CrossoverManiac's little calculation...

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-29 12:47pm

I didn't really feel at first that I should personally post this thing here, but now, I do:
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=43532

In the last posts of mine I point out some evidence and the impact it has on his argument, and the reply is a "It looks like something right out of the EU, which is a load of crap"

What a fucktard troll...

Anyway, he's got it coming now...

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-29 01:47pm

Ok, according to Crosseyed_Retard:

- Shaped charges are weird, thus they cannot exist (seismic bombs)

Tell that to all those tank designers, they obviously fucked up.

- Diameter, length and mass are interchangeable (Death Star is as big as 99 ISDs?)

He obviously thinks that since the DS is about 100 km in diameter (according to some sources) and a Destroyer is about 1 km in length, then the DS has 100 times the mass of a SD?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-29 03:11pm

He'll ignore it, like he's ignored everything else before whne people point out he's wrong

I wonder if he'll have the gonads to come back here and argue, or lurk and hide at SB like he usually does.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-29 03:26pm

Not that CM actually makes a point here.....

Darth PhysBod · Post by **Darth PhysBod** » 2003-01-29 03:44pm

hmm, nobody has picked up on the assumption that the DeathStar uses its entire fuel supply in two shots.....

We have no idea how many shots it can fire without re-fuelling, thus we dont know the mass of the DeathStar + fuel.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-29 03:48pm

Evil S'tan wrote:hmm, nobody has picked up on the assumption that the DeathStar uses its entire fuel supply in two shots.....

We have no idea how many shots it can fire without re-fuelling, thus we dont know the mass of the DeathStar + fuel.

Which is also most likely some kind of singularity or ultra-dense exotic material. Does that factor in?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-29 03:56pm

No one. But Lucas did say Boba Fett is dead and only alive in the extended universe.

Funny for CM. Lucas' script says that it "you will find a new definition of pain and suffering as you are slowly digested over a thousand years."

Seems to indicate to me his script says you don't die immediately. Funny that way.

It is kind of clear Lucas was merely stating his thoughts that, in his movie, when he wrote it, Fett died. He signed off on EU stories w/ post-Endor Fett, and especially loved Dark Empire, which brought back both Palpatine AND Fett. So he is just stating his original intents, and how sanctioned EU stories have brought him back. Lucas' original intents included Palpatine's throne world in a lava cave, Lando from a race of clones, and Luke and Leia not being brother and sister, so I believe it can slide.

And someone post a version of what I said to contradict his B.S., please.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-01-29 04:35pm

Lucas has made it very, VERY explicit that his personal policy is to not get too worked up over the EU... in other words, he's leaving it up to the individual authors who expand on his creation.

As for Crossover Maniac... I'll deal with him.

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2003-01-30 06:31am

Evil S'tan wrote:hmm, nobody has picked up on the assumption that the DeathStar uses its entire fuel supply in two shots.....

We have no idea how many shots it can fire without re-fuelling, thus we dont know the mass of the DeathStar + fuel.

The high power output still means that the DS is under a great deal of stress during firing, and if it were to exhaust its supply to the level used in the calculations then the bullk effects would be as described.

Which is also most likely some kind of singularity or ultra-dense exotic material. Does that factor in?

The first is technobabble, the second would only alter the volume taken up by the fuel, rather than its mass.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-01-30 07:25am

The high power output still means that the DS is under a great deal of stress during firing, and if it were to exhaust its supply to the level used in the calculations then the bullk effects would be as described.

The problem is with CM's method of drawing a conclusion. He COMPLETELY ignores the possibility that there is an Unexplained Mechanism at work to counter-act the energy given off by the superlaser, while instead choosing to favor a hypothesis that some Unexplained Mechanism is used to LOWER the total energy output of the Death Star.

The former possibility requires the fewest number of assumptions, as we are already presented with technology in Star Wars that is capable of countering accelerative effects. The Death Star just requires a greater degree of this known technology.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-30 09:47am

Five possible hypotheses:

It used its engines to counteract the recoil. After all, those engines are capable of accelerating its entire bulk at significant rates, not to mention accelerating it for hyperspace jumps.
It was actually thrown back quite a bit; we just didn't see it because the power curve of the beam was not a square wave and the camera was on Alderaan for most of the beam duration.
It reversed its repulsorlift to latch onto the planet and keep itself from being thrown back. This would also help explain why there was no obvious net momentum of the planet in the direction of the beam.
Its complex mass is enormous, and it adjusts the phase angle of that mass to make itself far more real-massive when it fires the superlaser.
Iron is a volatile substance

Naturally, CM goes for #5 and pretends #1 through #4 don't exist (and let's not even discuss his idiotic math).

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-30 06:44pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Ok, according to Crosseyed_Retard:

- Shaped charges are weird, thus they cannot exist (seismic bombs)

Tell that to all those tank designers, they obviously fucked up.

- Diameter, length and mass are interchangeable (Death Star is as big as 99 ISDs?)

He obviously thinks that since the DS is about 100 km in diameter (according to some sources) and a Destroyer is about 1 km in length, then the DS has 100 times the mass of a SD?

Nitpick:

You're right about the lengths, but you listed the wrong units: kilometres instead of miles.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-30 11:32pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Ok, according to Crosseyed_Retard:

- Shaped charges are weird, thus they cannot exist (seismic bombs)

Tell that to all those tank designers, they obviously fucked up.

- Diameter, length and mass are interchangeable (Death Star is as big as 99 ISDs?)

He obviously thinks that since the DS is about 100 km in diameter (according to some sources) and a Destroyer is about 1 km in length, then the DS has 100 times the mass of a SD?
Nitpick:

You're right about the lengths, but you listed the wrong units: kilometres instead of miles.

No, I never think in miles. I'm pretty aware my numbers are quite off.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-01-31 08:40am

SPOOFE wrote:As for Crossover Maniac... I'll deal with him.

I saw that one. Ouch. And Crossover Maniac goes Deliverance. Yummy.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-31 02:50pm

Is it me or are the new generation of idiots we deal with all developing Walls of Ignorance of their own? Crossover Maniac seems to have the ability to never realize when his ass has been kicked.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-31 04:46pm

As successive iterations of Trek get more and more permeated with pseudoscience, the average scientific acumen of hardcore Trekkies will continue to drop, while their average self-perceived scientific acument will continue to rise. Basically, they know less and less, but think they know everything. Thus, they'll be making dumber and dumber claims as time goes on.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-31 09:14pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Is it me or are the new generation of idiots we deal with all developing Walls of Ignorance of their own? Crossover Maniac seems to have the ability to never realize when his ass has been kicked.

Finally decided to get an avatar eh Connor. Took you long enough

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2003-02-01 12:01pm

Darth Wong wrote:Its complex mass is enormous, and it adjusts the phase angle of that mass to make itself far more real-massive when it fires the superlaser.

Errrrrrrrrr.........

Isn't this technobabble ? And doesn't it imply that the GE could build ships made ( at least partly ) of tachyons or whatever exotic material ?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-01 12:22pm

The Nomad wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Its complex mass is enormous, and it adjusts the phase angle of that mass to make itself far more real-massive when it fires the superlaser.
Errrrrrrrrr.........

Isn't this technobabble ? And doesn't it imply that the GE could build ships made ( at least partly ) of tachyons or whatever exotic material ?

It is technobabble, but unlike Trek babble, this is valid stuff. It refers to stuff called Hypermatter(Yes, in RL it is called that), which weighs far more than it should. Yes, it implies the GE can build whatever they want from really exotic stuff.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-02-01 12:42pm

Darth Wong wrote:[*]It reversed its repulsorlift to latch onto the planet and keep itself from being thrown back. This would also help explain why there was no obvious net momentum of the planet in the direction of the beam.

IIRC, no ship larger than a VicStarII has a repulsorlift. And I doubt it would work from that far out.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-01 12:55pm

Eh, his stuff is easily ignored by the fact he got the mass way off. Each fuel tank has the mass of the ship condensed into a small sphere. Find how many fuel takns are on the thing and adjust the calcs, and the thing should probably not go flying like he says. Besides the fact he left off the mass of the atmosphere in the thing.

Lets face it, the DS is all kinds of screwy. It goes to hyperspace when it's own mass should generate enough of a grav well for it not to. despite having a direct opening to space through the reactor, the Emperor's throne room did not depressurize. It causes ring explosions in some things, and doesn't cause them in others. It can hold enough tibanna gas to fire alot of DS shots even though there is nowwhere on the ship shown to hold that stuff. The thing gets shaken by TLshots. Not alot makes sense.

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2003-02-01 01:26pm

The Nomad wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Its complex mass is enormous, and it adjusts the phase angle of that mass to make itself far more real-massive when it fires the superlaser.
Errrrrrrrrr.........

Isn't this technobabble ? And doesn't it imply that the GE could build ships made ( at least partly ) of tachyons or whatever exotic material ?

Yes, it's technobabble.

Build something out of tachyons, build something that cannot survive at rest without laughing in the face of physics. Build something partly out of tachyons, watch in delight as the tachyon part of the something demonstrates zero connection with the rest of the structure (or more precisely, watch as the real matter stays where it is and the tachyons zip off into la-la land and carry on with violating causality, being sold into slavery in New Age healing products and all manner of other delightful things).

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-02-01 01:39pm

Man, so this means the GE's medical tech is superior the UFP's?

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2003-02-01 02:38pm

Ender wrote:Eh, his stuff is easily ignored by the fact he got the mass way off. Each fuel tank has the mass of the ship condensed into a small sphere. Find how many fuel takns are on the thing and adjust the calcs, and the thing should probably not go flying like he says. Besides the fact he left off the mass of the atmosphere in the thing.

The mass of the atmosphere is insignificant. Even if air fills the 90% of the DS CM declared as not solid, you only double the mass of the not-fuel component of the DS. This would produce only about an 8-9% decrease in the velocity after firing.

The fuel mass on the other hand is a different matter; because so much is required for firing, it dominates the DS mass by three orders of magnitude. I think CM assumed enough fuel for two blasts (the observed number of blasts), and I assumed enough fuel for one (the worst case). In the worst case, I found a final velocity of 70km/s, which is not really a problem. If the DS is 75,000km away from the Falcon when it arrives (as CM claimed Curtis Saxton found) and the Falcon arrives "near" Alderaan, then the DS would only have to travel at 70km/s for 18 minutes to achieve that setup (enough time that it would plausibly need more to get clear for a jump, not so much time that it would have gone when the Falcon arrived).

Besides all this, the interesting problem is not how the DS stayed put (if it did), but the level of resistance to the stresses of firing that it demonstrated, which was more exceptional, and does not depend on the mass of the station. The bulk acceleration does depend on the (fuel+structure) mass; obviously, increasing the fuel mass decreases the bulk acceleration but does not affect the forces acting on (and so stresses produced in) the DS. The acceleration would be inversely proportional to the number of shots (and so the stored fuel) the DS was capable of in total. To make the accelerations consistent with the millions of g that get quoted for an SD's resistance to tidal forces, the DS would have to be capable of between 10 and 10000 shots given CM's accelerations and minimum 10 shots with mine.

The biggest assumption in all these calcs is connected with mass; that the energy is provided through a maximally efficient annihilation reaction. Since at least some sources (most?) reckon that the energy comes direct from hyperspace, the kinematics of the DS are then modified.

Lets face it, the DS is all kinds of screwy. It goes to hyperspace when it's own mass should generate enough of a grav well for it not to. despite having a direct opening to space through the reactor, the Emperor's throne room did not depressurize. It causes ring explosions in some things, and doesn't cause them in others. It can hold enough tibanna gas to fire alot of DS shots even though there is nowwhere on the ship shown to hold that stuff. The thing gets shaken by TLshots. Not alot makes sense.

How much mass is required to prevent a hyperspace jump? Also, there are no obvious engines, despite repulsors only apparently being of use near planets and most ships in SW using obvious reaction drives.

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2003-02-01 02:41pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:Man, so this means the GE's medical tech is superior the UFP's?

Damn right. Unfortunately, there is a price to pay; if you want a laugh, see the effect on unprotected minds:

http://www.tachyon-energy.com/newpage8.htm