Russia sends BCGN and DDG to Carribean

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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Surlethe wrote:That's true, but they can still target those missiles at other rivals; they are not a perfect shield, as they were during the Cold War when MAD doctrine was in place, but they provide some measure of unconventional protection. If Russia lacked a military completely and relied entirely on their nuclear deterrent, other nations might push it around, but nobody would dare become too large a threat.
Well, the trouble with nuclear weapons is that it is still largely regarded as a last ditch weapon. No one in the right mind would throw it about without thinking very hard. A rival nation could push its influence all the way to one's doorstep, but one can't do anything about it at all, since waving the nuclear spear will just give the rival an opportunity of making the other look irrational through some propaganda war. However, when the push comes the shove, and the United States finally has a 99% perfect shield, you have a problem. You have to adapt to the current environment. Nukes can only go so far.
I think it's premature to say that this is a brief respite from chaos and economic turmoil. As long as Russian exports stay strong, energy prices stay high, and the government manages the country relatively wisely, there's every reason to conclude that the current prosperity will not diminish greatly in the near future. As the rest of the world starts to circle the drain, they may be adversely affected, but will still remain relatively well-to-do as a whole country.
Well, it takes decades to rebuild the country, and a year for everything to collapse, especially with an economy that is hugely dependent on oil and not as well developed as it ought to be. Of course there's Peak Oil, which will come sooner or later. I guess you are right to say that they shouldn't have any problems and if they do invest in their economy, they should be alright in a few decades. I leave that to Stas to have a say about that.
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Post by Axis Kast »

The United States has more or less tried to push through its influence right into Russia's door step. That is itself cause enough to put up strong defence.
Which is only really important when the states in question border Russia directly, in which case the disparities in relative power are already massive. Georgia may even have been on the high end of the spectrum.

Leaving out, of course, China and the Ukraine. A direct confrontation with NATO is out of the question.

The question now becomes whether Russia will prefer a stronger military or a more robust economy, and the current administration seems to have decided that the latter is more important. They use the military, prudently, to score political victories.
As for International law, there has been precedent in which a state was oppressed sufficiently to grant it statehood. The case in point, would be E. Timor, via referendum, no less.
There's also been precedent against it -- in Darfur, for example, or in Tibet.

At the end of the day, Russia acted not out of principle, but out of interest, as all actors do. And even then, it wasn't to uphold an idea, but to answer a Georgian misstep (even stupidity).

The ultimate point is that Russia's leaders think they have bigger fish to fry, and I'm inclined to agree.
Russia is still a nuclear power, right? As long as they have that umbrella, they can modernize as slowly as they'd like without major interference from other world powers. That's leaving aside the fact that they're a major energy exporter, so anyone who tried to seriously mess with them would be frowned upon by those who rely on Russian energy, like Europe.
I agree with your point about the nuke umbrella.

I disagree that Russia's energy bludgeon is as effective as everyone insists. For a short-term tool, it's very powerful. But, eventually, the Russians will have to eat their own energy -- they're not going to refine, use, or sell all of what they aren't selling to Europe, and it's not going to be easy to pipe that to some other buyer, even the Chinese. In the mid- and long-terms, it's Russia that feels the crunch and the disadvantage with that approach.
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Post by Kane Starkiller »

One thing about Russia is that, while it's total population was decreasing, it's labor force was actually increasing and peaked at about 2006-2008. So from an economic perspective the demographics so far were beneficial. A big question is whether they can keep the high economic growth as the labor force itself is now starting to decrease.
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Post by Companion Cube »

This isn't exactly on topic, but does anyone have any good links for information about Russian military modernisation, or their military in general?
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Post by Lonestar »

Considering that the "Peter the Great" has been in "danger of exploding" in the past, maybe it'll do so in the middle of a Venezuelan port call and we'll blow up 2 birds with one stone!
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Post by Kanastrous »

...and the Russians will blame us, and go to war with cries of "Remember the Peter the Great!" or however one says that, in Russian...
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Post by Vympel »

Lonestar wrote:Considering that the "Peter the Great" has been in "danger of exploding" in the past, maybe it'll do so in the middle of a Venezuelan port call and we'll blow up 2 birds with one stone!
You know that was bullshit, right? One officer saying outrageous shit to embarass the CO of the ship, who was related to one of his rivals, or some such?
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Post by Col. Crackpot »

I long for the inevitable moment when hundreds of stranded Russian sailors stare longingly at their crippled rust bucket from the deck of an American warship.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

Either way, is there a rational reason they are doing this beyond "let's show that we're strong enough to send our cruisers on a long-distance blue-navy trip"? I presume they're not sending their ships all that way just to stroke Chavez's ego and domestic politics.
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Post by Kane Starkiller »

There is nothing really wrong with Kirov class except that there is a grand total of one operational.
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Post by Lonestar »

Vympel wrote:
You know that was bullshit, right? One officer saying outrageous shit to embarass the CO of the ship, who was related to one of his rivals, or some such?
In that case, the professionalism of the Russian Navy leads me to conclude that it would be a turkey shoot in a war.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Either way, is there a rational reason they are doing this beyond "let's show that we're strong enough to send our cruisers on a long-distance blue-navy trip"? I presume they're not sending their ships all that way just to stroke Chavez's ego and domestic politics.
It's a combination of skillful domestic presentation (as Stas Bush has said in the past, dislike for the United States now runs high, and a Russian presence in their backyard, however temporary, will be seen as the appropriate "medicine" for the U.S. boats sent to Georgia) and, much less significantly, a tip of the cap to an ally who is in the market for Russian military equipment.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Yeah, I doubt Chavez has had the favour to see a modernized Kirov cruiser with guns-a-blazing on target practice. Well, here's his chance. :lol: Let's hope he buys some more of those Sukhois after seeing our ships, since every little money he pays to Rosoboronexport will help to make the Su-35BM and other new machinery :)

P.S. I travelled around Black Sea Fleet ships whilst being in Sebastopol (Azov BDK and several rocket ships) - all of them are in perfect condition as far as I could gather from casual observation of open interiors, etc.

It was one aspect of my journey that left me quietly satisfied, despite the looming shrinking inventory of the fleet.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:Yeah, I doubt Chavez has had the favour to see a modernized Kirov cruiser with guns-a-blazing on target practice. Well, here's his chance. :lol: Let's hope he buys some more of those Sukhois after seeing our ships, since every little money he pays to Rosoboronexport will help to make the Su-35BM and other new machinery :)

P.S. I travelled around Black Sea Fleet ships whilst being in Sebastopol (Azov BDK and several rocket ships) - all of them are in perfect condition as far as I could gather from casual observation of open interiors, etc.

It was one aspect of my journey that left me quietly satisfied, despite the looming shrinking inventory of the fleet.
Were you allowed to take pictures? :P Would be cool to see these guys up close.
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Post by Stargate Nerd »

Stas Bush wrote: You should've said "more". More than enough. We can kick any military in the region should we need to, maybe except Ukraine or Belorus, who are basically the same Soviet Army we are facing.
Just curious, what nations can actually go to war with Russia and keep up besides the obvious ones like the US or China?
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Post by Vympel »

Lonestar wrote: In that case, the professionalism of the Russian Navy leads me to conclude that it would be a turkey shoot in a war.
You mean professionalism like letting civilians helm an SSN and sinking a fishing boat? Or letting the JFK get to such a bad state the commanding officer was releived? :P Shit happens.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Were you allowed to take pictures?
I won't be just posting around interior photos (the midshipman explicitly noted that this isn't a good idea), but I can show you what the current enemy table on large missile boats (1241.1 Molniya-class) looks like:
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Post by Vympel »

It's fun guessing what ships they are from the Russian captions. I spoted the MEKO obviously as well as Oliver Hazard Perry class :)
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Vympel wrote:It's fun guessing what ships they are from the Russian captions. I spoted the MEKO obviously as well as Oliver Hazard Perry class :)

The one directly above the OHP is definitely a Knox, which makes sense as the OHP/Knox's are both in service in some fair numbers in the Turkish Navy.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

You meant directly below ;) below OHP. ;)

Captions:

AH-204 AS, Destroyer "Gearing", frigate "Meko-200"
Sea Hawk, Destroyer "Allen Sumner", frigate "Burke",
frigate "O.H. Perry", rocket ship "Dogan",
Type 200 submarine, frigate "Knox", landing ship "Falster"-class,
landing ship "T.Parish"
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Post by Thanas »

Stas Bush wrote:You meant directly below ;) below OHP. ;)
Type 200 submarine
What are those? I cannot remember them.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Stas Bush wrote:You meant directly below ;) below OHP. ;)

Captions:

AH-204 AS, Destroyer "Gearing", frigate "Meko-200"
Sea Hawk, Destroyer "Allen Sumner", frigate "Burke",
frigate "O.H. Perry", rocket ship "Dogan",
Type 200 submarine, frigate "Knox", landing ship "Falster"-class,
landing ship "T.Parish"
Uh, Stas, please google pictures of an OHP and a Knox, and then call these guys up--if that's what the names say, they have the OHP identified as a Knox, and the Knox identified as an OHP.

Knox:

5in -- ASROC -- Mack (combined mast/stack) -- Hangar -- Sea Sparrow.

OHP:

Mk.13 (single-arm missile launcher) -- bridge with radome surmounting -- mast -- 3in gun -- funnel -- hangar.
Last edited by The Duchess of Zeon on 2008-09-10 04:18am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Oh, my bad. Type 209. ;)

P.S. Yeah, the inscriptions are in fact messed up ;) you could guess by reading (O.X. Perry and "Hoks" ;))
Last edited by K. A. Pital on 2008-09-10 04:22am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Also, the fact that they have Allen M. Sumner's and Gearing's mean this quite possibly hasn't been updated since the 80's or early 90's anyway.
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Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Stas Bush wrote:P.S. Yeah, the inscriptions are in fact messed up ;) you could guess by reading (O.X. Perry and "Hoks" ;))
Aren't those just saying O.X.Пeppи and Иoкc, as in O.H.Perry and Noks?
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