SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread II

[Czechmate]

A full-deck carrier is waaaay out of the FTO's league. That said, I'm still offering you guys the IRT CVL design, but I haven't figured out the cost yet ...

The Tian Jian CVL design the IRT has illegally copied for profit , you mean? ¬_¬

I will be upgrading or replacing my two Wake Island-class CVLs within the next five years. FTO, take heed; one of these light carriers is approximately the equivalent of the Vikramaditya-class CVL the PRSF formerly operated, but capable of CATOBAR operations up to the approximate MTOW of an F-4 Phantom.

And I am willing to sell one (without airwing, though that is negotiable) for about 3 billion dollars within the next two game years, to allow funding to upgrade the other with flightdeck sponsons and new catapults in order to extend its' service life by another couple decades.

I have been unable to find anything more than pictures, but I have estimated the vessels as being around 35-40,000 tons displacement, roughly in the neighborhood of a Tarawa, closer to a Wasp. An image of the Wake, with a 'strike' airwing configuration visible for a sense of scale, can be found here:

http://s380.photobucket.com/albums/oo24 ... n_deck.png

And yes. That is twenty F/A-18C Hornet strikefighters and four RF-18C armed reconnaisance versions. One can safely assume a small compliment of two MH-60S Knighthawk utility helicopters could be found in the ship's hangar and that the ship's E-2CL Hawkeye is up in the air somewhere. I lack topviews of the S-3, E-2, and SH/MH-60, so you'll just have to deal with it.

The more normal airwing of such a ship, at least in TJN service, is half as many Hornets (12), plus six antisub helicopters, four antisub planes, and three utility helicopters. One could also configure the airwing as entirely ASW, with nothing but Seahawks and Vikings and possibly Sea Dragons, for maximum effect.

/end data dump.

EDIT: credit for the base image goes to Shipbucket and one of the artists there. can't remember who, but all I did was modify it slightly, widen the lifts, change the national markings, and remove the stupid 'shadow' effects.

[Karmic Knight]

A full-deck carrier is waaaay out of the FTO's league. That said, I'm still offering you guys the IRT CVL design, but I haven't figured out the cost yet ...

That would kind of be a stickler, as I personally don't want to pay a lot for what amounts to a ceremonial vessel. The others may disagree, but I feel we have no real need for a carrier, other than psychological warfare.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

A full-deck carrier is waaaay out of the FTO's league. That said, I'm still offering you guys the IRT CVL design, but I haven't figured out the cost yet ...

That would kind of be a stickler, as I personally don't want to pay a lot for what amounts to a ceremonial vessel. The others may disagree, but I feel we have no real need for a carrier, other than psychological warfare.

I would dread to see that carrier, once a proud Byzantine vessel, now a rusting hunk in somebody's dockyard.

[Karmic Knight]

I would dread to see that carrier, once a proud Byzantine vessel, now a rusting hunk in somebody's dockyard.

It would more likely be a rusting hulk floating around the continent toward the next invasion of Coiler, internal Civil War, random Coup, evil tyrant, etc..

[phongn]

For a comparison, here is the IRT's CVL configuration (courtesy Howedar)

[Zor]

Just to inform you, Zorian Norse Priests are going to be setting up shop in your nations.

Zor

[Karmic Knight]

Just to inform you, Zorian Norse Priests are going to be setting up shop in your nations.

Zor

I'll alert the Catholic Priest I was going to have lead the Cult of Space to prepare the stakes and fire.

[Shroom Man 777]

Will Zorian Viking Priests be willing to sanctify Shroomanian steroids?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Byzantine Empire is generally a lot more secular these days, but Byzantine Orthodox church still dominates.

Of course, in Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic priests and the Orthodox Catholic Priests engage in regular turf wars, with the Patriarch of Jerusalem and Cardinal of Jerusalem having had their regular "beard yanking fights".

[Czechmate]

For a comparison, here is the IRT's CVL configuration (courtesy Howedar)

I need to set up A-4 factories, I think. It's like they were made for light-carrier operations.

btw nice drawing. I'm totally stealing those Seahawk and Viking topviews, but I'll note credit for them.

[Shroom Man 777]

@ the Jerusalem Beard Battles:

That is awesome.

I think Langley and Zoria are also Shroomanian Commonwealths.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I guess Constantinople Shipyards should get down to write out a cheap carrier to sell to people.

@ the Jerusalem Beard Battles:

That is awesome.

I think Langley and Zoria are also Shroomanian Commonwealths.

Indeed. Imagine 2 old men yanking off each others' beards.

[Shroom Man 777]

When the Vikings come, it shall be an escalation of the Beard Race!

You will need manly Hebrews with great bushy beards to counter the infidels and the Gentiles. Or something.

Like Canaanites.

[Zor]

Of course, in Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic priests and the Orthodox Catholic Priests engage in regular turf wars, with the Patriarch of Jerusalem and Cardinal of Jerusalem having had their regular "beard yanking fights".

But can they best a veteran Zorian Norse Priest in an Ale Drinking Contest?

Zor

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Of course, in Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic priests and the Orthodox Catholic Priests engage in regular turf wars, with the Patriarch of Jerusalem and Cardinal of Jerusalem having had their regular "beard yanking fights".

But can they best a veteran Zorian Norse Priest in an Ale Drinking Contest?

Zor

Good Lord, I don't want to imagine them taking that stuff and fighting. Things are bad enough with altar wine, never mind vodka.

They'd start a Religious Crusade against each other.

[Siege]

Yeah, but the costs of setup, to get the shipyards ready, to set up the relevant logistics, plus the fact you don't have the shipyard capacity to produce too many, means you are going to face lots of extra costs in addition to the price of materials and construction.

We do have the shipyard capacity. Not to build all 20+ destroyers in three years, granted, but if we split construction between me and Baerne we ought to be able to do 4 a year or so. Bearing in mind that this is actually a modified version of a ship both Baerne and San Dorado have already produced in the past, and that there will be half a dozen nations producing standardized parts I doubt that logistics are going to be such an insurmountable problem.

Add in the boost to the local economy, the prestige, and the knowledge base that construction of the ships on the continent will bring with it, and I'll have you kindly know that I suspect Byzantium is spreading propaganda to deter us from becoming serious competition to its own products .

That would kind of be a stickler, as I personally don't want to pay a lot for what amounts to a ceremonial vessel. The others may disagree, but I feel we have no real need for a carrier, other than psychological warfare.

Yeah, we've got our own unsinkable aircraft carrier, in the form of our continent. What do we need a huge carrier for?

Anyway, Standard class orders so far are 16, and San Dorado will be buying at least four or five as well (spread over FY09, 10 and 11), so that's a good 20 sold already.

PS: a whisper to the Indhopali navy, we're working on a submarine, but design is going to take a while longer since we haven't really had much design experience with something like that (and we're still figuring out what has to go into it). If you have any ideas, you're welcome to talk to us.

[Shroom Man 777]

You can talk to Shroomania if you want help in building submarines and stuff. We'd be willing to lend you expertise, for a modest fee and such.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Add in the boost to the local economy, the prestige, and the knowledge base that construction of the ships on the continent will bring with it, and I'll have you kindly know that I suspect Byzantium is spreading propaganda to deter us from becoming serious competition to its own products .

Of course, but propaganda with truth.

I'm about to announce a couple of new destroyer (more like a cruiser) classes soon, of which one is designed specifically to support the destruction of carriers.

As for submarines, existing designs, namely the Type 212 which I use, is way more than enough. There is a smaller design in the works, but my own navy might not bother to purchase it, beyond using it for stealth insertion operations. The reason why I hardly mention of this, is because in the real world, no prototyping has been done, yet. Submarines are extremely complicated beasts to design.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

To add to what I said, the 3 designs in the real world which I am studying are:

1. DCNS SMX-23: Double hulled submarine with high levels of automation, in the 1000 tonne class. Designed for low maintenance, high endurance quietness, and with all the latest in electronic gadgetry. With a surface displacement of 855 metric tons, the SMX-23 will have a range of 1,850 nautical miles at a speed of 8 kts or 3,000 miles at 4 kts. At this speed, it will have an underwater endurance of 60 hours on its batteries, and will be able to remain at sea for two weeks.

2. TKMS Type 210Mod: Takes the orignal Type 210, manufacture it with HY80 steel, add other fancy things like lithium-ion batteries. With that, the company claims to be able to reach 4000miles at 4kts, due to depth of 250feet (compared to 200feet).

3. Fincanteri/Rubin S1000: This sub, unlike the above 2, fits an AIP into the submarine to promise endurance similar to the SMX-23.

Incidentally, all the above submarines have an X-form rudder.

What I could offer, is co-designing of one of the above 3 submarines. So you get

1. Experience in designing submarines,
2. Establishment of a submarine fabrication facility, locally.
3. Co-ownership of the copyright and access to all the top secret little details for the entire sub, since you co-designed it.

Otherwise, if you are going for a heavier design like the Type 212 or Scorpene, go with existing designs, which ... if you reallly really want to, build a local fabrication facility, which I might add, cost quite a bit.

[Shroom Man 777]

You can have Shroomania build you some submarines of similar capability as well.

I'm very impressed with the Fincanteri/Rubin S1000, the Ula class submarine - and if Fingolfin won't build em, then I will!

The Ula class submarines are among the most silent and manoeuverable submarines in the world. This, in combination with the relatively small size, makes them difficult to detect from surface vessels and ideal for operations in coastal areas. During the annual NATO Joint Winter exercise in 2004, the HNoMS Utvær had to be disqualified from the exercise because it kept the entire landing operation at bay.[2] It simply "sank" too many vessels. Including the Royal Navy flagship HMS Invincible. The Ula class submarines are regarded as both the most effective and cost-effective weapons in the RNoN.

Oh, and I can also build nuclear batteries for your subs! I already did for PeZook!

[Siege]

I think Indhopal may have some experience building subs as well (as does San Dorado, but so far we only built two SSNs with Shroomanian help which isn't going to be much use considering what we want to build). We're looking for a cheap, survivable sub that can launch a truckload of cruise missiles (somewhat like that Japanistani sub that can fire SCUDs) in addition to the usual torpedo load.

Nuclear power is good for endurance, but not for cost, so I'm thinking that's probably right out for now.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Ula submarines aren't the same as the S1000. The S1000 hasn't even been built yet. Incidentally, the Ula is a Type 210, which is an older version of the Type 210Mod.

Do nuclear batteries deliver as much power density as conventional ones?

Actually Sweden has some nice subs that might be worth looking at. The A26 is the codename for the next class. Not to mention a Sea Dagger mini-sub that I might be inclined to produce for myself.

Actually, of the above 3 submarines, I'm inclined to like the German one, the Type210Mod best. In part because it is made of better steel and can dive deeper. Then again, it's really a toss up between the 3 which is why I haven't decided to build any of them.

By the way, I would expect them to only see service next year.

[K. A. Pital]

Something the size of an Ula can't be nuclear, can it?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Something the size of an Ula can't be nuclear, can it?

No, the Ula is a diesel, well suited for coastal operations. It incidentally is a Type 210 submarine, an older version of the one I'm proposing.

I think Indhopal may have some experience building subs as well. What we're looking for, though, is a cheap, survivable sub that can launch a truckload of cruise missiles (somewhat like that Japanistani sub that can fire SCUDs) in addition to the usual torpedo load.

Nuclear power is good for endurance, but not for cost, so I'm thinking that's probably right out for now.

If you are going for kind of sub, then the sub will be quite large, since the missile is likely mounted VLS. I would imagine that you will need something of an enlarged Scorpene/Type 212 for that.

[K. A. Pital]

Shroom Man 777,