Did I not already say it? Anyway just forget about it for right now, I don’t feel like dealing with it.
Actually, I asked that question before you edited the post and added the additional information.
As for the sub, no prob, I'll go back and change that post.
As for the "shenanigans" being alluded to, I can only suppose that would mean super power-blocs. But super power-blocs exist, NATO and the WP being prime examples, and in the case of an ethnic identity bloc such as the Slavic alliance it makes sense.
Also, despite politics, this is "us" in the game, and certain alliances and relationships will be easier because we "know" one another somewhat more personally than what our counterparts would in this word's version of real life.
And, to be honest, I think that the automatic Shepistan-Japanistan assumption of power bloc falls under the same general rubric-- it does not necessarily make sense. Consider World War 2 in real life-- the alliance of Germany and Japan was just a matter of convenience, there certainly were no real ties between them.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Coyote wrote:Right now, the MESS knows, and apparantly the IRT has somehow managed to get spies of some sort into the area, because phongn managed to be all over that like Genghis Khan on a Swedish princess. But he won't have any samples.
I've had people on the ground in Veleria for some time now sniffing things out and otherwise making trade connections in the NE part ... but of course we're paying attention everywhere else. Industrial espionage knows no borders
Theoretically, phongn's researchers should follow the hemmoraghic fever route, although they may be puzzled by any descriptions given that don't exactly corroborate the story except superficially.
Exceedingly puzzled. Efforts will be made to get a sample by hook or crook.
Coyote wrote:As for the "shenanigans" being alluded to, I can only suppose that would mean super power-blocs. But super power-blocs exist, NATO and the WP being prime examples, and in the case of an ethnic identity bloc such as the Slavic alliance it makes sense.
Yes, but in a meta-gaming sense it also breaks things if we have the equivalent of NATO and the WARPAC essentially joining together. STGODs have always thrived when there is a reasonable balance of power to permit enough conflict and intrigue between various powers. Super-alliances tend to break the game because it becomes boring.
Also, despite politics, this is "us" in the game, and certain alliances and relationships will be easier because we "know" one another somewhat more personally than what our counterparts would in this word's version of real life.
To an extent, but the demands of realpoltik have their own requirements, and I don't think that's being played well enough here, to be blunt.
And, to be honest, I think that the automatic Shepistan-Japanistan assumption of power bloc falls under the same general rubric-- it does not necessarily make sense. Consider World War 2 in real life-- the alliance of Germany and Japan was just a matter of convenience, there certainly were no real ties between them.
Both nations are virtual international pariahs once again; it makes some sense there (as does Shep shipping out dissidents to Norseman's country, for that matter).
The problem is, why wouldn't groups such as the MESS and SNC unite? Let's be honest, we tried to play balance of power last time and got played for fools; now the same players align this time and we see... yup, Shep starts off right from the get-go playing not only brinksmanship games, but brinksmanship games that make very little sense in the context provided. Setting drift mines? The open mining of Velerian harbors and airports?
Even if the drift mines are written off (since proof is scanty), the Velerian mining is an open and unmistakable act of war. But we're supposed to just pretend like we see all these provocations as separate incidents and pretend we don't remember the past, when remembering the past is exactly part of the scenario?
It's like we're obligated to be stupid and bumbling, and just dope along being taken advantage of until it is too late to do anything about it. There's been a score of provocative acts by "the usual suspects" and when we don't allow ourselves to get played as suckers this time around, it's "unfair".
Skimmer complained last time that the whole reason he played for spite was because he wasn't engaged as a peer among others. I opened up the game making diplomatic overtures so we could re-align the stars, and my attempts were ignored. I even provided political cover for an overt land grab. My thanks was, when I landed hundreds of miles away on an unrelated mission, the next thing I know Japanistan paratroopers are falling almost literally on my guys' heads and the next thing I know I'm being told that several thousand square miles of land was rolled up in that initial claim.
But I don't complain, I go with the flow and make it a joint effort, putting up with minor slights and one-upmanship to be a good sport... admittedly, the Veleria situation is, indeed, dynamic and interesting, and I enjoy that plotline.
I feel I am trying to alter the dynamic and make things interesting, but believe me, MESS is not the only organization here that automatically fell into a habitual alliance.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
One, neither Skimmer nor Shep, nor me, Beowulf or anyone else in the game AT ALL could not have afforder "the entire Soviet military", since I computed it via the points system - we have X points, and no more. It just doesn't come out this way. Either the Navy, Airforce, or Army, or all three would be lacking.
Since the Imperium level is top notch for nations, there's no "super-Imperium" to speak of. No US or Soviet-size militaries. Hell, the personnel cap with just conscripts would probably run around 1-1,5 million men - and that woudl be with severe lack of MBTs, IFVs, Navy ships and airplanes.
Yes, the economy we have (5 trillion) is more powerful than our militaries, and we are all technically under-militarized in relation to what's possible.
Of course, if someone decides to screw the points system, sure - but who would do that, didn't we all agree to abide by the rules?
Point two: I feel Skimmer is still right on alliances. There can't be much of a dynamic political world situation if all major nations are on the same side, and are ready to go to war with any nation at the mere prospect of one nation being attacked.
Neither WWI nor WWII nor the Cold War had such unilateralism. Not even now - with EU, Russia, US/Britain and others acting mainly in their own interests and the global dominance scheme falling apart (take for instance the NATO tensions when Germany and France did not attack Iraq).
We have to set some sort of solution. I wanted to make a socialist bloc at first (SB) but I ditched that in favour of a national/cultural one (the SNC) as not to create multiple contradictory alliances.
P.S. I think it's high time we define alliances as one or other. I defer to the Moderator on a solution.
Last edited by K. A. Pital on 2008-09-13 01:00am, edited 1 time in total.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
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Norseman wrote:We're all upset about something, I'm upset that I got stuck with an enormous liability that I can't in any way, shape or form afford. I am of course talking about South Valeria. I gain absolutely nothing from that colony. If I had any sense I should have insisted that it received independence or internal government a couple of years ago.
Next time I get an island I'll make sure there are no other commitments anywhere on the globe.
I would have thought it gained you a great deal of raw materials hacked out of the ground by slaves, thus making slavery slightly more economical in a modern economy. I mean you want to talk liability… slaves are just ugh.
What would I want with raw materials? Even without South Velaria there is probably a huge glut of agricultural goods and other natural resources. The Astarian economy is as close to an autarky as you can come.
Incidentally I'll need Marina's judgement on what kind of resources can be found in South Velaria. So far I've been assuming that it's mainly agriculture, lumber, some iron, and some minor offshore operations on the border with Bissauru. A moderators ruling would be nice.
Sea Skimmer wrote:Having to defend a colony is hardly a great liability anyway when you face no other ground threat at all. Your main island could be defended totally by militia for an army, and heck your nation is small enough to even build an Atlantic Wall along the entire coastline plus bunkers covering airborne landing zone. Just make the slaves built it all over 40 years.
I do face the threat of bomber swarms, and heavy naval blockades. However defending South Velaria is a huge liability since I'm suddenly bordering a Great Power. Moreover just having it forces me to maintain a proper navy, albeit a small one.
Stas Bush wrote:Of course, if someone decides to screw the points system, sure - but who would do that, didn't we all agree to abide by the rules?
In fact, Sea Skimmer is not using the point system but rather costing his military more realistically; the point system was never significantly binding but rather an example for people who didn't want to go through all the work.
Point two: I feel Skimmer is still right on alliances. There can't be much of a dynamic political world situation if all major nations are on the same side, and are ready to go to war with any nation at the mere prospect of one nation being attacked.
That pretty much stops the game from having much occur, even with the intrigue in Velaria.
P.S. I think it's high time we define alliances as one or other. I defer to the Moderator on a solution.
Additional history to ensure that major power blocks remain disparate and minimally-cooperating would also help, there.
With Cascadia my intent was always to be a neutral, though not isolationist, Republic. By necessity my relations with MESS remain as cordial as possible (I am on a continent with three MESS Imperiums, and a MESS Kingdom sits on the sealanes to my interests in Veleria), though relations are not equal among MESS states.
The Shinra Republic is a long-time friend of Cascadia, by mutual agreement between myself and Rogue, and we also enjoy warm relations with the Kingdom of Serenity. I'm not sure of relations with Wilkonia beyond "warm", but Tian Xia/Cascadian relations are never quite smooth and have some potentials for periods of rockiness, especially given the situation over Jieshi (the ethnic group's homeland is split, the western half a province of Cascadia, the eastern a prefecture of Tian Xia), fishing rights in the northeastern corner of the Pacific (with Alaska around to complicate things), and probably other little things.
I figure Cascadian-Canissian relations also tend to be well enough, while Cascadia and Old Dominion might not be quite so friendly (Old Dominion, IIRC my conversations with Lonestar right, probably supported the post-WWII settlements that saw MESS let some Cascadian desires be cast aside, souring Cascadia on its participation and killing any chance of joining MESS - alternatively, though, I'd always intended that the Cascadian Army's efforts were mostly in Old Dominion, which peaked at an entire WWII-style Army formation participating in the final operations that brought about the '46 ceasefire with Shepistan - not entirely out of the question since Canada fielded the 1st Canadian Army in the European Theater after Normandy). Can't be sure on Byzantium relations either, though distance indicates that it's probably not going to be anything but cordial.
As for other alliances, I'm not sure. Cascadian-Japanistani relations are likely to have never been anything better than cordial to icy disdain. We don't like Shepistan very much, likely. The Crimson Star Republic's Socialist/Communist ideology wouldn't be favored in Cascadia, though unless Stas and I want to make up some history of conflict between Adabani - New Olympia - and Ashant, which with the title of "Democratic Republic" I figure might be an old CSR client, it's possible Cascadia and the CSR got along well-enough over the decades. We probably consider the Shroomians a nutty little culture, though ultimately friendly, and the PeZookians are probably considered friendly as well (there may even be a semi-substantial number of descendants of PeZookian immigrants in Cascadia, from the "Second Wave" of immigration into the region).
THat said, after I manage to get a post on a Frequesue neutrality summit up, I'll probably also look into setting the stage for President Garrett to make a formal state visit to a series of Old Continent capitols, a bold new direction for Cascadia on the world stage.
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt
"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia
American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.
DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
In fact, Sea Skimmer is not using the point system but rather costing his military more realistically
Any Imperium with a 5 trillion GDP can technically have a military that would equal or surpass the Soviet one, given sufficient militarization. Such a GDP is large enough to have a Navy which may be just a little less strong than the USN, and a strategic bomber fleet that would make the US and USSR blush.
The point system also allows for some sort of balance between Army, Navy and Airforce, whereas without it, one could just boost all three while still being in the realm of the possible, economically.
"Realistically"? Well indeed, if your nation has a military larger than the US/NATO or USSR, while having, pardon me, 1/18 fraction of the respective territories - our largest nations have bascially the area of Mongolia to boot, and just ~1/3 the population of US/USSR, that doesn't sound terribly normal for a peacetime nation.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
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Frankly, it's Byzantium's problem that they are a part of the SNC and MESS at the same time: since if a MESS affair threatens to pull the SNC into a war they don't want, Byzantium will be simply cut loose.
Also, while Skimmer's army may be "neutered", it's easily strong enough to make Japanistan a serious threat, because none of the OC powers want war and the devastation it brings. You don't actually need to be able to squash us like bugs for us to be careful and fear war with you, and resort to diplomacy rather than sheer military might.
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Basically, one or the other alliance will lose a member - or may even implode completely if opinions on the action course diverge.
A huge war with Japanistan is not in our interests (but likewise, fighting with Shepistan in a large war against the MESS doesn't really seem to be in Japanistan's interest).
Especially as we still have the Border nations pulling off resources and peacekeeper units.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
I guess I'm NOT quitting, but I don't think I can play with 100% participation so I guess I'm relegating myself to a bit-background part until I can stick my nose in and stuff.
I'm just minimizing my role, but Shroomania will still exist and carry on. So, stuff like FUN and FASTA - and other allied Old Continent/etc. affairs - should still factor in Shroomanian involvement and support.
[Like, even though I'm not currently playing, you guys can use Prime Minister Shroom as a friendly NPC character if you guys need him for FUN conferences or something.]
You can still put "Shroom-" or "-shroom" in whatever silly thing you guys want. Like if that vampire shtick does go through, you can have a Count Shroomcula or something
NOSFESHROOMTO!
"DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source) shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN! Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people - PeZook Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
Stas Bush wrote:
P.S. I think it's high time we define alliances as one or other. I defer to the Moderator on a solution.
If the alliances are mutual defensive pacts which can be aimed at other members of the second alliance, yes.
Byzantium, right? They're the ones who have to choose, I believe, though I'm inclined to use my fiat to force them into the SNC to lop a bit off the MESS. Anyone object to that?
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Yeah, I do have to admit that a sonar ident is pretty poor. Is that a serious request for a moderator judgement, Skimmer?
Yes it is.
Its not like the sub is going to run a rampage across the globe if it doesn’t didn’t get sunk so quickly anyway, and plus is to track it back to whatever its home base just happens to be…. Sinking it deliberately in deep water, this does not compute
Did Arik correct this to your satisfaction already? Otherwise I'll do a mandatory retcon on it.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
I laid down the gauntlet, and I will do the same in a separate meeting with RogueIce and Arik in a separate meeting.
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
I have no objections to your SNC membership, but like Pezook, I see a direct war with Skimmer now absolutely not in our interests. Especially over Shepistan's territorial ambitions, not even Japanistans.
I see that the MESS seeks to protect Lonestar (OD) in the war, whom frankly the SNC has no relation to and should not really drag itself into a continental war because a war is running somewher between Shep and Lonestar.
Hell, even MESS members say that they will only come to Lonestar's aid if the war with Shepistan can't be contained to the Fucklands.
A temporary cooperation between SNC members and the MESS is possible - against a common threat or common goal. A constant alliance with them is impossible.
Kinda like the SCO can partner with NATO on say counter-terrorism, but not much more.
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To be honest, because of Skimmer, most of my home forces are tied up defending myself against Skimmer.
Which itself handicaps my ability to do anything for the MESS, beyond logistics.
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
If shit goes insane, with my non-participation, Shroomania might declare itself neutral to survive any future war.
Fuck neo-imperialism or colonialism. We're going to sell shit and get rich from peddling steroids, swiss knives, and chocolates.
"DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source) shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN! Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people - PeZook Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
Which itself handicaps my ability to do anything for the MESS, beyond logistics.
That, however, is itself important. You could serve as the "unsinkable carrier" for the MESS against Skimmer, or CSR, or anyone in the Old Continent.
Of course given your crucial role (the only MESS nation in the Old Continent) you would be probably given much assistance in case of war with Japanistan, but even if the MESS as a coherent alliance would pull out stuff like REFORGER, it would unlikely be more efficient and fast than the deployment of SNC forces into the area by rail, which would take mere days instead of many weeks something like REFORGER would take.
So pick what you will, MESS "emissary" in the O.C. or the SNC bulwark against the not-so-peaceful East... either is an important role.
Also, I never thought the FUN is a solid Mutual Defense Pact in this world - I thought it was something like the SCO (not a mutual defense pact but something like a cooperation thing), so as such FUN members have no common defense obligations?
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Reduce my status in the MESS to an observer role? Possible. I guess it is technically possible to ... renegotiate some terms...
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
Also, I never thought the FUN is a solid Mutual Defense Pact in this world - I thought it was something like the SCO (not a mutual defense pact but something like a cooperation thing), so as such FUN members have no common defense obligations?
It was never defined, so I just assumed it was, what it was in the last game.
Reduce my status in the MESS to an observer role? Possible. I guess it is technically possible to ... renegotiate some terms...
The FUN was supposed to have a mutual defense pact. It sort of did in the old game - except back then nations were kind of small. Anyway, the FUN is supposed to be a kind of brotherhood or friendship or stuff, so defending friends and allies would be part of the agenda, IMO.
"DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source) shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN! Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people - PeZook Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
The trouble with FUN was that it is now a mere fraction of the total number of nations.
Couple with the lack of geopolitical incentive to stay as one, FUN essentially hasn't even operated in the sense of an alliance.
FUN was born largely because of the central sea's position. Right now, its members are scattered here and there, and the FTO is busy ... doing their "war of the week", it is essentially, not even working.
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
Well... that sucks. The FUN'll be a mere shadow of its former self then, the remains of Shroomania's past sovereignty, a small network of nations with 'special relationships' with Shroomania. I hope Shroomania and PeZookia can keep their special relationship, though.
Maybe the FUN will be the new League of Unaligned Nations. Basically Shroomania, and whoever doesn't want in on a World War 3, can join together in the cause of neutrality.
Fuck it, we can even have Tonkin with us - anyone and everyone who doesn't want to get into any of the inevitable messes this world will get into.
"DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source) shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN! Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people - PeZook Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
"
- PeZook
