Does the average Imperial know Palpatine can use the force?

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2008-09-05 04:55am

I was watching Episode 4 the other night, and I remember Tarkin (I think Tarkin) told Vader something along the lines of "you're the only one left of that old religion." Obviously, he didn't know Yoda and Kenobi were still around, but does he know the Emperor is a Sith lord who uses the force? Is Palpy still hiding that post Eps 1, 2 and 3?

Just curious.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-09-05 05:16am

The average Imperial citizens knows nothing of Palpatine's being a member of the Banite Sith Order, nor that he possesses supernatural powers. Certain high-ranking Imperial officials do know, and some are also aware of his legion of lesser Darksiders (Inquisitorius, Emperor's Hands et al), though they are very much in the minority.

(Edited to fix a grammatic error, sprung from laziness.)

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2008-09-05 05:19am

Darth Hoth wrote:The average Imperial citizens knows nothing of Palpatine's member of the Banite Sith Order, nor that he possesses supernatural powers. Certain high-ranking Imperial officials do know, and some are also aware of his legion of lesser Darksiders (Inquisitorius, Emperor's Hands et al), though they are very much in the minority.

So would Tarkin know?

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2008-09-05 06:20am

Superman wrote:So would Tarkin know?

Although I don't remember anything about Tarkin being personally in the know, considering his rank and position within the Imperial state, it is entirely possible that he did. Grand Moff Trachta (Imperial Center Oversector) definitely knew and planned a coup against Palpatine around the time of ANH.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-09-05 07:03am

Superman wrote:So would Tarkin know?

As per Death Star, he apparently does not, strange though that may seem with him being such a close co-worker of Palpatine's (if Publius's analysis is correct, even co-writing fundamental political tracts with him). I myself have not actually read that novel in its entirety, however, so this is second hand.

With regards to the filmic quote, his statement may simply be speaking of the Jediite tradition (of which Vader was a former member), rather than the Sithian one or Force cults more generally.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-09-05 01:10pm

The average Imperial is skeptical that the Force is even real, so no.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2008-09-05 04:36pm

Darth Raptor wrote:The average Imperial is skeptical that the Force is even real, so no.

Um, Tarkin has alot of experience with Jedi prior to Episode 3.

Him holding Anakin Skywalker hostage during the events of Rogue Planet come to mind.

The Exact qoute was 'The Jedi are extinct. They are as far as gone out of the universe. You my friend, are all that is left of their religion."

That pretty much says to me he was referring to Vader's Jedi past, or at least his lightsaber abilities.

Beyond that, Tarkin may or may not know about the Emperor's true nature. Quite frankly, it probably didn't matter.

Swindle1984 · Post by **Swindle1984** » 2008-09-05 05:26pm

Um, the exact quote is "The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that is left of their religion."

If you're going to quote it, at least get it right.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2008-09-05 08:29pm

Solauren wrote:Quite frankly, it probably didn't matter.

You mean Palpatine probably didn't care at that point if someone like Tarkin knew or not?

Palantas · Post by **Palantas** » 2008-09-07 06:17am

If by "Imperial," you mean "Imperial citizen," then probably not.

If I'm not mistaken, Tatooine was part of the Empire in A New Hope, and there was an Imperial governor on the planet. The presence of dewback-riding Sandtroopers certainly suggests an Imperial presence prior to the arrival of Vader's task force. What, did they domesticate and train those animals in the time it took them to land from the Devastator and find the escape pod?

With Tatooine being Imperial property, you might consider Luke an "Imperial citizen." He had no idea what the Force even was, and Kenobi had to explain it to him. After this explanation, he did not reply, "Oh, so it's just like the Emperor."

This is by no means definitive, but I think all of this suggests that, at least at the fringes of the Empire's domains, a typical person has no clue the Emperor possesses Force power.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-09-07 10:25am

Tatooine is traditionally part of Hutt Space, which is an associated state of the Empire. It's not fully independent like it was during the Old Republic, and there was an Imperial garrison and governorship on the planet circa ANH. That said, it's hardly "typical" of the Empire's worlds.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-09-07 12:31pm

Darth Raptor wrote:The average Imperial is skeptical that the Force is even real, so no.

I've always found this incredibly hard to believe. Some Jedi were galaxy wide celebrities and to think that a galactic population can just all of a sudden forget about 4000 years of influence and history in the span of a little over 20 years is just fucking ridiculous.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-09-07 12:37pm

The galaxy is a big damn place with a long damn history. Planet Earth is teeny by comparison and there are people who don't know what happened during World War II.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-09-07 12:43pm

Anguirus wrote:The galaxy is a big damn place with a long damn history. Planet Earth is teeny by comparison and there are people who don't know what happened during World War II.

Sure there are tribes and shit that have no communication with the outside world, but that isn't who we are talking about. "Average Imperial". Find an average citizen that didn't know what happened during WWII 20 years after it ended. It would be like people just forgetting about the SS or The US Marines or the RAF.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-09-07 12:56pm

Find an average citizen that didn't know what happened during WWII 20 years after it ended. It would be like people just forgetting about the SS or The US Marines or the RAF.

The average person knows that the Jedi existed, they just don't know about their superpowers. And why would they? It would be sheer madness for the Jedi to publicize the various uses of the Force, or allow scientific inquiry. They don't have video cameras following them around.

Average Antilles just knows that an ancient sect of warrior-monks that supposedly had mystic powers helped Our Glorious Emperor beat the Damn Seperatists, and then rebelled against him and got wiped out.

I would find it harder to believe if the average person knew what a Jedi could do, in any detail. Quintillions of people have only seen a Jedi through the HoloNet, which during the Clone Wars was propaganda for one side or the other. If Hitler's office sent out a newsreel saying that the Waffen SS was crushing the Allies with their mind powers, and then a week later sent one out that the craven cowards of the Waffen SS rebelled and were put down by the Wehrmacht, which one would you believe?

I'll tell you which one a member of this board who'd never seen a Jedi would believe, if he had to pick one. The one without the mind powers.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-09-07 01:10pm

havokeff wrote:I've always found this incredibly hard to believe. Some Jedi were galaxy wide celebrities and to think that a galactic population can just all of a sudden forget about 4000 years of influence and history in the span of a little over 20 years is just fucking ridiculous.

Don't misunderstand. No one thinks that the Jedi weren't formidable warriors or even sorcerers. But in a galaxy where junkyards are full of Clarke-tech, it's hard to be impressed by the mean feats of the Jedi. "It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense," remember? Even after direct observations of Force-related phenomena (which are unspeakably rare, at that), leaping to the conclusion that "the Force is real and Jedi philosophy is true" ISN'T parsimonious. We can only make that conclusion because we're privy to "the whole story". So it's not so much a healthy skepticism in the paranormal as it is an institutionalized mistrust in the Jedi Order.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-09-07 01:24pm

Darth Raptor wrote:
havokeff wrote:I've always found this incredibly hard to believe. Some Jedi were galaxy wide celebrities and to think that a galactic population can just all of a sudden forget about 4000 years of influence and history in the span of a little over 20 years is just fucking ridiculous.
Don't misunderstand. No one thinks that the Jedi weren't formidable warriors or even sorcerers. But in a galaxy where junkyards are full of Clarke-tech, it's hard to be impressed by the mean feats of the Jedi. "It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense," remember? Even after direct observations of Force-related phenomena (which are unspeakably rare, at that), leaping to the conclusion that "the Force is real and Jedi philosophy is true" ISN'T parsimonious. We can only make that conclusion because we're privy to "the whole story". So it's not so much a healthy skepticism in the paranormal as it is an institutionalized mistrust in the Jedi Order.

It'd help if the Jedi were suitably aloof, secretive, and such before the Clone Wars and most of recent history - and if Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker are publicly well-known as conventional war heroes and field commanders in the Clone Wars, with their identity as Jedi being relatively unknown. LucasVision makes that harder to sustain though.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-09-07 03:51pm

They seem aloof and secretive to me. Ever seen a reporter inside the Jedi Temple?

As for Skywalker and Kenobi being war heroes, that hardly prevents the Emperor from reporting them dead after the "Jedi Rebellion." It also doesn't mean that Han Solo is a student of the Clone Wars to a sufficient degree that he can conclude the Force is what made them so formidable in combat.

The Emperor's extermination of the Jedi is well-known to have raised a few eyebrows and probably contributed to the growth of the Rebellion. That doesn't mean that everyone is keyed into the larger Light Side vs. Dark Side battle.

Hell, a non-Force sensitive could be privy to ALL of the facts and still dismiss the idea of the Force...rather, they could think certain people just have innate superpowers and make up a justification for them.

Palantas · Post by **Palantas** » 2008-09-07 04:10pm

Anguirus wrote: Hell, a non-Force sensitive could be privy to ALL of the facts and still dismiss the idea of the Force...rather, they could think certain people just have innate superpowers and make up a justification for them.

In A New Hope, while Luke was practicing his swordsmanship on the Millennium Falcon, he and Han had a brief exchange about the Force. Something like, "You don't believe in the Force, do you?", followed by "...it's a bunch of simple tricks and nonsense."

I may be reaching here, but Han--more travelled than Luke--seemed to be familiar with the concept of the Force. He just thought it was a bunch of bullshit.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-09-08 02:41am

Darth Raptor wrote:Don't misunderstand. No one thinks that the Jedi weren't formidable warriors or even sorcerers. But in a galaxy where junkyards are full of Clarke-tech, it's hard to be impressed by the mean feats of the Jedi. "It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense," remember? Even after direct observations of Force-related phenomena (which are unspeakably rare, at that), leaping to the conclusion that "the Force is real and Jedi philosophy is true" ISN'T parsimonious. We can only make that conclusion because we're privy to "the whole story". So it's not so much a healthy skepticism in the paranormal as it is an institutionalized mistrust in the Jedi Order.

Especially when we downright know that there is technology which can replicate Jedi powers. One such technology makes an appearance in the Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan: Last Stand on Ord Mantell limited series, where a conman uses a mind control device to impersonate a Jedi.