Startopia and Star Trek Voyager shooters

[Stark]

Yeah, the level design is so great I can't even remember anything about Halflife beyond the opening test chamber.

On the other hand, I can remember E1M1 of both Doom 1 and 2....

So fucking what? Or are you saying that Doom is 'more' important than Half-life? Oh yeah, I forgot complex level geometry, excellent scripted events for the period and varied environments don't matter because YOU FORGOT ABOUT THEM. I'm not going to bother pointing out a Doom level isn't even as big as the fucking corridors you walk through to GET to the test chamber, so your example is even MORE retarded.

One day people will stop equating 'I like' with 'is good'. Oh no, I can objectively identify quality! I can realise a game I don't personally like might have been cutting-edge and successful at the time! SHIT!

[Stargate Nerd]

Listen to yourself. Everything you just said is subjective crap.

I don't see where I claimed otherwise.

Half-life had actual objective things going for it, like interesting level design (as much as I might hate the platform silliness), varied levels, better AI for the time, etc etc.

Compared to what? Who's being subjective now? Interesting level design? Whoever determines that? Varied levels? Dumping you into some weird platform dimension a few times while you spend the rest of your time in Black Mesa makes for varied level design?

I'm not a huge Valve fan and I don't give a shit what you think about anything, but it offends me that you think people care that you 'couldn't get into the Half-life spirit'. What the FUCK does that even MEAN?

It's not my problem if you're looking for something to get offended about. Last I checked I made a joking remark about Raven games not being shit and you huffed and puffed about me being a fanboy and proceeded to call every FPS besides Half-Life donkey ball suckers. Another offense of subjective crap I might add.

You're saying a game is bad because you weren't channeling Baron Samedi, but you say Elite Force was good EVEN THOUGH YOU CAN'T REMEMBER IT? Like I just said, your opinion is a simple baseless statement (since you can barely remember the game at all) but you'll 'defend' it without actually applying any reasoning at all.

Actually I hardly defended it. I just shared my personal view that I didn't like Half-Life as much as you seemingly do. Nowhere did I claim that Elite Force >>> Half-Life.

Even though I think Valve hasn't made a good game in ten years, that subjective attitude doesn't change the fact that Half-life was gaming milestone and Elite Force was a piece of crap generic shooter with a starfleet skin applied. I-mod, anyone? lol!

See more of that Half-Life worship, which I simply can't share.

It's an amusing comeback to 'brand loyalty is stupid' to say 'well I don't even remember the game'. Next you'll doubtless get pissy for me not 'respecting' your 'opinion'. Statements you can't discuss or explain are utterly worthless.

Last I checked this wasn't a best shooter debate, so there was no reason for me to list concrete reasons why or why not Elite Force was good or bad. You just seem to be looking for an argument.

[Stark]

I don't see where I claimed otherwise.

So you agree? Excellent.

Compared to what? Who's being subjective now? Interesting level design? Whoever determines that? Varied levels? Dumping you into some weird platform dimension a few times while you spend the rest of your time in Black Mesa makes for varied level design?

I actually can't believe you're this pathetic. So... having variety, successful scripting, and the whole set of water/fire/high/low/tunnel/climbing/running/conveyor/etc levels standard in platformers is SUBJECTIVE now?

If I posted pictures of these things, would they still be subjective? Sure, the level design is pretty -DUMB- (meat packing factory in super-secret lab, lol), but the levels exist and they're more interesting than Quake 2 unless you like brown. The game actually changes pace and offers differing challenges as the game progresses. You don't have to like the game to admit this stuff.

It's not my problem if you're looking for something to get offended about. Last I checked I made a joking remark about Raven games not being shit and you huffed and puffed about me being a fanboy and proceeded to call every FPS besides Half-Life donkey ball suckers. Another offense of subjective crap I might add.

Yeah, it was such a joke you defended it. Just ... like people do, instead of saying 'lol *I'm a smarmy asshole* Raven lol'. Thanks for ignoring the point, anyway - you claim Half-life is bad because 'you didn't feel it' or whatever and demonstrate no ability to actually examine the content of the game. Sorry, whether or not it kissed you goodnight is not relevant.

Actually I hardly defended it. I just shared my personal view that I didn't like Half-Life as much as you seemingly do. Nowhere did I claim that Elite Force >>> Half-Life.

Yeah, except where you say 'lol nah EF is good' and then 'zomg Half-life is horrible because it didn't make me see Jesus and anyone who can describe it's strengths is being subjective because because'. Seemed pretty clear that your attitude was 'EF is okay/good, Half-life is crap because I didn't feel the holy spirit'.

I mean holy shit, you're so mentally broken you automatically assume someone who can talk about the pros of a game likes it. I 'seemingly' like a game because I can acknowledge it's success? I guess when I say Sims is inarguably a successful game, that means I like it, and that 'successful' is subjective. LOL!

See more of that Half-Life worship, which I simply can't share.

It really pisses me off that you're the kind of football-team idiot who thinks anyone saying anything positive about Half-life is 'worship' and that if you can't 'share' it it's 'wrong' or 'subjective'. I hear games don't have objective and measurable attributes and it's impossible to talk about positive attributes if you don't like the game?

Oh wait, you're intellectually bankrupt. Because we're not retards like you, Ohma and I can actually discuss pros and cons of a game we like, instead of just posting 'WOW IS GOOD I LIKE IT YAY'. Try thinking.

Last I checked this wasn't a best shooter debate, so there was no reason for me to list concrete reasons why or why not Elite Force was good or bad. You just seem to be looking for an argument.

Your response to 'statements you can't explain are worthless'? Wah wah I don't want to explain it! Hilarious.

I'm not looking for an argument; I just find dickless cretins like you extraordinarily offensive. Liking something is subjective - it's quality is not. Once fucking morons like you understand that, the world will be a better place. Everything you like isn't good, and you don't have to like everything of high quality. OH MY GOD!

[Stargate Nerd]

I actually can't believe you're this pathetic. So... having variety, successful scripting, and the whole set of water/fire/high/low/tunnel/climbing/running/conveyor/etc levels standard in platformers is SUBJECTIVE now?

If I posted pictures of these things, would they still be subjective? Sure, the level design is pretty -DUMB- (meat packing factory in super-secret lab, lol), but the levels exist and they're more interesting than Quake 2 unless you like brown. The game actually changes pace and offers differing challenges as the game progresses. You don't have to like the game to admit this stuff.

The term interesting is damn near the epitome of subjective dickhead. What you might find interesting will not necessarily interest someone else.

As for Half-Life, it's remembered for it's new take on story telling and it's more or less continuous level design (as in innovative) rather than the hack the game into different levels design that preceded it. That's what makes it a milestone.

Yeah, it was such a joke you defended it. Just ... like people do, instead of saying 'lol *I'm a smarmy asshole* Raven lol'. Thanks for ignoring the point, anyway - you claim Half-life is bad because 'you didn't feel it' or whatever and demonstrate no ability to actually examine the content of the game. Sorry, whether or not it kissed you goodnight is not relevant.

How the fuck did I defend it? I didn't even reply to your remark about
brand loyalty, I changed the subject to Half-Life, which any sane person would understand as an acknowledgment that yes EF probably wasn't good. Aside from the dorky smiley in the first post and my admitting to Bounty that I don't even remember he fucking game. But they must have made you extra dense.

Yeah, except where you say 'lol nah EF is good' and then 'zomg Half-life is horrible because it didn't make me see Jesus and anyone who can describe it's strengths is being subjective because because'. Seemed pretty clear that your attitude was 'EF is okay/good, Half-life is crap because I didn't feel the holy spirit'.

Hyperbole. Don't exaggerate or better yet don't make up shit. Nowhere in this thread did I claim that EF was a good game.

And nowhere did I call Half-Life horrible. I said that I prefer the mission based gameplay of Allied Assault and Goldeneye to the "innovative" level design in Half-Life.

I mean holy shit, you're so mentally broken you automatically assume someone who can talk about the pros of a game likes it. I 'seemingly' like a game because I can acknowledge it's success? I guess when I say Sims is inarguably a successful game, that means I like it, and that 'successful' is subjective. LOL!

No but you act like a hurt bitch after someone didn't share their enthusiasm for a particular object of worship. What do I care or better know what your true feelings about Half-Life are, I only see the way you react.

It really pisses me off that you're the kind of football-team idiot who thinks anyone saying anything positive about Half-life is 'worship' and that if you can't 'share' it it's 'wrong' or 'subjective'. I hear games don't have objective and measurable attributes and it's impossible to talk about positive attributes if you don't like the game?

Fuck outta here. I can acknowledge that Forza is a very good racing game, but not like it because I prefer arcade racers like Burnout or Ridge Racer. But it doesn't mean that I have to huff and puff if someone doesn't like Forza. You're acting in a very irrational manner and and expect me to read your intentions correctly. Gimme a fuckin break.

Oh wait, you're intellectually bankrupt. Because we're not retards like you, Ohma and I can actually discuss pros and cons of a game we like, instead of just posting 'WOW IS GOOD I LIKE IT YAY'. Try thinking.

I'm actually quite the opposite, but you seem to have some anger management issues.

I'm not looking for an argument; I just find dickless cretins like you extraordinarily offensive. Liking something is subjective - it's quality is not. Once fucking morons like you understand that, the world will be a better place. Everything you like isn't good, and you don't have to like everything of high quality. OH MY GOD!

Yeah whatever. I'm not the one acting like a bitchy drama queen.

[Ohma]

Mang, i just loaded Startopia back up and I realized I'd forgotten just how fun it is. It really is more like Space Theme Hospital than Space Dungeon Keeper, which is probably exactly why the interface doesn't scale well (TH worked because you'd probably only have like, 50 dudes to keep track of at most in three or four buildings, DK was much more, uh, more dudes?).

But man, who cares about that because the game still rocks.

[Stark]

The term interesting is damn near the epitome of subjective dickhead. What you might find interesting will not necessarily interest someone else.

As for Half-Life, it's remembered for it's new take on story telling and it's more or less continuous level design (as in innovative) rather than the hack the game into different levels design that preceded it. That's what makes it a milestone.

You ARE claiming level design is subjective! That's -hilarious-. Next time anyone says Gore had worse level design than Half-life, I'll be sure to remind them that any comparison of design, scripting and variety is totally subjective and invalid!

How the fuck did I defend it? I didn't even reply to your remark about
brand loyalty, I changed the subject to Half-Life, which any sane person would understand as an acknowledgment that yes EF probably wasn't good. Aside from the dorky smiley in the first post and my admitting to Bounty that I don't even remember he fucking game. But they must have made you extra dense.

Hyperbole. Don't exaggerate or better yet don't make up shit. Nowhere in this thread did I claim that EF was a good game.

And nowhere did I call Half-Life horrible. I said that I prefer the mission based gameplay of Allied Assault and Goldeneye to the "innovative" level design in Half-Life.

Oh, and I thought you said you didn't like it because you 'didn't feel it', which is clearly less subjective than 'textures are good' and 'levels have more variety'. Please claim you never said this, so I can wonder why you're even arguing with someone who criticises an attitude you apparently don't share.

No but you act like a hurt bitch after someone didn't share their enthusiasm for a particular object of worship. What do I care or better know what your true feelings about Half-Life are, I only see the way you react.

Uh... learn to read. I don't care about your ridiculous and totally baseless attitudes toward games; your broken and simplistic attitde of 'WAH SUBJECTIVE' simply offends me because it's WRONG. Your opinion is NOT worth the same as mine, because yours is based on subjective whining and I can explain mine with reference to facts. What you like or not is totally irrelevant, I just hate whiners who try to buttress their opinions by saying 'ZOMG SUBJECTIVE'.

Fuck outta here. I can acknowledge that Forza is a very good racing game, but not like it because I prefer arcade racers like Burnout or Ridge Racer. But it doesn't mean that I have to huff and puff if someone doesn't like Forza. You're acting in a very irrational manner and and expect me to read your intentions correctly. Gimme a fuckin break.

I guess that explains why you instantly came to the defence of a game you don't even remember? Oh sorry, that was me misunderstanding you, which is a terrible tragedy and unfair only when it happens to you!

I'm actually quite the opposite, but you seem to have some anger management issues.

I think you mean IDIOT management issues. Liking a piece of music might be subjective, but the number of notes and instruments is not. You would claim otherwise, apparently, to better equate all opinions to defend your own.

Yeah whatever. I'm not the one acting like a bitchy drama queen.

Yeah, so bitchy I have a clearly explained rationale while you simply defend things unthinkingly. Clearly you're the smart one here, lol.

Ohma, I realised it was more Theme Space Station than DK-like when I had a bash the other day - it's definately about management more than warfare. I blame the announcer guy.

[Stargate Nerd]

You ARE claiming level design is subjective! That's -hilarious-. Next time anyone says Gore had worse level design than Half-life, I'll be sure to remind them that any comparison of design, scripting and variety is totally subjective and invalid!

Stark resorts to lying.

Oh, and I thought you said you didn't like it because you 'didn't feel it', which is clearly less subjective than 'textures are good' and 'levels have more variety'. Please claim you never said this, so I can wonder why you're even arguing with someone who criticises an attitude you apparently don't share.

Starky not liking something because you didn't feel it is perfectly okay. Because that's your subjective opinion. Calling something horrible because you didn't feel it is what's stupid. For someone making a big stink about the difference between the subjective and the objective, you don't seem to have a good grasp on either subject at all. The foam around your mouth is all you have.

As for arguing, last I checked you attacked me like a lunatic. If I get attacked and accused I respond even if ignoring the moron might be more beneficial.

Uh... learn to read. I don't care about your ridiculous and totally baseless attitudes toward games; your broken and simplistic attitde of 'WAH SUBJECTIVE' simply offends me because it's WRONG. Your opinion is NOT worth the same as mine, because yours is based on subjective whining and I can explain mine with reference to facts. What you like or not is totally irrelevant, I just hate whiners who try to buttress their opinions by saying 'ZOMG SUBJECTIVE'.

Bark, bark, bark. You can't even stay on topic.
Stating that you prefer mission based gameplay over the Half-Life experience is perfectly sound statement. If you have a problem with that statement, you're arguing taste and only morons do that.

I guess that explains why you instantly came to the defence of a game you don't even remember? Oh sorry, that was me misunderstanding you, which is a terrible tragedy and unfair only when it happens to you!

Starky rinsing and repeating and resorting to ignoring your statements. Either he's dishonest or he's a jackass. Can't decide what's worse.

I think you mean IDIOT management issues. Liking a piece of music might be subjective, but the number of notes and instruments is not. You would claim otherwise, apparently, to better equate all opinions to defend your own.

Yeah I understand perfectly. I can't prefer rock to rap because the latter doesn't have guitars on stage. Very sound argument there champ. Keep it up.

Yeah, so bitchy I have a clearly explained rationale while you simply defend things unthinkingly. Clearly you're the smart one here, lol.

Starky padding himself on the shoulder and resorting to outright lies.

[Crayz9000]

All I remember about Elite Force was that it made me want to add the weapons and such to Jedi Knight II for a ST/SW mod...

[Ohma]

But man, who cares about that because the game still rocks.

Aaaaaaaand then I ran face first into the combat mission again and remembered why I gave up on the campaign mode.

*sigh*

It wouldn't be nearly as irritating if there were some way to tell what the shit I'm apparently doing wrong in the game's mind (I mean I *guess* I could use more dudes, but I could use a lot of other things that actually make me money rather than sit around most of the time waiting for the other guy to attack me cause I'll be fucked about doing that myself when I could be making more shit to make me more money).

And also, whose bright idea was it to have blasters use energy? God damn fucking bullshit that's what that is. AND WHY CAN'T I JUST SELL MY OPPONENT'S CRAPPY LITTLE BUILDINGS OFF WHEN I TAKE OVER THEIR SECTION AAAAAAAUUUUUUGHFFFFFFFFFFFF!

So sandbox mode it is then, cause seriously, fuck the combat mechanics in this game.

[Palantas]

I played the first Elite Force game, and nothing really stands out in my memory. Well, that's not entirely true. It was fun running about firing a phasor at stuff, though that novelty wore off fairly quickly. Elite Force was a decent shooter in its day, though it hasn't aged well. I really can't recommend it, given all the shooters out there to play.

Some comments on the thread:

EF was a hilarious disaster, the only saving grace is that back then, pretty much EVERY shooter that wasn't Half-life sucked donkey balls.

I wouldn't describe it as a "hilarious disaster." It was well-received critically at the time. I agree that Half-Life was the high-point of shooters when Elite Force came out, thought I don't think every other shooter sucked. Quake III, Unreal Tournament, and Tribes were great for fast-paced multiplayer.

Half-Life imo wasn't all that special.

Even if you didn’t like it, I think you have to admit that Half-Life was a historically significant shooter.

[Coalition]

Aaaaaaaand then I ran face first into the combat mission again and remembered why I gave up on the campaign mode.

*sigh*

It wouldn't be nearly as irritating if there were some way to tell what the shit I'm apparently doing wrong in the game's mind (I mean I *guess* I could use more dudes, but I could use a lot of other things that actually make me money rather than sit around most of the time waiting for the other guy to attack me cause I'll be fucked about doing that myself when I could be making more shit to make me more money).

Assuming you are talking about Startopia:
Best stunt I found for combat is just staying in your territory, and killing the opponents as they cross. Kill their Fuzzers first so they cannot retake the section (or capture yours), and you are a bit safer. A Turret next to where the security stations are will help. Put one on your side (to keep the section from being captured), and one near the opponent station (so any Fuzzers that try to close the section get shot up/destroyed. A Security Station will increase their range.

Each person killed is a 1000 credit fine, so you are better off letting the enemy kill themselves against your defenses. Once they have exhausted themselves, then grab their territory. Have all your troops guard the control console, and send a Fuzzer to capture.

Just grab one section at a time, build up with Turrets, and expand from there. I never bother with capuring the Biodeck or the entertainment deck, I just work my way across the Industrial level, trying to capture the Energy Collector. If I take all the energy Collectors, that faction is out of the scenario. I can then grab their Entertainment and Bio- Decks without interference.

And also, whose bright idea was it to have blasters use energy? God damn fucking bullshit that's what that is. AND WHY CAN'T I JUST SELL MY OPPONENT'S CRAPPY LITTLE BUILDINGS OFF WHEN I TAKE OVER THEIR SECTION AAAAAAAUUUUUUGHFFFFFFFFFFFF!

So sandbox mode it is then, cause seriously, fuck the combat mechanics in this game.

You can sell off enemy buildings. You disassemble the building, and toss the boxes in a Recycler (you did build a Recycler, right)? You will need a few Fuzzers to make sure the Salt Hogs are honest, but after that, toss trash, excess buildings, dead bodies, etc into the Recycler for money.