What Are The Worst ST/SW Cop-Outs?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-11 06:38pm

We all know Trek is famous for its cop-outs. They got a million of em, and they aren't afraid to use them. But even the best of Wars has its own cop-outs, unfortunatly. For you see, it is impossible to escape them, they are necesary in sci-fi, simply because they allow you to create drama (by say, killing a character) and then take away, oh so quickly (by cop-outting back into exsistance). So what are the worst Trek/Wars cop-outs of all time?

TREK: We know the #1 Trek cop-out of all time is the Time Travel Cop-Out. The scenario usually follows something to this tune: Trek character dies a heroic death. Eveyone is sad. BING! An idea, we can bring him back! But how you ask? Through a sickening time travel loop! Trek team time travels back and prevents said character from dying, HURRAH! He is now alive and the episode will be forgotten in many seconds after viewing. By far the worstcop-out in all of ST history.

WARS: Whether you like it or lump it, Wars has its fair share of cop-outs as well, some not as sickening, some make sense, but are notorious cop-outs anyways. The #1 Wars cop-out of all time is the Lotsa Clones Cop-Out. In this cop-out it is impossible to kill an Imperial bad guy, because in 10 years he'll be back again. Its happened numerous times. With Isard, Thrawn, and, in a sickening comic series, Emperor Palpatine. Thsi scenario follows soething to this tune: Big bad Imperial guy dies. Celebration! A decade later.....MUAHHAHAHA! Evil Imp is back! Bad guy takes over much NR territory before, through some heroic manner, is killed for good, due to a number of reason-he'll never come back.

These are just the #1 cop-outs for either series. I'm sure there's plenty more out there. My questino to you is: can you find em all?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-08-11 06:43pm

That's impossible, even for a computer.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-11 07:12pm

1. Sun Crusher

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-11 07:24pm

I happened to enjoy Dark Empire....

But the worst cop-out of Wars?

Force-crippling situations. It starts innocently, as a plot device by Zahn.. But soon, the Godlike Jedi are reduced to little more than conjuror's because crappy authors want l33t j3d1 in their novels, but can't construct baddies that can outthink them.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-11 07:38pm

Darth Maul's death.

BTW, I think that the worst ST cop-out was the Dominion surrendering on Cardassia, instead of fighting. I don't even think that the time travel is worse.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-08-11 09:21pm

The worst cop-out for Star Wars? Hmm. I'd say the ending for the Luke sub-plot in BFC.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-11 09:29pm

For Trek, I'd say one of the worst cop-outs is whenever Sisko gets the Wormhole Aliens to save the day. Talk about a deus-ex-Machina.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-08-11 11:03pm

Ewoks...'backdoor entrance' to the power generator...droid army collapse in TPM...DCS hangar explosion in TPM...Midichlorians...

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-11 11:23pm

Are we talking debating cop outs, or writing copouts?

Because if it's debating, my all time favorite has to be the "Q/Wormhole prophets/superbeings will save the federation" ploy. I totally agree with it; the Feds only stand a chance through divine intervention.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-08-12 12:59am

I'll start with the one Star Wars copout which sets my teeth grinding: the Special Edition ANH modified scene in which Greedo gets off a first shot at Han and misses from two feet away before Han shoots him under the table. Of any decision made by George Lucas, that has to be the single STUPIDEST decision of them all. Just because he wants to erase any nuance of doubt regarding Han's heroic character, he willingly takes a step to reduce his first movie to the next childish level. All the others you can think of are trivial by comparison.

The most infamous Trek copout has to be the Trek Reset Button™. The device whereby every plot is wrapped up in five minutes or less; in which drama is destroyed, climaxes are cancelled, and the viewer is left holding a five pound bag of crap. It's like the conclusion of "The Cycling Tour" episode of Monty Python's Flying Circus, where Mr. Pither and his friend find themselves on the wrong end of a very inept Soviet firing squad who charge them with bayonets, then the screen cuts to a tag card reading "scene missing" before cutting to the two of them back in London and Mr. Pither saying "Fhew...What an amazing escape." Only in Trek its not played for laughs. Instead, its how writers who've run out of ideas magick their way out of the holes they've dug for their scripts.

The genesis for this truly hateful scripting device is found in every fan's favourite TNG episode: season 3's "Yesterday's Enterprise". The one difference is that, in that script, the whole plot was constructed specifically to spring that reset into motion as the payoff. It was the object of the plot, to set the world to rights again. The problem is that it soon became the fallback for every lazy-ass Trek writer who found himself unable to map out a plot properly. The most sickening execution of the Trek Reset Button™ was in Deep Space Nine when Sisko is able to whistle up the Prophets™ to disappear an entire Dominion fleet just as the Federation is on the verge of defeat. How very convenient. I think I stopped watching the show not long after that. The final episode of Voyager is just an hour-long version of the TRB. I felt just a little sorry for all those poor fans who were counting on a glorious payoff for their seven years of emotional investment in such a crappy series, but I got over it a moment later.

Other Trek copouts which irritate me:

•Spock's resurrection in Star Trek III: The Search For Spock. Granted, it was properly dramatic, and TSFS was a decent film. It managed to bring Spock back to life in about as plausible a way as was possible for Star Trek. But in my view, it marked the beginning of the end for Star Trek inasmuch as it denied the reality of death, of endings and new beginnings, passage, and new birth. It denied growth and from that point onward, Star Trek increasingly began to turn inward in a desperate effort to maintain its status quo. The only things Star Trek: The Next Generation really brought to the franchise was a different ship design and a new set of characters but before too long, TNG settled into a set pattern in its storytelling. It avoided controversy and different ideas. It forgot how to take risks. It became comfortable, and from that point onward never strove to rise above its comfort zone. That sums up the entire state of the Franchise before it began its continuing and terminal descent into the pits of mediocrity from which it will not be returning. Not ever.

•William T. Riker. At the beginning, a seemingly up-and-rising young officer destined for command, Riker became a joke after season three when it became clear that his ambition was to remain chief cook and bottle washer on the Love Boat. He even meekly hands back the Enterprise to Picard, where any other officer would have said "It's MY SHIP! MY SHIP! MINE!"

•Families/children on the Enterprise: Words don't exist to describe how utterly stupid this whole notion is, to stick defenceless and largely useless civilians as passengers on a warship, which are then subsequently put in harm's way on a regular basis. The idea may have been to restrict the writers from constructing plots where the Enterprise goes into combat, but then it became obvious that there was no drama along that path. Then they didn't even bother to address the entire issue of useless passengers being sent into any hazard zone along with the ship. This very largely negates the plausibility of Starfleet in TNG-era Trek. In the end, they just didn't care.

•New/exotic tech that is discovered then subsequently lost: an allied copout to the Trek Reset Button™ is the introduction of some new piece of superdupertechnology which is useful for the one episode/movie and is subsequently forgotten about by the next episode/movie.

•Voyager and Boobyprise in toto. Two TV shows which exist only to milk the Star Trek cash cow. Complete wastes of film, videotape, and electromagnetic bandwidth.

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-08-12 01:10am

Every ST battle is a cop out, especcialy the DS9 last battle with the Dominion. Plus the nanotech in Voy.

But the copout most trekkies WANT to see is Q saving the Federation, even though it has never happened.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 01:41am

Incidentally, this utter disrespect for death in ST began in TOS, though then it was not nearly so bad as it was later in the series. TNG brought it back, but Voyager's was one of the worst, when Neelix was resurrected for no reason.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-08-12 01:54am

SW Lucas NOT making Eps 7, 8 & 9!

ST: All of Voyager not being killed in the Final Episode, Hst like the End of City on the Edge of Forecer would have been so much better with the Ellison Ending anyways.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-08-12 02:02am

Master of Ossus wrote:Incidentally, this utter disrespect for death in ST began in TOS, though then it was not nearly so bad as it was later in the series. TNG brought it back, but Voyager's was one of the worst, when Neelix was resurrected for no reason.

True enough. That was the "who almost-dies this week" syndrome, but that was endemic to 60s TV. They never killed main characters on any TV drama of the period; it was always an almost-death or a fake or whatever. But since The Search For Spock was a TOS film, you can say that the Trek denial of death did begin at the source. It's just that TSFS was the movie where they crossed the line.

As for Neelix, well, that's a case where most fans were really praying for his death.

HBMC · Post by **HBMC** » 2002-08-12 11:12am

I'm just waiting for a clueless Trekkie to walk in here and say:

"Biggest SW cop-out? The ICS!!"

Or have we purged all the crazy nutcase Trekkie's from this board?

BYE

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-12 11:19am

Just out of curiosity HOW much whining was there about the ICS?? I would think that the thing was sort of stake in the heart of many trekkie arguments. I would have loved to have seen those initial reactions but since I only recently started visiting these message boards, I sort of came in right after that wave was over.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-12 11:26am

Stravo: Just take a look back at sb posts from the time, even some warsies were calling for it to be ignored because it destroyed the Vs argument (accept for techno cop outs or the TOS Vs Imps).

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-12 11:37am

Thanks Darkling...SLAPS FOREHEAD...Why didn't I think of that! (Told you I was new to this)

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-12 11:48am

Stravo wrote:Just out of curiosity HOW much whining was there about the ICS?? I would think that the thing was sort of stake in the heart of many trekkie arguments. I would have loved to have seen those initial reactions but since I only recently started visiting these message boards, I sort of came in right after that wave was over.

3 day flame war that ended with most people taking a "Lets wait and see AOTC first" position and a few numbskulls like Lorkan and DarkStar continuing.

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2002-08-12 12:02pm

Ender wrote:3 day flame war that ended with most people taking a "Lets wait and see AOTC first" position and a few numbskulls like Lorkan and DarkStar continuing.

What did they do after they saw AOTC and the Acclamators didn't fire their guns?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-08-12 01:42pm

They kept bitching. They are still bitching.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-08-12 04:49pm

I'm just waiting for a clueless Trekkie to walk in here and say:

"Biggest SW cop-out? The ICS!!"

Or have we purged all the crazy nutcase Trekkie's from this board

well, there seems to be a new trekkie who appears and spouts the same argument every few weeks.

I still didn't yet understand just how large the effect of the ICS is.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2002-08-12 08:54pm

What is/was the ICS? If its a thread, can someone give me a link?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-12 08:56pm

Jadeite wrote:What is/was the ICS? If its a thread, can someone give me a link?

It's the Incredible Cross-Sections book for Episode II. Go to a bookstore, there's bound to be a copy around. Flip it open to the center, and the Acclamator.

Look at it's stats.

Look at it's guns.

Okay, now you know why there was a fuss.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2002-08-12 11:13pm

Biggest SW cop-out? EU writers who can't come up with a decent plot using what GL gave them, so they dream up the Super Weapon of the Week or the 6.02*10^24 zillion skillion gazillion petaton turbolazer that can BDZ 18 solar systems in under 6 minutes. I love Star Wars, and I'm happy to see Wars kick the shit out of Trek, but Galaxy Guns and 200GT turbolasers erode suspension of disbelief and make the whole thing less enjoyable. Frankly, if Lucas stood up tomorrow and declared the entire EU--suncrushers, Yuzhon Vongs, Thrawns, ICS's and all--null and void, even if it meant that Trek could beat Wars (which it couldn't), I'd be happy.

ST? I'd list them all, but I have to work in the morning and I need to go to bed at a reasonable hour.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

What Are The Worst ST/SW Cop-Outs?

What Are The Worst ST/SW Cop-Outs?

My own catalogue

Who almost-dies this week...

Hmm...