Scientology to go on trial in France for "organised fra

[ray245]

And Christianity began as part of the Roman Emperor Constantine's plan to unify the known world under one oppressive regime. That's somehow morally superior to you?

Wait what? Constantine invented Christanity? That's a new one for me.

He made it into the Christian church we know today, which has almost nothing to do with anything that Jesus guy said.

Given that he himself is never a christian in his lifetime...I'm not surprised.

He is basically amplifying parts of christianity to suit his personal need as an emperor.

[Erik von Nein]

Scientology is a religion, just like any other religion. It's all well and good to say you oppose it, but unless you oppose Christianity with the same vehemence, you're full of shit.

I don't see how it's wrong to oppose an organization for the practices it currently has. More than half of the items for which you said Scientology = Christianity involved the phrases "in the past" or "used to." If one's problem with a religion is specific objectionable practices, and a religious organization stops those practices...

Sure, go after the bigger offenders first, but if you're attacking Scientology for "not being a real religion" then you are full of shit for not going after all the others.

[Rye]

Scientology is a religion, just like any other religion. It's all well and good to say you oppose it, but unless you oppose Christianity with the same vehemence, you're full of shit.

I think that's fair so long as you're not being an apologist for the actions of churches in the past, or the continuing holocaust-level evil perpetuated with the hatred for birth control, for instance. It could be said that anything Scientology does, the JWs and RCC have done better, and that's probably true. Moral (which will no doubt be transcribed to "liberal" by the end of this sentence) christians would have a problem with condemning a christian church that acted like scientology. Those ex-gay boot camps, for instance.

Personally, I would rather Scientology be kept at bay as it's a pretty nasty specific organisation, definitely worse than the modern church of england, for instance. I would be happy to see a clamping down on JW churches too. This is a potential means of reducing some suffering by responding to a religious threat and I can't be against that. Even if the "old boys" were left comparatively unmolested, a bit of good has been done. Maybe it can be a foot in the door when it comes to addressing the continued fraud and evil perpetrated by the old boys if it is successful.

[Darth Wong]

I love the way Christian apologists think the Christian church should only be held responsible for its limited actions in relatively secular America, Canada, or Britain. What about the shit they pull in South America? Or Africa? I guess that doesn't count, right?

[Kanastrous]

So far as liberation theology goes, and considering the entrenched powers in a lot of South American and African countries, I think the Church actually comes out looking like the better outfit, much of the time.

With the obvious exception of their ongoing condoms-cause-HIV-etc nonsense.

[SirNitram]

I'm just curious. Why do we assume no modern brainwashing?(Go read 'Jesus Made Me Puke', the Rolling Stone story someone posted to this board. Pure brainwashing.) Hell, why slavery? No one ever hear of surrendered wives?

[General Zod]

So far as liberation theology goes, and considering the entrenched powers in a lot of South American and African countries, I think the Church actually comes out looking like the better outfit, much of the time.

With the obvious exception of their ongoing condoms-cause-HIV-etc nonsense.

They only come out looking better because people are brainwashed from birth trust Christian authority, and as a result don't find it nearly as repulsive. Unless by "the Church" you mean Scientology, your post isn't terribly clear on this point.

[Darth Wong]

So far as liberation theology goes, and considering the entrenched powers in a lot of South American and African countries, I think the Church actually comes out looking like the better outfit, much of the time.

With the obvious exception of their ongoing condoms-cause-HIV-etc nonsense.

Yeah, if you just leave aside their theocratic behaviour and complicity in millions of deaths, they look just great!

[Pablo Sanchez]

I would argue that their motivation for doing so has something to do with Scientology's fraud and status as a cult, but more to do with it's well-documented history of secret subversive activities like Project Normandy or Operation Snow White. The French and Germans know that the CoS has tried to infiltrate and subvert departments of the US government, so France will scarcely ignore an opportunity to seriously damage them.

[Kanastrous]

So far as liberation theology goes, and considering the entrenched powers in a lot of South American and African countries, I think the Church actually comes out looking like the better outfit, much of the time.

With the obvious exception of their ongoing condoms-cause-HIV-etc nonsense.

They only come out looking better because people are brainwashed from birth trust Christian authority, and as a result don't find it nearly as repulsive. Unless by "the Church" you mean Scientology, your post isn't terribly clear on this point.

I meant the Roman Catholic Church.

Although now I'm thinking that I may be giving the organization too much credit for the heroism of some of its individual clerics.

[Kanastrous]

So far as liberation theology goes, and considering the entrenched powers in a lot of South American and African countries, I think the Church actually comes out looking like the better outfit, much of the time.

With the obvious exception of their ongoing condoms-cause-HIV-etc nonsense.

Yeah, if you just leave aside their theocratic behaviour and complicity in millions of deaths, they look just great!

Think of it as ethical renormalization.

[Darth Wong]

One of Judeo-Christo-Islam's greatest crimes against humanity right now has to be its promotion of the "multiply at all costs" doctrine, which is literally destroying our environment. At least that's one thing Scientology is not guilty of.

[Lord of the Abyss]

So far as liberation theology goes, and considering the entrenched powers in a lot of South American and African countries, I think the Church actually comes out looking like the better outfit, much of the time.

Well, except that the church has systematically cracked down on liberation theology, and the present Pope spent much of his career going after it, and personally formulated much of the doctrine condemning it.

[Kanastrous]

So far as liberation theology goes, and considering the entrenched powers in a lot of South American and African countries, I think the Church actually comes out looking like the better outfit, much of the time.

Well, except that the church has systematically cracked down on liberation theology, and the present Pope spent much of his career going after it, and personally formulated much of the doctrine condemning it.

Yes, I realize that I was confusing the laudable actions of a few churchmen, with the direction of the church itself.

[Big Orange]

One of Judeo-Christo-Islam's greatest crimes against humanity right now has to be its promotion of the "multiply at all costs" doctrine, which is literally destroying our environment. At least that's one thing Scientology is not guilty of.

It is ironic that in the homeland of the Roman Catholic Church, Italy, the birth rate is very low and the current population is aging. Sure that is a potential demographic problem (especially if the birth rate is below replacement levels), but in my opinion a developed country with a low but sustainable birth rate is normal and even necessary, to prevent most enviromental problems and infrastructure strain (the UK government foolishly seeks to get the population up to a 100 million; that would eventually make a bigger elderly population and destroy the Green Belt).

I agree with the hypocrisy of Abrahamic faiths getting a free pass, but unfortunately with them being far older institutions in comparison to Scientology that gave them a chance to be much more ingrained in our societies for millennia, making billions of people take their lunacy so much for granted.

[Themightytom]

One of Judeo-Christo-Islam's greatest crimes against humanity right now has to be its promotion of the "multiply at all costs" doctrine, which is literally destroying our environment. At least that's one thing Scientology is not guilty of.

That is such a broad categorization that it is true, despite the fact that many of the subdenominations of the population you have lumped together promote pretty conservative values such as monogamous relationships, and abstinence until marriage as well as placing some pretty stringent requirements on proper manner timing and perception of sex.

[Kanastrous]

Sure, but the ultimate aim is to channel sexuality into marriage and procreate as constantly and prolifically, as possible.

[Themightytom]

Sure, but the ultimate aim is to channel sexuality into marriage and procreate as constantly and prolifically, as possible.

Even if years of conditioning to cotnrol your "base" instincts has the opposite effect? has anyone seen a Shaker lately? They completely rechannelled sexual energy into other areas.


Mike's statement wasn't innacurate in probably the majority of cases but he lumped a GIANT group together some of which promote the opposite of his statement but lose out due to averages.

[General Zod]

Even if years of conditioning to cotnrol your "base" instincts has the opposite effect? has anyone seen a Shaker lately? They completely rechannelled sexual energy into other areas.


Mike's statement wasn't innacurate in probably the majority of cases but he lumped a GIANT group together some of which promote the opposite of his statement but lose out due to averages.

"Abstinence until marriage" is only really just the window dressing anyway, in reality it very rarely actually works regardless of what the group supposedly promotes. Personally I'm also skeptical of anyone that says they can "channel" sexual energy elsewhere, it smells like woo-woo newage bullfuckery.

[Darth Wong]

One of Judeo-Christo-Islam's greatest crimes against humanity right now has to be its promotion of the "multiply at all costs" doctrine, which is literally destroying our environment. At least that's one thing Scientology is not guilty of.

That is such a broad categorization that it is true, despite the fact that many of the subdenominations of the population you have lumped together promote pretty conservative values such as monogamous relationships, and abstinence until marriage as well as placing some pretty stringent requirements on proper manner timing and perception of sex.

What does that have to do with the "multiply at all costs" doctrine? All of the most prolific breeders I've ever known have been highly conservative, yet you're acting as if "conservative values" somehow contradict the "multiply at all costs" credo. The whole point of those "conservative values" is to promote procreation as the ultimate goal of sex, and to attack any kind of sex which is not directed toward that goal.

[Themightytom]

"Abstinence until marriage" is only really just the window dressing anyway, in reality it very rarely actually works regardless of what the group supposedly promotes. Personally I'm also skeptical of anyone that says they can "channel" sexual energy elsewhere, it smells like woo-woo newage bullfuckery.

Well its not magic you dumbass its a desire centered in your amygdala reinforced by a hormone release. Your neocortex can structure your instincts so you don't act on them immediately without regard to consequence. or do you drop your pants eery time you're aroused. This is an extension of waiting until your clothes are of, or your partner is ready.

[General Zod]

Well its not magic you dumbass its a desire centered in your amygdala reinforced by a hormone release. Your neocortex can structure your instincts so you don't act on them immediately without regard to consequence. or do you drop your pants eery time you're aroused. This is an extension of waiting until your clothes are of, or your partner is ready.

We have a perfectly good term for this already. It's called "self-control" and doesn't depend on using terminology that make it sound like new-age bullshit that only people with special training are capable of. So please, take your false sense of outrage and kindly shove it up your ass.

[Kanastrous]

Sure, but the ultimate aim is to channel sexuality into marriage and procreate as constantly and prolifically, as possible.

Even if years of conditioning to cotnrol your "base" instincts has the opposite effect? has anyone seen a Shaker lately? They completely rechannelled sexual energy into other areas.

Reminds me of a comment someone made once about Shakers...

The Shakers came to America in order to lead lives devoted to chastity and carpentry. Today there are plenty of uncomfortable straight-backed hardwood chairs, and very few Shakers.

Anyway, I wasn't describing tiny out-of-the-mainstream groups like the Shakers. I was thinking of the overwhelming majority of Christians in the RCC and assorted Protestant denominations (orthodox Jewish and Muslim denominations, too) that *do* encourage prolific breeding on the part of their membership.

[Themightytom]

What does that have to do with the "multiply at all costs" doctrine? All of the most prolific breeders I've ever known have been highly conservative, yet you're acting as if "conservative values" somehow contradict the "multiply at all costs" credo. The whole point of those "conservative values" is to promote procreation as the ultimate goal of sex, and to attack any kind of sex which is not directed toward that goal.

Well it certainly emphasizes that sex is for procreation, not recreation, but the difference lies in whether a person WANTS children. If they want children, sure they will have enough for a basketball team, but if they don't and their values do not permit sex for recreation, they just wouldn't have sex.

I don't think there is a "multiply at all costs" doctrine, since we both have decribed conservative values as imposing very specific controls on what is "apropriate" sex. The doctrine is more regarding the purpose o sex rather than the frequency an urgency of it, its just that when cultural inhibitions meet reproductive instinct, the end result is sometimes an unintended consequence

[Themightytom]

We have a perfectly good term for this already. It's called "self-control" and doesn't depend on using terminology that make it sound like new-age bullshit that only people with special training are capable of. So please, take your false sense of outrage and kindly shove it up your ass.

Easy Zod, I wasn't outraged, I was just amused. your comment reminded me of the whole "Tanric redrection" scene in American Pie 2 where Finch redirects his "Sexual energy" into a rediculous orgasm. I think we have the same opinion of new age bullshit, as somethign taht somebody dragged out of ancient practices and than franchised into a profit making scheme to prey on idiots.

Like Scientology.