Palin Discussion [split]

[CaptainChewbacca]

Woah, I attended an Assemblies of God church for 6 years, and things never got that bad. There was quiet speaking in tongues, and occasionally someone would speak out and proclaim God's glory or whatnot, but they'd do it in english.

As far as tobacco/alcohol/dancing, I don't know of any prohibition in my church. They actually hosted dance fundraisers in the church sanctuary on a few separate occasions, and I even had beers with one of my preachers (the church had 3). 'Pentacostal' doesn't mean crazed zealot, nor does it have strict guidelines that must be followed.

Like I said, these guys got booted out of the AoG. I understand getting the AoG General Council to agree on anything, let alone kicking people out and then again condemning them, is rather like herding cats. Cats that are high off catnip and sugar.

Oh, ok, she USED to go to the Pentacostal church. I misread that. Of course, its REALLY hard to 'boot' a church, in this circumstance I'd guess they just got fed up and left. That's how the church I'm at right now got started.

[SirNitram]

Oh, ok, she USED to go to the Pentacostal church. I misread that. Of course, its REALLY hard to 'boot' a church, in this circumstance I'd guess they just got fed up and left. That's how the church I'm at right now got started.

No. I mean literally, the Third Wave was thrown out. Resolution 16, a followup to their casting out, has the relevent parts. Link

Deviant Teachings Disapproved

God is certainly moving in the hearts and lives of people desiring His presence and praying to see His power changing lives and reclaiming that which Satan has stolen or destroyed. But along with the genuine move of the Spirit often come teachings and practices which, if not discerned and corrected, will turn the genuine move of God into shallow and misguided emotional displays. Within teachings that add to or depart from biblical truth, there is usually a kernel of truth that gets buried under the chaff of human additions and unusual interpretations of Scripture. Though we dare not inadvertently quench the Spirit’s work in changing lives and calling the church back to its first love and passion, we must speak out with words of caution when departure from Scripture threatens the ongoing life and stability of local churches. We find cause for concern in the following areas.

1.

The overemphasis on identifying, bestowing, or imparting spiritual gifts by the laying on of hands and naming, supposedly by prophecy, specific gifts. The spiritual gifts are gifts of the Spirit, distributed as He "gives them to each one, just as he determines" (1 Corinthians 12:11). When the Spirit empowers the gift He bestows, there is no need for anyone to assume the Spirit’s role. As the Holy Spirit inspires the operation of the gifts, the identification and confirmation will be obvious to all without assistance from humans who would share some of the glory. The greatest tragedy of such a practice is a misguided human prediction, appearing to be a prophetic utterance, that leads a believer to expect abilities and an enduement he may never have. Paul says that gifts were bestowed through the laying on of hands (1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6), but the biblical record neither names a specific gift Timothy received nor implies that Paul or elders had imparted the gift. The Holy Spirit bestows the gifts, not the minister who prays the prayer for empowerment. Caution in naming specific gifts is advised until the Spirit confirms such a prophecy by the supernatural manifestation of the promised gift.
2.

The problematic teaching that present-day offices of apostles and prophets should govern church ministry at all levels. It is very tempting for persons with an independent spirit and an exaggerated estimate of their importance in the kingdom of God to declare organization and administrative structure to be of human origin. Reading in the Bible that there were apostles and prophets who exerted great leadership influence, and wrongly interpreting 1 Corinthians 12:28 [3] and Ephesians 2:20 and 4:11, they proceed to declare themselves or persons aligned with their views as prophets and apostles. Structure set up to avoid a previous structure can soon become dictatorial, presumptuous, and carnal while claiming to be more biblical than the old one outside the new order or organization. Proponents of apostles/prophets leadership stop too soon in their reading of the Ephesians 4 passage, overlooking the high calling of every office and minister of the Church: "It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ" (Ephesians 4:11,12, italics added).[4]

In Ephesians 2:20, Paul is talking about the historical fact of Jews and Gentiles having come together to form the Church. The aorist participle in verse 20 is best translated "having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone"–a past occurrence. The reference to apostles and prophets in Ephesians 3:5 speaks of their role in recording the inspired Scriptures as a past occurrence. The leadership of the local church, according to the Pastoral Epistles, is in the hands of elders/presbyters and deacons. These are the last of Paul’s epistles. There is no indication in these last writings of continuing offices of apostles and prophets, though the ministry functions still continue.

Prophets in the New Testament are never described as holding an officially recognized position as in the case of pastors and evangelists. They spoke prophetically to the body for edification and admonition. When they prophesied under the inspiration of the Spirit, their ministry was noted. They could indeed have been called prophets without designating them as filling an office. A self-proclaimed prophet who dropped into a local church setting would certainly have been suspect until he was better known. And to guard against such abuses, Paul taught that all prophetic utterances should be tested by the Body (1 Corinthians 14:29). The humility that Paul taught and modeled should be a primary character trait of every spiritual leader. We affirm that there are, and ought to be, apostolic- and prophetic-type ministries in the Church, without individuals being identified as filling such an office.

The Shepherding Movement, a term not used as frequently now as earlier, is still a practice with close ties to the apostle/prophet excesses described above. The random and wrongful substitution of mutually appointed apostles and prophets to replace existing divinely appointed and duly chosen leadership is a circumstance open to abuse. In the past the shepherding teaching led to an artificial pyramid system of accountability, with each person responsible to a personal shepherd. [5] The shepherd in turn is accountable to another shepherd for his guidance, accountability, and control. Although the example of Paul mentoring young Timothy is a good pattern for today, there is no biblical basis for a network requiring every believer to have a personal shepherd. The pastor, as shepherd of a local church flock, along with the spouse, can deal with even the most personal matters. The pastor in turn has a district superintendent, chosen for the position through a divinely blessed process, from whom help can be sought when needed. But to seek randomly, and with a sense of obligation, for someone to be a personal shepherd is not biblical. God-ordained leaders, chosen by Spirit-led colleagues seeking to build and edify the body of Christ, have the needed maturity, stability, and gifting by the Spirit.
3.

The practice of imparting or imposing personal leadings by means of gifts of utterance. Instances of Spirit-prompted personal advice, contrary to common sense yet definitely of divine origin, are so infrequent that recklessly giving personal prophecies soon becomes an abuse in the body of Christ. Though Paul and Barnabas were rightfully set apart by the Holy Spirit for an unspecified work (Acts 13:2), the two still had to hear the Spirit’s direction for their specific assignments. Their call was heard by the gathered believers while worshiping and fasting, and all present, including Paul and Barnabas, were obviously persuaded that it was indeed the Spirit speaking. If the "prophesied" words are from God, the Holy Spirit will also confirm the reality to the heart of the one set apart for the Spirit’s work.
4.

Wresting and distorting Scripture through interpretations that are in opposition to the primary meaning of biblical passages. The following teachings all have an element of truth in them, but as currently taught they are plagued with misleading and unbiblical elements and should be carefully avoided. In some instances a word or phrase is taken from Scripture, so it has the sound of biblical authenticity, but the application is a human creation rather than biblical truth. Many of them are reappearances of earlier departures from biblical truth, and in the future they could resurface as supposedly new revelations with different names.

Kingdom Now or Dominion theology. The thought that God’s kingdom can come on earth with a little help from humankind is intriguing to those who advocate this approach to impacting society. Rather than scoffing at the promise of Christ’s imminent return (2 Peter 3:3,4), this errant theology says that Jesus will not return until the Church takes dominion of the earth back from Satan and his followers. By taking control, through whatever means possible, of political, ecclesiastical, educational, economic, and other structures, Christians supposedly can make the world a worthy place for Christ to return and rule over. [6] This unscriptural triumphalism generates other related variant teachings.

Manifest Sons of God and Joel’s Army. These are some of the names used to describe those who have caught the vision of the Kingdom Now and are actively at work seeking to overcome the opposition and declaring Christians who hold a biblical understanding of Christ’s imminent return at any time to be cowardly for not joining the "anointed," as they sometimes call themselves. Without question, the Old Testament Book of Joel includes many endtime references. But the great and powerful army in Joel 2 is one of terrible locusts, an instrument of judgment on Israel. After Israel’s repentance, the army of locusts is destroyed by the Lord. Only after this destruction of the instrument of judgment does the promised revival come. "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people" (Joel 2:28). It is a complete misinterpretation of Scripture to find in Joel’s army of locusts a militant, victorious force attacking society and a non-cooperating Church to prepare the earth for Christ’s millennial reign.

Spiritualizing Biblical Events and History. There is certainly nothing wrong with finding parallels between historical biblical events and the application of biblical truth to life today–for edification and encouraging spiritual growth. But when those events are forced into a strained application of endtime events, thinking Christians should be on the alert. The Bereans of Acts 17:10,11 were commended because they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things [that Paul was teaching] were so." A teaching announced as the revelation of a new truth should be checked out very carefully. Pentecostals have become accustomed to anointed and dynamic preaching. But hearing a teacher speak with authority and self-confidence does not make the teaching true. It must always line up with Holy Scripture. Personal charisma is no substitute for biblical authority.

The Prosperity Gospel. The preaching of a prosperity gospel has increased giving to some programs, both legitimate and less than legitimate. God does bless faithfulness, but the blessing is not always financial gain. There are spiritual principles of sowing and reaping, but to draw money from the poor to support an affluent personal lifestyle is unconscionable. If we one day will have to give an account of every idle word (Matthew 12:36), it seems reasonable that we will have to account for every dollar solicited by dubious methods. A biblical teaching should be applicable in every neighborhood, culture, society, and country of the world. [7]

Birthing. Another example of a kernel of truth being pushed beyond propriety is the teaching that believers must "birth" new Christians into the Kingdom. Paul used the parallel very appropriately when he wrote to the Galatians, "My dear children, . . . I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you" (Galatians 4:19). But when the parallel is vividly described with the imagery of a mother in the process of delivery and believers are encouraged to intercede lying in the physical position of a mother giving birth to a child, truth is abused.

Generational Curses. It is true that Scripture speaks of the sins of the fathers being visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation (Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 5:9). In two of the three passages the visitation is targeted at those who hate God. We also know that heredity and environment do pass some things on to descendents. But the Old Testament passage should be read in the light of the work of Christ on the cross. Nowhere in the New Testament do we find any reference to this concept. Believers today do not live under a personal curse, even though the fallen creation around us still groans and suffers (Romans 8:22), awaiting the restoration of all things. Strong emphasis on a generational curse binds rather than delivers believers. Outside the body of Christ, there may be evidence of a generational curse, but for believers it is broken at salvation, even though there may be some natural traits or behavior patterns we must deal with through the help of the Holy Spirit.

5.

Excessive fixation on Satan and demonic spirits. "Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world" (1 John 4:4, KJV). There is a devil. He is working desperately as his opportunity of opposing God’s eternal plan is fast coming to a close. But he is no more powerful today than he has ever been. God is always in control and our emphasis should be on His omnipotence rather than on the evil work of oppressing, disturbing, destroying, and even possessing those who willingly play with Satan’s trinkets and give themselves to his control. Satan can never take possession of the child of God, though he may tempt and oppress. Believers cannot be demon possessed.

Fighting and exorcising demons is exciting activity. It attracts attention. Again, there is a kernel of truth. There is demon possession–not in everything that is amiss, but certainly in special instances that must be dealt with. Yet God in His wisdom has provided the tools for those special needs. While there may indeed be princes of darkness on assignment against cities, there is no biblical evidence that every city or geographic entity is ruled by a demon. The Holy Spirit may give a Spirit-filled believer the word of knowledge that a demon is in control of a person who needs deliverance. And in situations of strange behavior, the Spirit discerns for the Spirit-filled believer the source of the activity. But to conclude that every sickness, injury, birth deformity, and negative personality trait is caused by a demon is a misreading of Scripture. Sin has left its mark on the world, yet not in the form of a demon wherever we turn that must be named and exorcised.

We are engaged in spiritual warfare. "The devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). But that message was not given to frighten believers into going to extremes in making every daily activity a major struggle with the devil. As we put on the full armor every Christian should wear in spiritual conflict, we are promised that we will stand against the devil’s schemes (Ephesians 6:11-17). Covered by the blood of Christ and wearing our armor, we can then concentrate on the assigned task of going into all the world with the gospel. There may be some intense combat along the way, but the One who goes before us has already overcome.

But conservatives view a black man angry about inequality in the same light.

[Erik von Nein]

While what you say is true, remember, the only reason Obama publicly said a word about Wright's comments is because it became an enormous firestorm. If Palin's affiliations are put under such scrutiny, she may end up doing the same thing. I doubt it, but you never know.

Largely, yes, because it should have been something handled privately, anyway. But Wright wouldn't stop and the opposition was having a field day so there wasn't any other choice.

Palin has pretty much said she's not a pentacostal, assumingly to disuade people from making the same kinds of connections. So, if it became a bigger deal she probably would make public statements saying that she's not associated with them.

[CaptainChewbacca]

That's some hardcore Christianity. And the Third Wave is the group that founded Palin's Bible Church?

[SirNitram]

That's some hardcore Christianity. And the Third Wave is the group that founded Palin's Bible Church?

The specific history is this:

Latter Rain forms under Assembly Of God.

Assemblies of God go 'WTF, d00d, 2 X-TREME.'

Latter Rain goes 'Fuck you.'

Latter Rain group declared Heresy in 1949.

Third Wave distills out of Latter Rain.

Assembly Of God reminds everyone these fuckers are fucking insane in 2000 with Resolution 16.

[CaptainChewbacca]

And Latter Rain = Palin's current church?

[SirNitram]

And Latter Rain = Palin's current church?

All indicators point to it not just being her present Church, but the ones she's been in most of her life. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean she backs all this stuff. But there are two things I wish to point out:

1) The outrageous hypocrisy of the media and the GOP of going apecrap because Wright said bad things about the white male power structure, and demanding Obama disavow him, while smiling and waving this off.

2) The fact these people will only be encouraged by 'One of theirs' coming to power. Does that list look like people we want encouraged?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Fair enough. I go to a YEC church, even though I don't believe that particular part of their doctrine is true. Mostly I go because its a nice church with good folks who share most of my values. I definitely think she should be asked to comment on her pastor's beliefs, as I have had to do so with my friends on more than one occasion.

[SirNitram]

ACTUAL book bannings, through the normal channels of Wasilla, as recorded at Link This document is the official thing.

The only book on official record by Wasilla as being 'Challenged' during Palin is: America(The Book): A Citizen's Guide To Democracy Inaction, by Jon Steward(sic).

[Dominus Atheos]

I just skimmed this thread to see if there was a list of books that she tried to ban from the library at Wasilla. I saw no such list, so I wanted to post this here. Supposedly, it is a list of books she wanted the librarian to unass from the library because they were "offensive" in some way.


CAVEAT:

I got this list from an e-mail. It was sent to me through a chain of Democratic Party officials that I have worked with, off and on, and who helped me with my campaign for County Clerk, and when I was a campaign manager for a Democratic State Senator (Idaho actually has a few of 'em!). So while these people are well-connected, and have the ability to find this sort of thing, it is partisan and they will have an axe to grind. I could not, through a cursory search, find any independent verification. The list does seem to fit with the usual lists that Super-Conservitards typically want banned, but if anyone runs across any outside verification that would be reassuring so that I know that my contacts and I are not getting snowed.

If you ever get a political chain email, it's best to always check Snopes to see if the have a page on it yet, and if not to forward a copy to them. In this case, they already have a page debunking the list:

Link

[Ender]

Salon calls a spade a spade pretty well.

[Pulp Hero]

ACTUAL book bannings, through the normal channels of Wasilla, as recorded at Link This document is the official thing.

The only book on official record by Wasilla as being 'Challenged' during Palin is: America(The Book): A Citizen's Guide To Democracy Inaction, by Jon Steward(sic).

That made my day.

[Glocksman]

Remember that Alaska NG General who twice said that Governor Palin had no role in national defense activities, even when they involve the Alaska National Guard?
Well, he changed his story over the weekend and was promoted.

VoteVets has the story.

Simple summary:

1. On 8/31, AK NG General Campbell says: "he and Palin play no role in national defense activities, even when they involve the Alaska National Guard. The entire operation is under federal control, and the governor is not briefed on situations."

2. On 9/3, he then fleshes out the obvious when he is quoted in this Boston Globe article.

3.On 9/5, he completely changes his story.

4. On 9/8, he is promoted.


Wow....so this is how Palin operates in Alaska.
Hey Governor Palin! Send me one of those Permanent Fund checks and I'll start singing your praises here on SD.net.
Make it payable to 'Obama for America'.

[SirNitram]

Okay, it might be time to start a Palin Scandal Drinking Game. Only you might die from alcohol poisoning. The shit on the whole Troopergate mess takes a turn for the WTF.

Link

How bad do you have to be that your constant disparaging of the other parent in a custody battle has the judge telling you it's getting close to child abuse?

Court documents show that Judge Suddock was disturbed by the alleged attacks by Palin and her family members on Wooten's behavior and character. "Disparaging will not be tolerated—it is a form of child abuse," the judge told a settlement hearing in October 2005, according to typed notes of the proceedings. The judge added: "Relatives cannot disparage either. If occurs [sic] the parent needs to set boundaries for their relatives."

Now, I can't really imagine a family court judge being surprised by animosity. Custody battles are knock-down, drag out, brutal character assassination duels. And this one apparently felt it crossed unique lines.

[Metatwaddle]

Salon calls a spade a spade pretty well.

Some of that was good, but I thought parts of it were a stretch.

McCain has praised Turkey as an anchor of democracy in the region, but Turkey's secular traditions are under severe pressure from fundamentalists in that country. McCain does them no favors by choosing a running mate who wishes to destroy the First Amendment's establishment clause, which forbids the state to give official support to any particular theology. Turkish religious activists would thereby be enabled to cite an American precedent for their own quest to put religion back at the center of Ankara's public and foreign policies.

I highly doubt Turkish religious activists will be looking to America as an example or a precedent-setter on anything at all. They'll be fiercely anti-American.

That doesn't change the fact that Muslim extremists have repressive social views like Palin, though. One notable omission from the editorial is that members of Palin's church, like many Muslim fundamentalists, think that civilian deaths in Israel are God's wrath against people who haven't converted to their faith yet!

[Tribun]

After the most recent screamps from the GOP that everyone who dares to criticize is sexist, I finally see why they picked her. She says a lot of rubbish and as soon as anyone dares to call her bullshit, the GOP screames that they do so only because she is a woman. (I call it the sex-shield)

That she is an ultra-conservative asshole who just happens to also be a woman, is ignored.

[Elfdart]

Here's Palin's newest ad.

[Darth Wong]

Gina Gershon is still hot as hell.

[CJvR]

That she is an ultra-conservative asshole who just happens to also be a woman, is ignored.

Yeah, but it IS a good combination! Few Dems are likely to be up in arms about Palin's screwed up family and personal life and for the cons her stand on their issues is the main thing. A hard to crack combination when you mix in the gender vote, is it to late for Obama to pick Hillary for VP? That would have been a catfight of epic proportions!!!

[CaptainChewbacca]

Gina Gershon is still hot as hell.

See? This Sarah Palin nomination is a win-win for everyone. I doubt we'd enjoy Dana Carvey as Joe Lieberman nearly as much.

[Darth Wong]

Gina Gershon is still hot as hell.

See? This Sarah Palin nomination is a win-win for everyone. I doubt we'd enjoy Dana Carvey as Joe Lieberman nearly as much.

Bush was also a fantastic president for comedic purposes, but one should not pick leaders for comedic purposes.

[Braedley]

So, apparently Matt Damon isn't a fan of Palin. The video is a part of an interview he did with CBS, and although he commits a non-sequitor at the end, it's clear he doesn't want her anywheres near the white house.

[Zac Naloen]

It may be a non-sequitor, but it's a valid worry.

If she believes dinosaurs existed 6000 years ago or whatever she's an idiot. We don't want an idiot in charge of any countries nuclear codes.

[General Zod]

So, apparently Matt Damon isn't a fan of Palin. The video is a part of an interview he did with CBS, and although he commits a non-sequitor at the end, it's clear he doesn't want her anywheres near the white house.

Non-video version of said interview.

(CNN) – Admirers say Sarah Palin's compelling narrative and working-mom credentials helped land her a spot on the Republican presidential ticket, but Hollywood star and Obama supporter Matt Damon said Monday the Alaska governor's story more resembles a "really bad Disney movie."

In a blunt interview with the Associated Press, the star of the Jason Bourne film series also said there was a good chance John McCain would die in his first term in office and the thought of a President Palin is "terrifying."

“It’s like a really bad Disney movie — the hockey mom…from Alaska, and she’s the president, and it’s like she’s facing down Vladimir Putin and using the folksy stuff she learned at the hockey rink. And it’s absurd, it’s totally absurd, and I don't understand why people aren’t talking about how absurd it is," Damon said.

"You do the actuary tables, there's a 1-3 chance if not more, that McCain doesn't survive his first term and it will be President Palin," Damon also said, adding later "I think there's a really good chance Sarah Palin could be president, and I think that's a really scary thing, because I don't know anything about her, and I don't think in eight weeks I am going to know anything about her.”

Palin's selection 11 days ago to the GOP ticket has drawn record crowds to McCain campaign rallies and generated a wave of enthusiasm among the base of the party. Damon told the AP he viewed the pick as a purely political one.

"I know that she was a mayor of a really, really small town, and she's been governor of Alaska for less than two years — I think the pick was made for political purposes but in terms of governance it’s a disaster," he said.

Damon and longtime friend Ben Affleck endorsed Obama last year and have been vocal in their support of the Illinois senator. The two also attended a $1,000 per-person fundraiser for Obama in Miami last month.

[Max]

Is anyone watching her interview on ABC with Charlie right now?

Ouch. She's not doing well at all. I can't imagine anyone on the fence with Obama and Mccain, who is watching this, vote for a ticket with this woman on it.

Talk about more of the same, goddamn.