Rape Kit Costs and the GOP Ticket.

[Darth Wong]

Hey "Conservatives blame the woman for being raped" douchebags; this being N&P, why don't you show some evidence for this assertion? Without trying to defend Chewbacca's mindless conservatism, if you can't back up your own mindless bullshit, take your unproven assertions and shove them up your collective asses.

Obviously, not all conservatives think that. However, blaming the victim for rape is a very old religious tradition. It's well-known that Muslim conservatives openly hold this attitude, as do an awful lot of closeted misogynist Christians, which is why a woman's promiscuity is so often raised as evidence in a rape trial. It was not until the much-vilified "sexual revolution" of the 1960s and 1970s that rape shield laws were finally put into effect, and many of them still have gaping holes.

In effect, whether you like it or not, it is indeed a relatively recent attitude (springing up during the sexual revolution) to think that it's a terrible idea to blame the woman for rape. Now you could argue that this is not correlated with social conservatism in any way, but you would quite frankly be grasping at straws.

PS. Amnesty International reported on a survey done in the UK where more than a quarter of respondents agreed that women who wear revealing clothing are partially to blame for being raped. A fifth felt they were partially responsible if they had more than one sexual partner in their past, and 8% felt that promiscuous women were totally responsible for rape. And I doubt UK social conservatives are that much different from American social conservatives. If anything, the problem is probably worse in America, given that Americans are more puritanical in general than Britons.

[SirNitram]

The Majority of the GOP senators did not vote for the bill I mentioned Biden updating, which removed the financial responsibility from the patient. But I suspect that wouldn't count, somehow.

[Metatwaddle]

This is made even more disgusting when you take into account the fact that the rape rate in Alaska is the highest in the nation....and no other state even comes close to them. This is also true of incest and other violent crimes against women (esp pregnant women) and children in the state of Alaska:


some info here

There are probably multiple factors at work here, though. Indian reservations tend to have high crime rates, and Alaska has a large number of Eskimo and Inuit people. It's possible that if general quality of life (economic opportunity, quality of education, etc.) improved there, you'd see large drops in rape and other violent crime rates.

[PeZook]

You know, laws like that go far further than promoting a "blame the victim" mentality. They contribute to the climate of "separation of society and the individual", where individuals do not feel like parts of the overall society, and consider their government an opponent at best.

Think about this: the law doesn't exactly say "The State must charge for rape kits", it just says "We won't give you money to pay for rape kits, so you have to find them elsewhere". However, the implied message is "If a citizen is raped, we're not gonna help her find the rapist unless she pays for the service herself".

This promotes the attitude that if you get in trouble, you shouldn't expect other people to come and help you: thus, you should own a gun, an attack dog, hire a bodyguard, etc. - and if you can't, well, you're a fool or deserve it, because society can't help you!

In socialist countries (and maybe in America, I don't know...) right after WWII, the opposite happened: I think Stas observed once that in the old USSR, if a man tried beating up a woman on the street in front of an audience, he'd get himself in trouble real fast. Early socialist countries had a tendency to promote a "we work together!" kind of mindset from a very young age - it may have been a leftover from WWII. American war propaganda was big on teamwork and communal responsibility as well, after all.

This is an example of an ideology poisoning people's minds: entire generations are raised believing they should always outcompete and outperform others, and to the victor go the spoils!

In some places, such a message doesn't matter. But in case of rape, it's a classic place where people have a right to expect as much help as they can get from others: if they can't get it, they feel bitter, alone, humilitated...

It's not just immortal: promoting this kind of attitude is just plain dangerous, even from a purely Machiavellian standpoint.

[The Spartan]

You REALLY think that a significant fraction of American conservatives believe a woman being raped is her own fault?

...wow

The very fact that these policies exist and that they are more likely to exist in strongly conservative areas suggests that, in fact, they do.

Then there's also the polls that Darth Wong cited.

Are there bigoted, mysogynist, racist republicans? Yes. Does the 'she had it coming' crowd make up a majority, or even a plurality of evangelical christians? I don't think so.

I didn't say majority, I said large number. A number that is not insignificant based upon the fact that these policies are in place in the first place, as I noted above.

[Turin]

I mentioned this to my girlfriend last night and she sent me hunting for evidence of a terrible little tidbit. What makes this whole thing worse is that hundreds of thousands of rape kits aren't even processed here in the US. Which means that policies like this make it even less likely that a woman who's raped will see any justice -- undercut funding to get the kit in the first place, and then don't bother to process it anyway. Disgusting.

[Big Phil]

Hey "Conservatives blame the woman for being raped" douchebags; this being N&P, why don't you show some evidence for this assertion? Without trying to defend Chewbacca's mindless conservatism, if you can't back up your own mindless bullshit, take your unproven assertions and shove them up your collective asses.

Obviously, not all conservatives think that. However, blaming the victim for rape is a very old religious tradition. It's well-known that Muslim conservatives openly hold this attitude, as do an awful lot of closeted misogynist Christians, which is why a woman's promiscuity is so often raised as evidence in a rape trial. It was not until the much-vilified "sexual revolution" of the 1960s and 1970s that rape shield laws were finally put into effect, and many of them still have gaping holes.

In effect, whether you like it or not, it is indeed a relatively recent attitude (springing up during the sexual revolution) to think that it's a terrible idea to blame the woman for rape. Now you could argue that this is not correlated with social conservatism in any way, but you would quite frankly be grasping at straws.

I'm not arguing that the attitude isn't pervasive, but on this board we are required to present evidence to support our assertion. The Spartan threw it out there with nothing to support his assertion, then Darksider jumped on the no evidence bandwagon, followed by Dark Hellion, more Darksider no evidence assertions, General Zod, and Darksider again.

After I asked these three to provide evidence to support their assertions, General Zod linked to a blog (which, interestingly, refers to the Duke "rape" case that fell apart) and to a 22 year old study. The blog provides links to a few sites (only one of which has statistics), and RAINN's statistics don't touch on attitudes toward rape. In other words, he provided an anecdote (boy, that's worth a whole lot) and an outdated report that doesn't say a damned thing about conservatives blaming the victim.

That's not even including Darksider's jab at Chewbacca liking McCain's moral values, referencing another thread (which is not allowed under DR2). CaptainChewbacca's idiotic reasons for supporting McCain weren't a part of this thread until that point.

Bear in mind, I'm simply asking for evidence of an assertion, something which is supposed to be central to the tenets of this board. If conservatives really blame the victim more so than moderates or liberals, it should be fairly easy to find evidence of this assertion. Referring to how things were in 1975 (before most rape shield laws were passed) says something about America's attitude toward rape at that time, but doesn't say much about its attitude toward rape today, or how conservatives feel about it. The attitude that blaming a woman for rape is wrong is relatively recent, but that doesn't mean that religious conservatives disagree today just because they disagreed thirty years ago.

[General Zod]

Bear in mind, I'm simply asking for evidence of an assertion, something which is supposed to be central to the tenets of this board. If conservatives really blame the victim more so than moderates or liberals, it should be fairly easy to find evidence of this assertion.

Way to conveniently move the goalposts. You asked for proof that conservatives blame the victim, not "more than moderates or liberals". If you don't like what I provided, then how about you actually show where it's wrong instead of simply dismissing it because it's not recent?

Referring to how things were in 1975 (before most rape shield laws were passed) says something about America's attitude toward rape at that time, but doesn't say much about its attitude toward rape today, or how conservatives feel about it. The attitude that blaming a woman for rape is wrong is relatively recent, but that doesn't mean that religious conservatives disagree today just because they disagreed thirty years ago.

Get back to me when you have evidence that conservative attitudes have actually changed significantly since then.

[Kanastrous]

Since religious conservatives by nature take pride in the un-changing-ness of their beliefs and doctrines, it's entirely reasonable to posit that their mores have not changed substantially, since 1975.

Hell, these are people who for the most part take pride in adhering to social norms preserved for over five millenia - what possible reason is there to assume that their positions have changed significantly, over the last thirty-three years?

[Big Phil]

Bear in mind, I'm simply asking for evidence of an assertion, something which is supposed to be central to the tenets of this board. If conservatives really blame the victim more so than moderates or liberals, it should be fairly easy to find evidence of this assertion.

Way to conveniently move the goalposts. You asked for proof that conservatives blame the victim, not "more than moderates or liberals". If you don't like what I provided, then how about you actually show where it's wrong instead of simply dismissing it because it's not recent?

Are you being difficult on purpose? If conservatives, moderates, and liberals all blame women for being raped in equal numbers, why single out conservatives? The obvious conclusion is that you're arguing conservatives blame women in larger numbers than liberals. Darksider even made that specific argument.

And fuck you and the horse you rode in on - it's your job to support the claim fuckface, not mine to disprove it. Put up or shut up.

Referring to how things were in 1975 (before most rape shield laws were passed) says something about America's attitude toward rape at that time, but doesn't say much about its attitude toward rape today, or how conservatives feel about it. The attitude that blaming a woman for rape is wrong is relatively recent, but that doesn't mean that religious conservatives disagree today just because they disagreed thirty years ago.

Get back to me when you have evidence that conservative attitudes have actually changed significantly since then.

Burden of proof, fucker. You made the claim, you prove it. If you can't then concede.

[Big Phil]

Since religious conservatives by nature take pride in the un-changing-ness of their beliefs and doctrines, it's entirely reasonable to posit that their mores have not changed substantially, since 1975.

Hell, these are people who for the most part take pride in adhering to social norms preserved for over five millenia - what possible reason is there to assume that their positions have changed significantly, over the last thirty-three years?

I'll give you one example where religious conservatives have changed their attitudes. Environmentalism.

Ten years ago religious conservatives were distinctly non-environmentally friendly. They had no problem supporting politicians that were pro-pollution and viewed recycling or conservation as dirty words. Today, conservatives are becoming much more environmentally friendly and conscious.

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/s ... king-root/
http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007924.php

Greening Conservative America by John Bliese
The Sacred Earth: Religious Nature Movement by Roger Gottlieb

[Mr Bean]

Point, Claims have been made in this thread by various people singling out Conservatives as being supportive of blame the victim. Evidence must be provided otherwise Sanchez is correct it is a baseless claim.

To date none of you have bothered to provide such evidence, if you wish to advance your argument, you must do so or concede at this point

Thank you
(OAN:I'd do it myself but I'm on the way out the door to work, if none of you have bothered to quote one of the dozens of studies I've seen posted on just this issue, I'll do it my damn self)

[Kanastrous]

I'm not sure that means much, since after all mankind's stewardship of the Earth is explicitly mentioned, in scripture. If anything, conservatives are simply correcting a falling-away from that stewardship, rather than actually changing any kind of doctrine.

[Big Phil]

I'm not sure that means much, since after all mankind's stewardship of the Earth is explicitly mentioned, in scripture. If anything, conservatives are simply correcting a falling-away from that stewardship, rather than actually changing any kind of doctrine.

Until recently, it was interpreted as dominion (i.e., we can do whatever the fuck we want), rather than stewardship. Whether it's a correction from a fucked up interpretation or a doctrinal change, it is a significant change in attitude.

[Kanastrous]

I'm not sure that means much, since after all mankind's stewardship of the Earth is explicitly mentioned, in scripture. If anything, conservatives are simply correcting a falling-away from that stewardship, rather than actually changing any kind of doctrine.

Until recently, it was interpreted as dominion (i.e., we can do whatever the fuck we want), rather than stewardship. Whether it's a correction from a fucked up interpretation or a doctrinal change, it is a significant change in attitude.

True.

[General Zod]

Are you being difficult on purpose? If conservatives, moderates, and liberals all blame women for being raped in equal numbers, why single out conservatives? The obvious conclusion is that you're arguing conservatives blame women in larger numbers than liberals. Darksider even made that specific argument.

Then you are not, in fact, denying that conservatives do blame the victim as you did in your first post? You keep shifting the goalposts so much I can't tell what the fuck you're trying to argue. But hey, while we're at it here's another link. There's literally dozens of published studies on the "Blame the victim" mindset.

Link 1

Findings indicate wide support for stereotypes justifying sexual coercion by time and the location of the date, the victim’s behavior, and the minimization of the seriousness of date rape. A regression analysis indicates that students’ gender and age are the strongest predictors of rape-tolerant and victim-blaming attitudes. Socioeconomic status and religious orientation explained a small proportion of the variance in the support of such attitudes. By contrast, no significant relationship was indicated with ethnicity. The study recommends new guidelines for future sex education and rape prevention programs, stating that these should address date-rape and victim-blaming attitudes and make students of both genders aware of the various factors that continue to be misread as an invitation to have sex, thereby putting them at high risk of experiencing sexual coercion on a date. It further recommends that these programs begin in early adolescence, addressing the various date rape scripts and the relationship between gender-role socialization and victim-blaming and pro-rape attitudes that lead to these unwanted experiences. Data were collected from a multiethnic sample of 900 Israeli high school students. Tables, figure, references

Link 2

Rape victim blame was measured with an eight-item scale of commonly held rape myths. Results showed that females were substantially less likely to blame rape victims. For the female subsample, risk taking and rape victim blame were negatively associated. Among males, past sexual aggression and risk taking were positively related to victim blaming, and male experience with nonsexual victimization was negatively related to victim blaming. Most of the hypotheses were at least partially confirmed. As anticipated, gender was the most powerful predictor of rape victim blaming, with females substantially less likely to accept rape myths. An appendix contains the questionnaire items for the rape myth acceptance index, the risk taking index, and sexual victimization. 16 references and 4 tables

[Darksider]

Point, Claims have been made in this thread by various people singling out Conservatives as being supportive of blame the victim. Evidence must be provided otherwise Sanchez is correct it is a baseless claim.

To date none of you have bothered to provide such evidence, if you wish to advance your argument, you must do so or concede at this point

Thank you
(OAN:I'd do it myself but I'm on the way out the door to work, if none of you have bothered to quote one of the dozens of studies I've seen posted on just this issue, I'll do it my damn self)

All i've got for evidence right now are statements from prominent conservative mouthpieces such as jerry falwell and pat robertson regarding the 9-11 attacks and other events that indicate that they blame the victims of such events for their occurance.
add to that the fact that all the states listed in Darth Wong's link at the top of the page as having a legislated exception to their rape shield laws have sizeable conservative populations.

I know that's not much to form an argument on, so if I can't find something more specific by the end of the day, i'll gladly concede the point to sanchez.

[Darth Wong]

Hey "Conservatives blame the woman for being raped" douchebags; this being N&P, why don't you show some evidence for this assertion? Without trying to defend Chewbacca's mindless conservatism, if you can't back up your own mindless bullshit, take your unproven assertions and shove them up your collective asses.

Obviously, not all conservatives think that. However, blaming the victim for rape is a very old religious tradition. It's well-known that Muslim conservatives openly hold this attitude, as do an awful lot of closeted misogynist Christians, which is why a woman's promiscuity is so often raised as evidence in a rape trial. It was not until the much-vilified "sexual revolution" of the 1960s and 1970s that rape shield laws were finally put into effect, and many of them still have gaping holes.

In effect, whether you like it or not, it is indeed a relatively recent attitude (springing up during the sexual revolution) to think that it's a terrible idea to blame the woman for rape. Now you could argue that this is not correlated with social conservatism in any way, but you would quite frankly be grasping at straws.

I'm not arguing that the attitude isn't pervasive, but on this board we are required to present evidence to support our assertion. The Spartan threw it out there with nothing to support his assertion, then Darksider jumped on the no evidence bandwagon, followed by Dark Hellion, more Darksider no evidence assertions, General Zod, and Darksider again.

After I asked these three to provide evidence to support their assertions, General Zod linked to a blog (which, interestingly, refers to the Duke "rape" case that fell apart) and to a 22 year old study. The blog provides links to a few sites (only one of which has statistics), and RAINN's statistics don't touch on attitudes toward rape. In other words, he provided an anecdote (boy, that's worth a whole lot) and an outdated report that doesn't say a damned thing about conservatives blaming the victim.

That's not even including Darksider's jab at Chewbacca liking McCain's moral values, referencing another thread (which is not allowed under DR2). CaptainChewbacca's idiotic reasons for supporting McCain weren't a part of this thread until that point.

Bear in mind, I'm simply asking for evidence of an assertion, something which is supposed to be central to the tenets of this board. If conservatives really blame the victim more so than moderates or liberals, it should be fairly easy to find evidence of this assertion. Referring to how things were in 1975 (before most rape shield laws were passed) says something about America's attitude toward rape at that time, but doesn't say much about its attitude toward rape today, or how conservatives feel about it. The attitude that blaming a woman for rape is wrong is relatively recent, but that doesn't mean that religious conservatives disagree today just because they disagreed thirty years ago.

Yes it does. Social conservatism holds that the values of the past were superior to the values of the present. Moreover, you are ignoring the connection between promiscuity and assignment of blame in these rape shield cases: who is it that has a problem with sexual promiscuity? I'll give you three guesses: is it moderates, liberals, or conservatives?

[Big Phil]

Yes it does. Social conservatism holds that the values of the past were superior to the values of the present. Moreover, you are ignoring the connection between promiscuity and assignment of blame in these rape shield cases: who is it that has a problem with sexual promiscuity? I'll give you three guesses: is it moderates, liberals, or conservatives?

And yet these same social conservatives hold Bristol Palin up to be some sort of role model for getting herself knocked up. And Zod keeps linking to studies and articles about blaming the victim, but blaming the victim is hardly the sole domain of social conservatives.

I'll just wait until Mr Bean posts the studies he referenced, since no one else seems to be able to do so.

[Vendetta]

And yet these same social conservatives hold Bristol Palin up to be some sort of role model for getting herself knocked up.

Hooray for double standards!

[General Zod]

And yet these same social conservatives hold Bristol Palin up to be some sort of role model for getting herself knocked up. And Zod keeps linking to studies and articles about blaming the victim, but blaming the victim is hardly the sole domain of social conservatives.

Are you retarded or do you enjoy moving the goalposts just to piss people off? Nobody's claimed it was just conservatives responsible you fucking idiot. Just that they do so more than anyone else.

[The Guid]

Bristol Palin is a role model now? Where did you get that? And nice way to dodge the question by the way.

Let me phrase it another way; what kind of mindset do you have to have in order the blame the victim in rape cases? One that suggests that women have an acceptable framework of behaviour? One that suggests that sexual promiscuity is intrinsically immoral and unethical? One that, Biblically or for any other reason, holds that men are superior and should be dominant in relationships?

Come on now, are you really going to write of all of the above as baseless?

[Kanastrous]

And yet these same social conservatives hold Bristol Palin up to be some sort of role model for getting herself knocked up.

Because Palin is their favored candidate. Of course behavior that is loose and promiscuous and immoral and bad for other people becomes heroic and admirable, when its their candidate's daughter, doing it.

[Darth Wong]

Yes it does. Social conservatism holds that the values of the past were superior to the values of the present. Moreover, you are ignoring the connection between promiscuity and assignment of blame in these rape shield cases: who is it that has a problem with sexual promiscuity? I'll give you three guesses: is it moderates, liberals, or conservatives?

And yet these same social conservatives hold Bristol Palin up to be some sort of role model for getting herself knocked up.

You know perfectly well that if they didn't need to support their side's VP candidate, they would vilify her. Now you're just being dishonest. If it was just some anonymous teenaged girl who got knocked up out of wedlock, they would say she was an example of what's wrong with America, and you know it.

And Zod keeps linking to studies and articles about blaming the victim, but blaming the victim is hardly the sole domain of social conservatives.

Ah, so we've gone from "you can't prove that they tend to do it" to "it's not their sole domain?" Nice goalpost-moving.

[Big Phil]

And yet these same social conservatives hold Bristol Palin up to be some sort of role model for getting herself knocked up. And Zod keeps linking to studies and articles about blaming the victim, but blaming the victim is hardly the sole domain of social conservatives.

Are you retarded or do you enjoy moving the goalposts just to piss people off? Nobody's claimed it was just conservatives responsible you fucking idiot. Just that they do so more than anyone else.

You're a douchebag and a moron. Keep your stories straight, would you, while you're busy screeching about moving goalposts...

You asked for proof that conservatives blame the victim, not "more than moderates or liberals". If you don't like what I provided, then how about you actually show where it's wrong instead of simply dismissing it because it's not recent?

Come on now, are you really going to write of all of the above as baseless?

Hardly - I simply asked for evidence. So far Zod has screeched about moving goalposts while simultaneously contradicting himself, and no one has provided a study (or even better, multiple studies, articles, etc.) stating that social conservatives blame the victim more than social liberals.

For fucks sake, it shouldn't be that damned hard to provide the evidence if the attitude is so commonplace. What the fuck is wrong with you people?