Rape Kit Costs and the GOP Ticket.

[Big Phil]

Ah, so we've gone from "you can't prove that they tend to do it" to "it's not their sole domain?" Nice goalpost-moving.

This

Nobody's claimed it was just conservatives responsible you fucking idiot. Just that they do so more than anyone else.

should be pretty damned easy to prove.

All the bitching and whining and nitpicking about moving goalposts is just you guys covering your asses while you fail to provide supporting evidence. Christ almighty, just provide the evidence...

[Darth Wong]

For fucks sake, it shouldn't be that damned hard to provide the evidence if the attitude is so commonplace. What the fuck is wrong with you people?

What is wrong with the evidence already presented? We have an Amnesty International survey on attitudes about rape blame, and the fact that prior sexual promiscuity is often used as evidence in rape trials. Why is that not evidence? Your attempt to dodge the connection between social conservatism and vilification of sexual promiscuity was laughably transparent and fools no one.

[General Zod]

You're a douchebag and a moron. Keep your stories straight, would you, while you're busy screeching about moving goalposts...

Try not being a lying troll for a change. I know it's hard.

Hey "Conservatives blame the woman for being raped" douchebags; this being N&P, why don't you show some evidence for this assertion?

If conservatives really blame the victim more so than moderates or liberals, it should be fairly easy to find evidence of this assertion.

blaming the victim is hardly the sole domain of social conservatives.

You went from "prove conservatives blame the woman", to "prove they blame the victim more than moderates or liberals" to "blaming the victim is the sole domain of conservatives". Anyone with more than 2 braincells can see you're conveniently shifting the goalposts every single time you're challenged. The last I checked, fallacious reasoning was still frowned on here.

[The Guid]

And yet again you don't ask questions in full.

The United States has the highest rape rate among countries which report such statistics. It is 4 times higher than that of Germany, 13 times higher than that of England and 20 times higher than that of Japan.

From here: http://sa.rochester.edu/masa/stats.php

Also, you can get rape rates by state here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_t ... tes#States

You'll find Red states tend to have the higher rape rates.

OK, commence goal post moving.

[Big Phil]

For fucks sake, it shouldn't be that damned hard to provide the evidence if the attitude is so commonplace. What the fuck is wrong with you people?

What is wrong with the evidence already presented? We have an Amnesty International survey on attitudes about rape blame, and the fact that prior sexual promiscuity is often used as evidence in rape trials. Why is that not evidence? Your attempt to dodge the connection between social conservatism and vilification of sexual promiscuity was laughably transparent and fools no one.

The argument is that social conservatives blame victims; the unstated flipside to that (and then overtly stated by Zod) is that liberals and moderates don't blame the victim in the same numbers.

The Amnesty International study you're referencing doesn't say who blames women, just that 1/3 of respondents do so. How does this study support the above claim?

[Darksider]

Here's a thought about some evidence Sanchez might not be able to refute.

Is is possible to get a list of votes for the states that have legislated an exception to their rape shield laws? I'm guessing there will be plenty of R's next to the yea votes on those. If we can provide proof that republican representatives primarily voted for the exceptions regarding prior sexual history, would that be acceptable to sanchez?

I've been looking for it all day, but I can't find anything.

[Big Phil]

Here's a thought about some evidence Sanchez might not be able to refute.

Is is possible to get a list of votes for the states that have legislated an exception to their rape shield laws? I'm guessing there will be plenty of R's next to the yea votes on those. If we can provide proof that republican representatives primarily voted for the exceptions regarding prior sexual history, would that be acceptable to sanchez?

I've been looking for it all day, but I can't find anything.

What would be ideal would be a study, like the Amnesty International study, that cuts the data further. Rather than just 1/3 blame the victim, taking that data and cutting it by gender, religion, ethnicity, political leanings, etc. I've seen studies that indicate men are more likely than women to blame the victim, as are those who are less well educated, but I haven't seen a cut that just flat out says "45% of social conservatives blame the victim vs. 25% of social liberals." Something like that ends the discussion.

[Darksider]

something to consider is that those who are less well educated are more likely to be socially conservative as well as being more likely to blame the victim in a rape trial.

[Big Phil]

And yet again you don't ask questions in full.

The United States has the highest rape rate among countries which report such statistics. It is 4 times higher than that of Germany, 13 times higher than that of England and 20 times higher than that of Japan.

From here: http://sa.rochester.edu/masa/stats.php

Also, you can get rape rates by state here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_t ... tes#States

You'll find Red states tend to have the higher rape rates.

OK, commence goal post moving.

Average rape rates per 100,000 population

Blue State (30.33)
Neutral State (37.15)
Red State (37.05)
US Population (32.2)

So, how does this prove that social conservatives blame the victim more than liberals? All it proves is that there is more rape in Red States.

[The Guid]

So you think that blame the victim mentality is not linked to rape? Or that social conservatism isn't linked to red states? Which of the above is true in your brain?

[Darth Wong]

What is wrong with the evidence already presented? We have an Amnesty International survey on attitudes about rape blame, and the fact that prior sexual promiscuity is often used as evidence in rape trials. Why is that not evidence? Your attempt to dodge the connection between social conservatism and vilification of sexual promiscuity was laughably transparent and fools no one.

The argument is that social conservatives blame victims; the unstated flipside to that (and then overtly stated by Zod) is that liberals and moderates don't blame the victim in the same numbers.

Which is quite reasonable, if the most prominent rationalization for blaming the victim is sexual promiscuity, which just happens to be the bogeyman of conservatives. What part of this do you not understand?

SEXUAL PROMISCUITY. Two words that you seem incapable of processing, because you never address arguments relating to them.

[Darksider]

Which is quite reasonable, if the most prominent rationalization for blaming the victim is sexual promiscuity, which just happens to be the bogeyman of conservatives. What part of this do you not understand?

Seriously. How much evidence do you need to prove that dumbass uneducated conservatives who hate sex are more likely to say "it's that sluts own damn fault she got raped" than anyone else?

[SirNitram]

Here's a thought about some evidence Sanchez might not be able to refute.

Is is possible to get a list of votes for the states that have legislated an exception to their rape shield laws? I'm guessing there will be plenty of R's next to the yea votes on those. If we can provide proof that republican representatives primarily voted for the exceptions regarding prior sexual history, would that be acceptable to sanchez?

I've been looking for it all day, but I can't find anything.

What would be ideal would be a study, like the Amnesty International study, that cuts the data further. Rather than just 1/3 blame the victim, taking that data and cutting it by gender, religion, ethnicity, political leanings, etc. I've seen studies that indicate men are more likely than women to blame the victim, as are those who are less well educated, but I haven't seen a cut that just flat out says "45% of social conservatives blame the victim vs. 25% of social liberals." Something like that ends the discussion.

And observing that the GOP majority voted to keep the financial responsibility on the victim doesn't 'end the discussion'?

Let me put this in smaller sentences, maybe that's what you need. When you bill someone, you make it their responsibility.

[Darth Wong]

It would appear that SanchezTheWhaler does not consider something to be evidence if any kind of interpretation or reasoning are necessary. That's more than a little unreasonable.

[Plekhanov]

It's no secret that social conservatives tend to the 'she was asking for it' way of thinking, in fact they writecolumnsand make speeches proudly arguing just that.

The above examples aren't out of the ordinary: research has shown that:

Males and those upholding traditional gender role beliefs were more likely to accept certain myths that blame the woman, excuse the male, and justify acquaintance rape compared to females and those who supported less traditional gender role beliefs.

Source

There is also a Co-occurrence of rape myth acceptance, sexism, racism, homophobia, ageism, classism, and religious intolerance or in other words a co-occurrence of rape myth acceptence with social conservatism.

[Big Phil]

It would appear that SanchezTheWhaler does not consider something to be evidence if any kind of interpretation or reasoning are necessary. That's more than a little unreasonable.

I consider it insufficient when much better evidence exists, such as that posted by Plekhanov, and you are simply too lazy to find and post it.

Point happily conceded.

[The Guid]

Do you not appreciate though that all of the above evidence was enough anyway, especially as you have been proven totally wrong? Look through it again and see if you can't work out again what we were saying and why it made sense considering that you know now that we were right.

[Darth Wong]

It would appear that SanchezTheWhaler does not consider something to be evidence if any kind of interpretation or reasoning are necessary. That's more than a little unreasonable.

I consider it insufficient when much better evidence exists, such as that posted by Plekhanov, and you are simply too lazy to find and post it.

Point happily conceded.

So if superior evidence exists, than all lesser evidence is automatically inadequate? What kind of fucktard logic is that? Any evidence which supports the conclusion is adequate, moron. The fact that even better evidence exists does not change that. You're just desperately looking for some way to vindicate your fucktard behaviour.

[Metatwaddle]

There's also a pretty clear Senate roll call at the bill Nitram linked to in his OP.

Among Democrats: 54 ayes, 2 nays
Among Republicans: 7 ayes, 36 nays, 1 not voting.

I don't know all of the names from that list - it was from 1994 - but when you consider who was a social liberal and a social conservative within the party, the differences are even more stark. Let's look at the aye-voting Republicans: (these are from 1994 so I had to do some Googling)

-Jim Jeffords later left the Republican party and became an independent who caucused with the Democrats. Basically an awesome social liberal.
-Lincoln Chafee is pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, and anti-Iraq war. The last liberal Republican to hold high office, IMHO.
-Arlen Specter is a well-known social moderate-to-liberal. A little unpredictable, but definitely pro-choice, and voted against the anti-gay marriage amendment (though he chose to hold the committee vote behind closed doors, which pissed a lot of people off).
-William Cohen of Maine, as far as I can tell, was known in the Senate as a moderate. As Clinton's Secretary of Defense he defended Don't Ask, Don't Tell, but last year he went on the record opposing it.
-John Danforth of Missouri was an Episcopal priest, but did not like the Christian right at all - in fact, he wrote a book ripping into them after he retired. Voted against abortion rights, but also against school prayer. Known as a church-state separation advocate.
-Nancy Kassebaum of Kansas was not extremely liberal, but moderately feminist. She supported the ERA and abortion rights.
-Bill Roth of Delaware was a fiscal archconservative, but slightly more moderate on social issues. He supported gun control and strict environmental protection.

So that's seven Republican ayes... and they're all social moderates or liberals.

How about the two nay-voting Democrats?
-Richard Shelby is now a Republican. From Alabama. And votes like one. Loves fetuses, hates gay people.
-Russ Feingold. I seriously have no idea.

Voting for this bill that Nitram linked to is strongly correlated with Democratic party affiliation, and even more strongly with social liberalism. Of course, the text of the bill doesn't officially point a finger at rape victims - but it does show a clear lack of compassion for their plights.

[SirNitram]

Of course, the text of the bill doesn't officially point a finger at rape victims - but it does show a clear lack of compassion for their plights.

Out and out disagree, for what it's worth. It is the most real and solid manifestation of 'Blame the victim' to make the victim the one financially responsible. Because the essence of 'Blame the victim' is 'It's their responsibility what happens to them, not anyone elses.'

[The Yosemite Bear]

Well isn't this some form of advanced mysogny?

I mean, rural under developed regions have a higher rate of guys who think that they have the right to sex and the woman doesn't have any say then civilized areas. putting undo burden on the victim to shoulder the burden of a portion of the costs of the prosecution, also there's the male dominated reluctance of prosecutors to prosecute sexual assualt cases. and a state that doesn't support giving women any options afterwards and more punishment.

that's just evil.

[Plekhanov]

I'm trying to understand what the origin and justification of this incomprehensible policy is. Do the victims of other types of crime have to pay for basic police work to be done in their cases in the US, for example burglary victims have to pay finger prints to be taken, drive by victims ballistics reports and so forth? Or are rape victims alone in this?

[The Yosemite Bear]

to my knowledge this is unique to her state, and to sexual assualt. Although until the last 20 years or so, there used to be lots of barriers to prosecute domestic violence crimes. And Rape shield laws have only come out in your more progressive states given the natural defense tactic to smear the victim.

[Dark Hellion]

How did I get dragged into Sanchez silly tirade? I wasn't saying that there was a direct correlation (which the mounds of evidence prove) but that when a group maintains a collective silence on some issue which would cause normal persons to be outraged, it speaks to the mindset of the group as condoning of such behavior. An old book of fairy tales once said "All it takes for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing." I think that is appropriate to quote when dealing with evangelic christian conservatives views on rape and other sex crimes.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Assuming she's a taxpayer herself, wouldn't she already be contributing to the process? This seems like charging her extra, even though she undoubtedly already contributes to police funding, justified on the grounds that they don't want the taxpayers to be burdened... ...