SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread II

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-09-16 04:04am

Frankly, if Japanistan really doesn't care, he shouldn't be making demands for us to stop any sort of public activity.

If the opposite is true, Japanistan cares... I suggest we press Japanistan forward for a breakup with Shep.

After all, diplomacy is a game of two, not one.

P.S. What is the situation with MESS and Byzantium? Has it been resolved one way or the other? I think all three other SNC members spoke out against dual mutual defense treaty memberships.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-16 04:08am

Stas Bush wrote:Frankly, if Japanistan really doesn't care, he shouldn't be making demands for us to stop any sort of public activity.

If the opposite is true, Japanistan cares... I suggest we press Japanistan forward for a breakup with Shep. After all, diplomacy is a game of two, not one.

P.S. What is the situation with MESS and Byzantium? Has it been resolved one way or the other? I think all three other SNC members spoke out against dual mutual defense treaty memberships.

PeZook didn't say much on that, only you and Shady objected to dual mutual defense treaty memberships.

On the other hand, it has been pointed out that we might add a clause that SNC need not get involved in wars involving the MESS. However, I might add that Japanistan represents a problem not just for the MESS but us, as well.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-16 04:11am

I actually favor Byzantium's reduction in MESS affairs, to avoid potentially nasty conflicts of interest.

I also agree with Stas: if Japanistan needs concessions from us, it should concede something, too. Otherwise we'll just look like appeasers and risk losing power.

It's a good starting point for negotiation, if they care at all.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-16 04:13am

PeZook wrote:I actually favor Byzantium's reduction in MESS affairs, to avoid potentially nasty conflicts of interest.

I also agree with Stas: if Japanistan needs concessions from us, it should concede something, too. Otherwise we'll just look like appeasers and risk losing power.

It's a good starting point for negotiation, if they care at all.

In that case, I shall need to talk to the MESS to work something out.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-09-16 04:32am

The SNC's interests lie in collective security of the Old Continent against possible incursions or attacks by hostile nations.

It doesn't push it's members to support overseas operations or wars - these far-away operations are left to particular country's wisdom.

The MESS has apparently taken on an America/NATO approach (not to mention that it's not limited to a continent but instead has members almost everywhere) that it intervenes in conflicts which have nothing to do with the Old Continent collective security. And I mean the Shep war.

The SNC has little to gain from embarking on a war with Shep over Old Dominion. The MESS has crucial interests in the Impact Archipelago region and an ally in a war, but we don't.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-16 04:36am

By the way, we could have a cool storyline about the Impact Archipelago

Since we're going with an extraterrestial disease and all...hey, what happened to Marina and Coyote's evil plan to boost space exploration?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-09-16 04:45am

This disease or whatever is virtually unknown in the world, outbreaks are few, mostly in the MESS, and they are as I understood kept in secret.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-09-16 04:54am

Fuck you Czech! I CALLED MOBIUS SQUAD FIRST, YOU WHORE!

WHORE! WHORE! WHORE!

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-16 05:06am

Hahahaha I totally forgot. Too late now!

EDIT: I also just beat AC04 again. Woo!

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-09-16 05:13am

I hate you forever.

And, really, the Wyvern should be a 5.5th generation fighter. It's got the F-22's stealth features, plus everything in every modern fighter - from canards and thrust vectoring, to implausible reserve forward swept swing wings!

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-16 05:27am

4.75 gen. It's not stealth (though it is low profile in the vein of the B-1). It's more like a better Flanker. If I change the name from Mobius, will you shut up?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-09-16 05:28am

What? A reverse-wing had it's moment of fame (1970-2000), but it has no practical reason now - it totally loses to a diamond-shaped wing. All 5th Gen projects with reverse-wings lost to diamong-wings: the first projects of the ATF with reverse wings lost to F-22 and the Su-47 lost to PAK/FA which is also a diamond-wing plane. The Su-27 modification with a reverse wing for naval aviation never even took flight.

That alone should speak volumes about the practical necessity to spend huge amounts of money and special composite materials to produce reverse wings.

Especially reverse swing-wings (for those who think it's technically impossible: it is, such a project was studied by Sukhoi, an X-wing plane), which are even more susceptible to damage and maintenance troubles.

The fighter will be a quagmire to maintain and a gold machine to construct, in an environment where numbers matter more than sophistication.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-09-16 05:29am

Yeah

The Wyvern isn't stealth? It is! I mean, there's a reason why its missiles and bombs aren't mounted on external hardpoints.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-16 05:33am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I hate you forever.

And, really, the Wyvern should be a 5.5th generation fighter. It's got the F-22's stealth features, plus everything in every modern fighter - from canards and thrust vectoring, to implausible reserve forward swept swing wings!

Actually, that might be accomplishable within 5 years or so, since it merely expands on existing technology.

And didn't we agree to work on it again?

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-16 05:34am

I changed it to Galm. Are you happy now?

Naw. It's 4.75gen technology. And that's just the prototype. And I honestly do not care whether it's perfect from an engineering perspective or not. I want X-02s, and I'll bloody well have them.

Also, the production models may not have wing movement in-flight. They're intended to be operated off of carriers and land strips as-necessary, so the winglet retraction may only be retained as a carrier-deck space saving measure.

Here! Have a blueprint so you can better imagine the planes I am having regardless of anyone's bitching, moaning, or whining.

http://www.acecombat.jp/ace5/img/wp/kabe29l.jpg

EDIT: Shroom, you whiny twit, you've ruined it. Now I'll have to deal with constant bratty whining from people with the aircraft equivalent of penis-envy, even when they own wings upon wings of F-22 Raptors or the Russian equivalent, which are inferior dogfighters but superior stealth aircraft.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-09-16 05:39am

Czech, I've used that schematic in Game 1.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Actually, that might be accomplishable within 5 years or so, since it merely expands on existing technology.

And didn't we agree to work on it again?

I don't know... isn't Byzantium spending enough on military projects? A super-expensive super fighter might not be what we want if we're looking for systems to counter Shepistani bomber swarms, and the inevitable cruise and ballistic missile barrages.

Then there's the matter of your ground forces. A massive ground force might be needed, if things in the Middle East get too hot.

@ Czech:

You can KEEP your insanely expensive planes! I'll invest in sticking tactical lasers and nuclear explosion missiles on my own superfighters!

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-09-16 05:40am

The plane is a pop toy

Look, it weighs 16 tons something, is 21m. in length, with a 1000 km range. It's weak armament and a lack of external mounts is deplorable rathern than useful.

And let's remember that the most effective weapon against a superfighter is to trace it's airfield and then bomb it to bits while the fighter stays grounded.

I'd also raise questions about it's weight. Even the Su-47, with it's rather small armament, weighs around 25 tons, and it's range is 3000 km.

In short, you get a weakly armed, short-range fighter. It's usefulness? Perhaps as a carrier-based craft - yeah.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-09-16 05:43am

Stas reads the fine print.

Whatever. Czech can have his fighter, and improve the specs - even if the thing is bloody expensive. It's totally okay. Come on, Stas, you had a sentient supercomputer last game.

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-16 05:48am

I re-estimated its' weight to about 24 tons; it carries four Sidewinders and four AMRAAMs internally with space for six hardpoints external, plus a 20mm gun; and its' range will be revised upward to around that of the Su-47.

Who said I'm using the exact ingame stats? No fighter that size weighs sixteen tons. I actually estimated its' weight based on the F-23, which uses the same basic engine, albeit without 3D vectoring.

Additionally, I've now decided that the wings must be positioned before takeoff. For strike or dogfighting missions, they would be open; for parking on carrier decks or for high-speed intercept missions, they would be closed.

The ruddervators will remain 'up' at all times, like the F-23 ruddervators they are derived from.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-09-16 05:49am

Note I never said he can't have it

I said it'd be a pain in the ass to have one

After all, I have the T-4s, which are also a pain in the ass to maintain, and plan to build a hypersonic SSTO spaceship like the one I planned last game.

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-16 05:57am

Yeah. I've had the wing-glove issues brought up repeatedly. This is why I've decided they have variable-sweep wings, but they have to be locked in position before takeoff. It'll make them less of a pain.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-16 06:18am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I don't know... isn't Byzantium spending enough on military projects? A super-expensive super fighter might not be what we want if we're looking for systems to counter Shepistani bomber swarms, and the inevitable cruise and ballistic missile barrages.

Well, a lot of my projects are collaborations within the SNC, which saves money. Excepting some projects, most of them are in the order of a couple million dollars. Not many of them can move any faster regardless how much I can dump in. Case in point would be solid state lasers. Money is plenty, but engineering issues take a while to resolve.

AS for interceptors, I'll just acquire MIG-31s in the interim, while churning F-22s.

To be honest, I don't really need that fighter, except perhaps commissioning a study, which doesn't cost much.

Then there's the matter of your ground forces. A massive ground force might be needed, if things in the Middle East get too hot.

There is no way in hell am I going to ever match Skimmer's army, air force, or navy. No matter what I do.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-09-16 06:41am

There is no way in hell am I going to ever match Skimmer's army

Well, I'm thinking about expanding my military, airforce and navy at an extended pace.

I don't know why the hell I decided that the point system was a rule, that was a very huge mistake of mine.

Skimmer's army and Navy would cost around thrice or more the number of points "allowed" for imperiums.

If other people used the point system, that would likewise make their militaries underwhelming respective of what is possible with 5 trillions and a military budget say around 50% of the United States.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-16 06:50am

Stas Bush wrote:Well, I'm thinking about expanding my military, airforce and navy at an extended pace.

I don't know why the hell I decided that the point system was a rule, that was a very huge mistake of mine.

Skimmer's army and Navy would cost around thrice or more the number of points "allowed" for imperiums.

If other people used the point system, that would likewise make their militaries underwhelming respective of what is possible with 5 trillions and a military budget say around 50% of the United States.

The only aspect of my initial OOB which is probably larger than what Tsardoms might have had, was my army. My navy was kept around 500 points, and my air force as well (Su-39s I considered Army aviation).

Of course, when I looked at Skimmer's OOB and seeing that he was placed right below me, I figured that I had better get a decently equiped army to make sure that if he invades, I can at least resist him to an extent.

And yes, Skimmer's navy, air force, and army is way many times more than mine. He has damn hell lots of divisions, with lots of guns that can swarm my land and no amount of technological superiority can stop that many troops beyond slowing them down.

And then Skimmer is grabbing a mega tank.

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2008-09-16 06:51am

Stas Bush wrote:
There is no way in hell am I going to ever match Skimmer's army
Well, I'm thinking about expanding my military, airforce and navy at an extended pace.

I don't know why the hell I decided that the point system was a rule, that was a very huge mistake of mine.

Skimmer's army and Navy would cost around thrice or more the number of points "allowed" for imperiums.

If other people used the point system, that would likewise make their militaries underwhelming respective of what is possible with 5 trillions and a military budget say around 50% of the United States.

I went with the points system too, not because I didn't know the rule but because of a lack of knowledge on what I could really have. I'm trying to make up for it now but it's hard, still there is always the next game.