inter-American dialogue would be vastly detrimental to us. It wouldn't. The point is that it reflects poorly on Obama's skill as a potential diplomat, which the president surely is, if George Bush's gaffes are at all instructive. The Illinois senator genuinely feels that there is some benefit to placing himself in situations he doesn't need to endure.

So you're saying, the US doesn't have a pressing need to have South American countries not hate them so why bother? You don't think there may be some future benefit here?

[phongn]

The hell is this condescending "Miss Rice" crap in the article? "Miss" is a title you give to ten year old girls who just won a spelling bee. At the very, very least, it should be "Ms." since she's an adult. But even then, it's not really right because she has an official title. It's "Secretary." But even if "Secretary Rice" is too damn much for the writer to type, they could at least call her "Dr. Rice" as she has a Ph.D.

It may just be the Telegraph's in-house style and in the UK, "Miss" may not have the diminutive connotations it has over here in the US. Further, is it such a horrible thing to expand "Ms" into "Miss? "

That said, it's quite common for newspapers to refer to someone as Mr, Mrs, or Ms - no matter their official title. The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and the Economist all refer to President Bush as "Mr. Bush," for example.

[Axis Kast]

So you're saying, the US doesn't have a pressing need to have South American countries not hate them so why bother? You don't think there may be some future benefit here?

That isn't what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is that, barring a raft of new policy initiatives that require consultation with Latin American partners, the United States doesn't have any need to expose itself to condescension or attempts to extract concessions from antagonistic leadership in Venezuela or Bolivia, where scoring points against American policy is good sense, domestically. Why try to talk when there isn't anything on the table?

It's somewhat like dealing with the Russians over ABM. If you have a grasp of the particulars of the situation, it becomes obvious that Russia has nothing to fear from the ABM system, and won't have anything to fear for some time to come. As designed, the technology isn't even intended to deal with Russian capabilities. Certainly, Moscow will have plenty of "lead time" if that changes. Russia has other interests in opposing ABM. Some of these have to do with the manner of deployment -- involving stations in traditional Russian spheres of influence -- but a lot are tactical. So long as the Russians can convince important people and groups that ABM is detrimental to their interests, they might be able to gain concessions we shouldn't need to give.

[Mayabird]

Question to any Brits who may wander in: is it true and I'm just overreacting? I've only seen "Miss [name]" used for prepubescent girls in recent literature.

Also, "Ms." isn't expanded into "Miss." It's supposed to be a female equivalent of "Mr." since it works for both married and unmarried males.

[Masami von Weizegger]

Question to any Brits who may wander in: is it true and I'm just overreacting? I've only seen "Miss [name]" used for prepubescent girls in recent literature.

Irish, if that counts enough.

It's generally true, at least back in the "old country", that 'Miss' is used for any unmarried female although I still find it odd she's referred to as Miss Rice rather than her title/occupation.

[Terralthra]

Question to any Brits who may wander in: is it true and I'm just overreacting? I've only seen "Miss [name]" used for prepubescent girls in recent literature.

Also, "Ms." isn't expanded into "Miss." It's supposed to be a female equivalent of "Mr." since it works for both married and unmarried males.

In most style guides, "Mrs.' and "Miss" presuppose marital status. The former is married, the latter is unmarried. "Ms." is marital-status agnostic.

[Sea Skimmer]

Talking with (former) long-time antagonists. How novel. Yet when Obama suggests it..

But you see, not that I necessarily agree with all of this thinking, I don’t since the more we know the better we can defeat people if worst comes to worse, but the difference is Obama wants the US to go to nations hat in hand and ask other nations to change their ways. Libya meanwhile was basically ignored by the US for over a decade, then came to the US hat in hand and proposed a reparations deal for the Lockerbie bombing which some pretty reasonable strings attached. The US ignored it, but then Libya literally handed over the equipment of its nuclear program no strings attached, and other stuff was given a go head. Now, with the Lockerbie deal concluded Libya is offering to settle claims against other bombings. This all pretty much the best way ever for relations to work from a Republican standpoint, short of Qaddafi converting to Christianity. The US does whatever the fuck it wants and other states fall in line.

It also helps that Qaddafi is one nutty man who rules his fairly small population unquestioned and feel so secure he drives his own car around the capital. Crazy he might be, but it’s not that hard to deal with a lone nut. Iran and North Korea have to be handled differently since both nations have governments that split power between numerous individuals who will never all agree on much. Fearing the US is about all they actually agree on and I wouldn’t count on any change in US leadership to change. I don’t blame them for that either.

Syria is probably the best bet for engagement, other then a few irrelevant clashes in the 1980s the US and Syria have never had any direct conflict, and both Israel and Syria are now making tentative steps towards resolving the status of the Golan. It’s ruled by a dictator, but while his power is by no means absolute, his military backers aren’t going to turn down a reasonable deal, like say the demilitarization of the Golan with the land returning to Syrian civil control.

[Tatterdemalion]

It's generally true, at least back in the "old country", that 'Miss' is used for any unmarried female although I still find it odd she's referred to as Miss Rice rather than her title/occupation.

True, you can generally get away with using Miss over here, although I've always been taught to use Ms when letter writing. The Telegraph's a particularly old-fashioned conservative broadsheet though, so maybe they don't follow political correctness (not an insult) quite so rigidly.