Nemesis (RE3) vs Big Daddy (Bioshock)

[Setzer]

If it came to a fight between these two, who would win?

The Nemesis, from RE3, has no armor, but can absorb significant damage. Often a weapon will appear to have killed it, but only temporarily. It has a rocket launcher, a tentacle attack that can infect targets with the T-virus, and incredible strength.

Let's compare:

The Big Daddy is a heavily mutated human in a metal diving suit designed to resist bullets, explosions, and water pressure 6 miles beneath the ocean. While vulnerable to grenades, rockets, or armor piercing bullets, they can absorb significant damage even from these weapons before dying.

Electricity can stun a Big Daddy, but like with other weapons, it can take a lot before finally dying.

There are two types of Big Daddy. The Bouncer model has no weapons besides an arm mounted drill, and its amazing strength. The Rosie model has a rivet gun that fires rivets and proximity mines.

Scenario 1: Big Daddy in Racoon City. There will be zombies, but no human survivors.

Scenario 2: Nemesis in Rapture. There will be splicers, but no guarantee that they will only attack the Big Daddy or Nemesis.

[Molyneux]

Big Daddy is essentially immune to zombie attacks, I'd say - but Nemesis' durability is insane. Simply insane. Didn't it take multiple direct hits from that Paracelsus cannon thing without dying?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Pretty much. And that was after he lost his head and fell into a trash compactor. Had the nuke not hit, I'd almost expect Nemmy to come back from even that. Only Birkin ever showed that insane level of mutation and damage control.

[Molyneux]

Pretty much. And that was after he lost his head and fell into a trash compactor. Had the nuke not hit, I'd almost expect Nemmy to come back from even that. Only Birkin ever showed that insane level of mutation and damage control.

In that case, I'd give an unequivocal win to Nemesis, simply because while Big Daddy may be tougher and even maybe stronger, BDs don't heal from damage; Nemesis does.

[Covenant]

No debate at all, the Nemesis takes it due to the Rocket Launcher. Big Daddies are really tough, but I assume we would put game mechanics aside and give the Nemesis something more like a Stinger than the gasoline rockets it fires in-game. In such a case, it's really not even a fight, just an assassination mission.

However, if we remove the rocket, it goes to the Daddy. The Nemesis is an extremely poor combatant in RE3, nowhere near as nasty as Mr. X was or several of the other BOWs, but it has a lot of ressurection capability so I suppose that's something. I always took down Nemesis by dodging it's drunken fat-man slow punches and stabbing it to death, so perhaps I'm giving it a bit of a low-ball estimate here. It just never seemed anything other than a big well-armed infant to me.

A Big Daddy in Raccoon City would be confused and depressed without something to fix or little sisters to protect. You would be better off giving us a situation where the BD is trying to get a Sister back from Nemesis or something to give it a proper motivation, otherwise they're pretty aimless and stupid. Nemesis would just get on a roof and pop it. I don't think a single zombie type in RE could do anything to a Big Daddy at all. These are not exactly skilled combatants, even the advanced ones.

A Nemesis in rapture would probably run afoul of all the security and other splicers in the city, and quite possibly use that rocket in a situation that'll breach a corridor and drown the damn thing. A Big Daddy doesn't drown. The Splicers know better than to mess with a Big Daddy, and I've never seen an extremely motivated and unlucky splicer do anything to a Big Daddy except ornament the drill on it's arm after two seconds of screaming. I don't know how much damage we can assume the splicers would do to the Nemesis, I'm assuming not much but it would be in a more target rich environment than it's used to. If it saves the rockets for a real threat, I'm sure it'll have fun slapping people around until it dies, getting back up, and repeating it over and over, until it meets the Big Daddy and rockets the poor guy.

If we take away the rockets I say the Big Daddy will massacre the Nemesis. I'm sure the Big Daddy will stomp it flat, and once it comes back once, will just stomp it flat again. Unarmed Nemesis is no threat, and that big drill arm on the Rosie is more than sufficent to kill it the 'dodge and knife' way that I always did. Even it's secondary forms are pretty weak--the second one is pretty flimsy and falls apart a lot, which means we'd quickly be seeing the third one. That one can be killed similarly easily by a variety of small arms, so I don't have any reason to believe you couldn't do it with a giant drill then either. If you choose the "exterminate" instead of "run" option at the end of RE3, you actually do finish it off, and it shrivels up and turns black. That's usually the very end of life for any of the Resident Evil BOWs, of which we've seen several others die, so I think we have no reason to assume it'll come back after that.

[Stargate Nerd]

I always took down Nemesis by dodging it's drunken fat-man slow punches and stabbing it to death,

Look at Mr.Nerves-of-Steel here. I usually unloaded everything I had and tried to runaway.

[Covenant]

I always took down Nemesis by dodging it's drunken fat-man slow punches and stabbing it to death,

Look at Mr.Nerves-of-Steel here. I usually unloaded everything I had and tried to runaway.

[derail]
They want you to do that and they throw a lot of music and scary stuff at you, especially in the previous scenes where you jump out of windows and stuff... the game WANTS you to think he's really, really dangerous. You also see him kill some people, and yeah, if he gets you, it can really do some damage. But overall he's not hard to kill. Killing him takes too much valuable ammo to be worth it, since he's also just easy to run away from, but if you HAVE to you can just stab him to death.

When in doubt, just pause the game, think about it, calm down, and then fight the battle. RE uses shock to get you scared enough to ignore the obvious patterns, but Nemesis is arguably easier to kill with a knife than a zombie because his patterns are so easy to dodge and he doesn't just grab you if you dodge.

A lot of resident evil is like that. Once you realize how slow zombies are, or how pathetic most of the monsters are, it takes a lot of the horror out of it. Using the knife when you can gives you an ammo advantage that's greater than average--same with shotgunning to the head, which is easy if you aim up just as they lunge at you and it takes the head right off. You can avoid the threat of ever running into a Crimson Head in the remake just by doing that. My brother hated me because he was spending all this time running around away from Crimson Heads trying to find kerosene to light zombies on fire, and I was just strolling around popping zombies to permadeath at the cost of 1 shell per rotter.
[/derail]

[Covenant]

Nemesis being stabbed to death.

I mean, seriously. Without a rocket, this guy is FUCKED versus a Big Daddy when it comes to melee combat. Compare the fighting style Nemesis displays to the Mr. Bubbles we have below. Of course, remember, this is a super high-level genetic nightmare that's taking on the Big Daddy, but the important things to look at are the apparent speed of the guy as compared with the amount of mass he has to be dragging around. Also, look how far he throws the protagonist with a hit, the execution stab he gives the splicer who drops down (a thing that Nemesis would not appreciate during it's waiting to revive stages) and the amount of pain it shrugs off. It does dispatch your average genemodded genetic freak of nature in a single goodly stab, and this isn't even an elite.

Mr. Bubbles tearin' shit up.

It's set on fire until it's suit burns black, charges into machinegun fire, constantly electrocuted while taking shotguns to the face, and so forth. Big Daddy versus a Rocket Nemesis is like an Elephant versus a fat old man in a chair packing an Elephant Rifle, but you've gotta admit without the rocket it would be a really different looking fight.

[Admiral Valdemar]

It would be more fun seeing Birkin in all his forms fight instead. You had a variety of mutations there, and some of them simply were not ones you could dodge at a leisurely pace or kill with anything but major explosives.

[Ford Prefect]

Or, indeed, something like the Verdugo, because those things can move.

[Firethorn]

Of course, remember, this is a super high-level genetic nightmare that's taking on the Big Daddy, but the important things to look at are the apparent speed of the guy as compared with the amount of mass he has to be dragging around.

To be fair, I'd count the Big Daddy as a 'super high-level genetic nightmare'.

Remember what EVE does, and what they did to people to create the daddies.

Oh, and they have regeneration as well. After 'killing' one they'll get back up a few minutes later.

By the looks of it, I'd say the Daddy survives one rocket then proceeds to drill Nemesis to death.

[Setzer]

The Big Daddy doesn't regenerate, there's more then one in each level. Kill one and another comes by eventually.

I'm not sure how powerful Nemesis' bazooka is, but Big Daddies can withstand explosions. The proxy mines and heat seeking RPGs take a few hits to kill it. The frag grenades are obviously improvised from explosives and soup cans, instead of being purpose built weapons.

[Ford Prefect]

To be fair, I'd count the Big Daddy as a 'super high-level genetic nightmare'.

The Splicers are just nutcases with commercially available plasmids, and though this does make them pretty effective, the Big Daddies are the only people in Rapture who were ADAM'd from the ground up for combat. They are far and away more 'advanced' than basically any Splicer in the game, except perhaps Fontaine. The developers actually considered giving the player Big Daddy-esque powers after the conversion process, but decided that making all the work players put into their plasmids worthless was not the way to go.

[Setzer]

Besides, something with a Big Daddy's durability and combat plasmids would be a diabolical game breaker. And Fontaine's a pussy, really. I'm more afraid of an angry Big Daddy.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The Big Daddy doesn't regenerate, there's more then one in each level. Kill one and another comes by eventually.

I'm not sure how powerful Nemesis' bazooka is, but Big Daddies can withstand explosions. The proxy mines and heat seeking RPGs take a few hits to kill it. The frag grenades are obviously improvised from explosives and soup cans, instead of being purpose built weapons.

Nemmy basically has a Stinger, since the cutscene where Jill is about to get the evac chopper from UBCS at the church shows the missile fired from the launcher to be guided and launch just like a Stinger. Taking down a helo at least makes it far better than an RPG or any AP mine.

[Firethorn]

The Big Daddy doesn't regenerate, there's more then one in each level. Kill one and another comes by eventually.

I've beaten the game. I've sat there and watched the big daddy get back up after dealing with the sister. It takes a little while, and scared the *bleep* out of me, but he seemed to have forgotten about me. With no sister to protect, he just started wandering around.

Taking down a helo at least makes it far better than an RPG or any AP mine.

A properly placed RPG will easily take down a helo. Still, a Big Daddy takes a LOT of abuse.

[Covenant]

Well, the thing is, if we take the critters out of their games and stop using game mechanics to decide their abilities... as is the custom with these setups... we need to ask what would actually happen. A Big Daddy can take an obscene amount of damage, fall over, and get back up later--yes. But an RPG would melt through and core a tank, so I'm sure the iron armor of a big daddy would be similarly gutted. If we can assume that the Nemesis is using an actual military specification RPG or missile, and not a gasoline bomb rocket like he uses in his game outside the cutscene, then in any realistic fight the Big Daddy is probably going to go down if Nemesis gets a shot off.

Nemesis has pretty shit aim though, so if it's a situation like I said, with a Little Sister involved, then the Big Daddy might not let Nemesis get off a shot before dashing into melee. But since the Daddies are normally passive, he needs a reason to fight in order to stand a chance of surviving. They're insanely tough guys who are equally easy to ambush.

[Setzer]

I didn't give the Big Daddy a Little Sister to guard, since I figured the Zombies would be an everpresent threat, and the Big Daddy would basically be seeing red 24/7.

What if there were a Little Sister? I don't think it would find any ADAM in dead Racoon City people, so it would be with Mr Bubbles all the time.

[Rawtooth]

I would just like to point out that if you are taking the lower end of Nemesis being stabbed to death, you also have to take the lower end of a Big Daddy being beaten to death with a wrench.

[Stargate Nerd]

[derail]
They want you to do that and they throw a lot of music and scary stuff at you, especially in the previous scenes where you jump out of windows and stuff... the game WANTS you to think he's really, really dangerous. You also see him kill some people, and yeah, if he gets you, it can really do some damage. But overall he's not hard to kill. Killing him takes too much valuable ammo to be worth it, since he's also just easy to run away from, but if you HAVE to you can just stab him to death.

When in doubt, just pause the game, think about it, calm down, and then fight the battle. RE uses shock to get you scared enough to ignore the obvious patterns, but Nemesis is arguably easier to kill with a knife than a zombie because his patterns are so easy to dodge and he doesn't just grab you if you dodge.

A lot of resident evil is like that. Once you realize how slow zombies are, or how pathetic most of the monsters are, it takes a lot of the horror out of it. Using the knife when you can gives you an ammo advantage that's greater than average--same with shotgunning to the head, which is easy if you aim up just as they lunge at you and it takes the head right off. You can avoid the threat of ever running into a Crimson Head in the remake just by doing that. My brother hated me because he was spending all this time running around away from Crimson Heads trying to find kerosene to light zombies on fire, and I was just strolling around popping zombies to permadeath at the cost of 1 shell per rotter.
[/derail]

I've never actually been really frightened playing RE. It's just that Nemesis was such a tough mf to kill. Now Silent Hill on the other hand... *shudders*

But yeah 9 minutes is a little long for my liking even if killing Nemesis that way is pretty impressive.

[Darth Nostril]

I take it from the OP that this is game Nemesis not movie Nemesis?
Because the latter had nastily accurate aim and it took a helicopter crashing on top of him to kill the ugly brute.

[Base Delta Zero]

I would just like to point out that if you are taking the lower end of Nemesis being stabbed to death, you also have to take the lower end of a Big Daddy being beaten to death with a wrench.

A wrench being weilded by a genetically engineered supersoldier, yes.

[Ford Prefect]

I wouldn't call Jack a 'supersoldier'. He wasn't even all that 'engineered' either. Again, all his enhancements are those commercially available to almost any citizen of Rapture. And ofr that matter, he never demonstrates any particularly impressive strength; witness his beating of Ryan.

[Molyneux]

I wouldn't call Jack a 'supersoldier'. He wasn't even all that 'engineered' either. Again, all his enhancements are those commercially available to almost any citizen of Rapture. And ofr that matter, he never demonstrates any particularly impressive strength; witness his beating of Ryan.

Ugh. I'd rather not...that was such a disturbing scene.

Wasn't movie-Nemesis seriously injured by being impaled on a chunk of debris?

[Covenant]

Movie Nemesis also came equipped with remote controls and a minigun, and would rip a Daddy apart way more easily than the protagonist did. If you arm the Nemesis, he's just going to pulp Mr. Bubbles.

And yeah, you can beat the Big Daddy to death with a wrench, but you really need to have a really tricked-out set of plasmids to do it effectively, and it still takes around 20-30 seconds to do it and requires a lot of electrical shocking or the bloodlust tonic, which gives Jack a rather incredible regenerative ability of his own. Even though the plasmids were all commercially available there's no doubt Jack was pulling some really crazy shit by the time you can Wrench a Daddy to death effectively. Bees out of your arm? Psychokinetic flame? Telekinesis? Natural visual invisibility--and possibly infrared invisibility too, since we know the cameras of Rapture see via heat from the description of the Security Evasion plasmids. I'd say he's a supersoldier. This shit would make a member of FoxHound green with envy.

The real point of my posted vids though was to point out how amazingly slow and ungainly the Nemesis is, to demonstrate how poorly it would handle itself in melee combat. Unless the Nemesis can throw lightning, the Big Daddy won't be getting paused in place, so melee goes to Bubbles. We've seen a Rosie take a rocket to the face, but we have no idea what kind of rocket it was, and I think it's safe to assume the cobbled-together diver's suits that the Big Daddies have sealed to their bodies is not able to stop a tank-defeating munition, if we so choose to arm the Nemesis.