Does McCain already have the Election won?

[Dominus Atheos]

Is Dominus Atheos trolling? I find it hard to believe that someone who vehemently opposes McCain's policies could possibly want to help him get into power. His bizarre plan to give McCain four years to fuck up the country in the hopes of "killing conservatism" (as if that's any more likely than defeating terror) strikes me as either profound lunacy or a fucking troll.

No, I really believe everything I just said. As for the "profound lunacy" accusation, I already responded to that.

[Davis 51]

What counts is the final tally in November, and I am still very much hopeful that people will see through the BS. I just never thought it would stay this close for so long. And it doesn't help that there are honestly people that think like DA out there. Someone forgot to bring their logic and morality to the board.

What's the problem? Obama clearly doesn't want to win, or if he does it's a distant second, so why should I vote for him?

Translation: He's not enough of a dick for me. Only a dick should win the Presidential Election. See, there are dicks, pussies, and assholes....[/Team America Bullshit].

Somehow, you've translated the fact that he's not using bullshit tactics to "he doesn't wanna win." You fail to realize that if Obama takes the high road and wins, it will show that dirty campaigning isn't effective anymore. Couple that with an injection of liberal policies that work, and that is far more likely to get people to ditch the GOP than your fucked up idea.

Alyrium is right. If nothing else, you should vote for Obama because if McCain wins, there will be almost nothing left to salvage.

[Alyrium Denryle]

What's the problem? Obama clearly doesn't want to win, or if he does it's a distant second, so why should I vote for him?

Excuse me, but how do you derive that conclusion? Because his campaign is not being waged at the level of your personal satisfaction?

I've gone over the problems I have with his campaigning several times. Go read the thread.

And how does that justify either voting for the Gimp or not casting a vote at all?

IMO, in the long run a McCain presidency will be better for the country then an Obama presidency. The democrats have learned a lot of lessons from Kerry's clusterfuck of a campaign in 2004, but not the right ones. Here's my prediction of what would happen after a McCain victory:

• I think if someone who a lot of liberals (myself included up until just recently) look to as their savior loses, especially narrowly, then they will finally learn what sort of tactics it takes to win an election, and nominate someone in 2012 who is willing to do them.
• I think if someone who is willing to go after McCain on the issues I've listed previously in the thread, they would probably win by 10% or more.
• I think that if after Kerry's and Obama's loss, someone is elected by that kind of margin the Democratic party will finally get it through their thick skulls that the key to beating the republicans isn't to compromise with them (that is, roll over on every issue), but to attack them.
• I think that if democrats start attacking republicans on all their reprehensible, heinous and flagrant shit that they pull, it isn't going to fly nearly as well as it has been.
• I think that if their reprehensible, heinous and flagrant shit doesn't fly anymore, then we stand a real chance of fixing this country, and this planet.
• I don't think any of the stuff I just said is going to happen if Obama wins.

Obviously there's no guarantee any of that will definitely happen if Obama loses, but I think that there is enough of a chance that it is worth it to support McCain in 2008.

And for that, you want to fuck everyone for 30 years or so?

[Dominus Atheos]

And for that, you want to fuck everyone for 30 years or so?

I think it would only be 8 or twelve, but yes. I don't think the country stands a chance of being fixed unless the democrats grow some stones, and I don't see that happening if Obama wins. Regardless of the changes Obama brings to the presidency (and I think the republicans are going to fight him every step of the way, especially since it doesn't look like the Dems are going to get a fillibuster-proof majority after the idiotic leadership refused to bring S-CHIP up for a vote), I don't think it's going to bring any change to our political process. I think "Deregulation increasing company profits and strengthening our economy", "Tax cuts for the rich trickling down to the middle class" and etc. arguments will have the same effects they have now, and nothing will change.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Is Dominus Atheos trolling? I find it hard to believe that someone who vehemently opposes McCain's policies could possibly want to help him get into power. His bizarre plan to give McCain four years to fuck up the country in the hopes of "killing conservatism" (as if that's any more likely than defeating terror) strikes me as either profound lunacy or a fucking troll.

No, I really believe everything I just said. As for the "profound lunacy" accusation, I already responded to that.

No you miserable ooze-dripping cunt, it is profound lunacy. If McCain wins, unemployment rises, healthcare will go down the tubes and our public infrastructure will crumble. The republican strategy of proving government does not work by running it into the ground will succeed, and so will their tactic of getting people to vote against their economic interests by distracting them with their own bigotry. To say nothing of the fact that the generalized societal instability created by his domestic policies will create more religious fundamentalists.

His supreme court nominees will turn the clock back on civil rights, criminal law, segregation, and throw out the bill of rights. The rule of law in this country will be a laughable joke. And we will probably be involved in another imperialist war.

And that is if he lives through his term. I dont even want to think of the near third world shit-hole this country will become with a Palin presidency.

Your strategy runs the risk of there not being much worth salvaging, it is a political scorched earth policy and if I could reach through my monitor and throttle you, I would.

[Dominus Atheos]

Is Dominus Atheos trolling? I find it hard to believe that someone who vehemently opposes McCain's policies could possibly want to help him get into power. His bizarre plan to give McCain four years to fuck up the country in the hopes of "killing conservatism" (as if that's any more likely than defeating terror) strikes me as either profound lunacy or a fucking troll.

No, I really believe everything I just said. As for the "profound lunacy" accusation, I already responded to that.

No you miserable ooze-dripping cunt, it is profound lunacy.

Go read the thread again.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And for that, you want to fuck everyone for 30 years or so?

I think it would only be 8 or twelve, but yes. I don't think the country stands a chance of being fixed unless the democrats grow some stones, and I don't see that happening if Obama wins. Regardless of the changes Obama brings to the presidency (and I think the republicans are going to fight him every step of the way, especially since it doesn't look like the Dems are going to get a fillibuster-proof majority after the idiotic leadership refused to bring S-CHIP up for a vote), I don't think it's going to bring any change to our political process. I think "Deregulation increasing company profits and strengthening our economy", "Tax cuts for the rich trickling down to the middle class" and etc. arguments will have the same effects they have now, and nothing will change.

Not with the supreme court, and federal court appointments, and the infrastructural collapse. It takes a LOT of money, time, and energy to rebuild a ghetto once you create one.

If obama wins, the worst that can happen is the status quo will be maintained. If McCain wins, it is the outlier best case scenario that that will also be the case.

You sad little fucktard

[Alyrium Denryle]

No, I really believe everything I just said. As for the "profound lunacy" accusation, I already responded to that.

No you miserable ooze-dripping cunt, it is profound lunacy.

Go read the thread again.

Care to address the actual point, or will you simply sit there and crow like a crazy person?

[Patrick Degan]

And how does that justify either voting for the Gimp or not casting a vote at all?

IMO, in the long run a McCain presidency will be better for the country then an Obama presidency. The democrats have learned a lot of lessons from Kerry's clusterfuck of a campaign in 2004, but not the right ones. Here's my prediction of what would happen after a McCain victory:

• I think if someone who a lot of liberals (myself included up until just recently) look to as their savior loses, especially narrowly, then they will finally learn what sort of tactics it takes to win an election, and nominate someone in 2012 who is willing to do them.
• I think if someone who is willing to go after McCain on the issues I've listed previously in the thread, they would probably win by 10% or more.
• I think that if after Kerry's and Obama's loss, someone is elected by that kind of margin the Democratic party will finally get it through their thick skulls that the key to beating the republicans isn't to compromise with them (that is, roll over on every issue), but to attack them.
• I think that if democrats start attacking republicans on all their reprehensible, heinous and flagrant shit that they pull, it isn't going to fly nearly as well as it has been.
• I think that if their reprehensible, heinous and flagrant shit doesn't fly anymore, then we stand a real chance of fixing this country, and this planet.
• I don't think any of the stuff I just said is going to happen if Obama wins.

Obviously there's no guarantee any of that will definitely happen if Obama loses, but I think that there is enough of a chance that it is worth it to support McCain in 2008.

Frankly, you are out of your tiny mind. Playing the politics of the ideal and ignoring the very real consequences of a Gimp/Barbie maladministration on top of a Chimp maladministration.

Shall I sum up your entire position for you: Obama isn't mean enough on the Gimp, therefore he really doesn't want to win, therefore he has no chance to win, and since he's just Republican-lite like Gore and Kerry were, and we need "real" Democrats to step up and reverse the course the country's headed toward, and Americans don't really care, let's have the Gimp/Barbie ticket elected so the country gets so fucked up that Americans will rise en-masse and vote "real" Democrats back into power and we can have the New Deal back the next day.

Essentially, the same sort of broken logic Ralph Nader used in 2000 by which he did his own small bit to help usher in the Texification of American national politics, a lie-based war, a drowned city and the economic and financial trainwreck we're now in. Only a moron argues that four more years of this sort of misrule and mismanagement is somehow a good thing if it serves some alleged "higher purpose" in the long run.

Fuck your "higher purpose". This country is in trouble NOW. Are you capable of processing that fact? That means it's most immediate problems need fixing NOW. Not four or eight years from now. The only imperative is the defeat of the Gimp/Barbie ticket. Anything else is manifest irresponsibility.

[Thanas]

There is something wrong with your thought process if you think that running the country into the ground will actually fix anything. It is like driving a car against a brick wall three times because only then would a real car repair make a significant overhaul. Nevermind that the car will then be too broken to fix.

But hey, let's keep driving instead of acually doing something to fix it, right?

[Guardsman Bass]

Furthermore, I have doubts whether it would actually happen (a "Democratic Rise") unless you literally drove the country right into a shithole dwarfing the Great Depression. Republicans held control of Congress for 12 years with these kinds of tactics, and even before that Bush Sr.'s campaign used them against Dukakis - yet Democrats didn't "learn".

Plus, DA, as some people have mentioned, a lot of another Republican Administration like George W. Bush's policies would have very long-lasting effects. The most prominent, of course, is if McCain wins and appoints another conservative justice to the Court. If that happens, you can pretty much kiss Roe v. Wade goodbye, and that would only be the first. And those justices would probably be there for a while; aside from Antonio Scalia, the other three "conservative" justices are fairly young, in their forties and fifties. They could easily sit on the Court for another 20-30 years if they want to.

[Dominus Atheos]

And how does that justify either voting for the Gimp or not casting a vote at all?

IMO, in the long run a McCain presidency will be better for the country then an Obama presidency. The democrats have learned a lot of lessons from Kerry's clusterfuck of a campaign in 2004, but not the right ones. Here's my prediction of what would happen after a McCain victory:

• I think if someone who a lot of liberals (myself included up until just recently) look to as their savior loses, especially narrowly, then they will finally learn what sort of tactics it takes to win an election, and nominate someone in 2012 who is willing to do them.
• I think if someone who is willing to go after McCain on the issues I've listed previously in the thread, they would probably win by 10% or more.
• I think that if after Kerry's and Obama's loss, someone is elected by that kind of margin the Democratic party will finally get it through their thick skulls that the key to beating the republicans isn't to compromise with them (that is, roll over on every issue), but to attack them.
• I think that if democrats start attacking republicans on all their reprehensible, heinous and flagrant shit that they pull, it isn't going to fly nearly as well as it has been.
• I think that if their reprehensible, heinous and flagrant shit doesn't fly anymore, then we stand a real chance of fixing this country, and this planet.
• I don't think any of the stuff I just said is going to happen if Obama wins.

Obviously there's no guarantee any of that will definitely happen if Obama loses, but I think that there is enough of a chance that it is worth it to support McCain in 2008.

Frankly, you are out of your tiny mind. Playing the politics of the ideal and ignoring the very real consequences of a Gimp/Barbie maladministration on top of a Chimp maladministration.

Shall I sum up your entire position for you: Obama isn't mean enough on the Gimp, therefore he really doesn't want to win, therefore he has no chance to win, and since he's just Republican-lite like Gore and Kerry were, and we need "real" Democrats to step up and reverse the course the country's headed toward, and Americans don't really care, let's have the Gimp/Barbie ticket elected so the country gets so fucked up that Americans will rise en-masse and vote "real" Democrats back into power and we can have the New Deal back the next day.

Essentially, the same sort of broken logic Ralph Nader used in 2000 by which he did his own small bit to help usher in the Texification of American national politics, a lie-based war, a drowned city and the economic and financial trainwreck we're now in. Only a moron argues that four more years of this sort of misrule and mismanagement is somehow a good thing if it serves some alleged "higher purpose" in the long run.

Fuck your "higher purpose". This country is in trouble NOW. Are you capable of processing that fact? That means it's most immediate problems need fixing NOW. Not four or eight years from now. The only imperative is the defeat of the Gimp/Barbie ticket. Anything else is manifest irresponsibility.

How the hell do you figure? It might be possible to fix the country right now, but what's stopping it from braking again the next time an arch-conservative gets into office? Any fixes we apply would only last that long. If Obama loses and the Democrats grow a backbone, we may never have to worry about an arch-conservative getting into office again.

[Keevan_Colton]

Does the phrase "Kill or cure" mean anything to you?

Or perhaps the wonderful one about "curing the disease by killing the patient."

[Dominus Atheos]

Furthermore, I have doubts whether it would actually happen (a "Democratic Rise") unless you literally drove the country right into a shithole dwarfing the Great Depression. Republicans held control of Congress for 12 years with these kinds of tactics, and even before that Bush Sr.'s campaign used them against Dukakis - yet Democrats didn't "learn".

Like I said, I'm remembering the lessons the Democrats have learned after the 2004 campaign. Obama is fighting a much more effective campaign then Kerry did, but it's still not enough. If Obama manages a victory, and that's looking like much less of a certainty then it has any right to be after the past 8 years, it would only be a squeak. I'm counting on the Dems to pull away even more lessons, and finally learn what it takes to win an election.

Plus, DA, as some people have mentioned, a lot of another Republican Administration like George W. Bush's policies would have very long-lasting effects. The most prominent, of course, is if McCain wins and appoints another conservative justice to the Court. If that happens, you can pretty much kiss Roe v. Wade goodbye, and that would only be the first. And those justices would probably be there for a while; aside from Antonio Scalia, the other three "conservative" justices are fairly young, in their forties and fifties. They could easily sit on the Court for another 20-30 years if they want to.

I'm well aware it is going to be a hard 4 years, and after that it could be very hard to fix the country, but what's to stop the next republican president from doing the same thing? If the Democrats think that Obama's tactics are the key to winning an election and keep employing them, eventually another arch-conservative republican will be elected, and will do all those things you just listed.

[Keevan_Colton]

You're looking for the way to "win" forever, to get the perfect outcome.

Life doesn't work that way. You have to do the best with what is available now and keep trying to improve things as you go. Waiting for the perfect solution means never accomplishing anything.

I suggest you consider reading Nightwatch, by Sergi Lukenyenko. Not the film though, actually read.






Grey jack, the world is grey...

[Dominus Atheos]

And for that, you want to fuck everyone for 30 years or so?

I think it would only be 8 or twelve, but yes. I don't think the country stands a chance of being fixed unless the democrats grow some stones, and I don't see that happening if Obama wins. Regardless of the changes Obama brings to the presidency (and I think the republicans are going to fight him every step of the way, especially since it doesn't look like the Dems are going to get a fillibuster-proof majority after the idiotic leadership refused to bring S-CHIP up for a vote), I don't think it's going to bring any change to our political process. I think "Deregulation increasing company profits and strengthening our economy", "Tax cuts for the rich trickling down to the middle class" and etc. arguments will have the same effects they have now, and nothing will change.

Not with the supreme court, and federal court appointments, and the infrastructural collapse. It takes a LOT of money, time, and energy to rebuild a ghetto once you create one.

Like I said, I'm aware it would fuck everyone over for a good 8 or twelve years, but after that we may have a real shot at throwing out arch-conservative politics forever.

If obama wins, the worst that can happen is the status quo will be maintained. If McCain wins, it is the outlier best case scenario that that will also be the case.

That may be the immediate effects, but I'm looking at the big picture. In the long run, the total amount of suffering would be less.

[Stark]

Like I said, I'm aware it would fuck everyone over for a good 8 or twelve years, but after that we may have a real shot at throwing out arch-conservative politics forever.

Explain how, beyond simpleminded 'people won't like it rar'. I mean, you're honestly talking about defeating an abstract concept?

[Imperial Overlord]

Gore barely lost to Bush in 2000, Kerry came close in 2004, the Democrats took control of the Congress in 2006 and now have a good shot at taking the Presidency and expanding their hold on Congress and you're bitching because they aren't fighting elections the way you want them too? You're going to surrender control of the government now, when there is urgent work to be done, because of some hypothetical arch-conservative might get elected and do some damage in the future, after some or all of the current damage has gotten repaired? You're that sure you have some magical insight into the One True Way For Democrats to Win American Elections and that it will be adopted as the True Faith that you're willing to fuck over the entire nation over the long term to reach the masses?

Go set up a fucking church. The rest of us live in reality. Roe vs. Wade will probably stand, because if the Republicans actually take it down then they'll motivate people to vote against them en masse like nothing they've done before, but they will continue to fuck up an already badly damaged country and political process.

[Stark]

The best part for me is the whole 'total amount of suffering will be less' thing. I won't bother commenting on the terrible rationale behind this (since he'll just deflect it and make us all wonder why he's spending so much time telling us all about shit he knows is stupid and illogical), but he doesn't seem to consider that success isn't certain, or indeed even likely. He's going to CREATE a bad situation because it MIGHT make it better afterward - this is probably in the 'conservatism is defeated forever' phase of his delusions. If that doesn't happen - as seems pretty damn likely - well, I guess his attempt to control the universe just significantly increased the level of suck, but made him feel powerful and in control at the time.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Is Dominus Atheos trolling? I find it hard to believe that someone who vehemently opposes McCain's policies could possibly want to help him get into power. His bizarre plan to give McCain four years to fuck up the country in the hopes of "killing conservatism" (as if that's any more likely than defeating terror) strikes me as either profound lunacy or a fucking troll.

I admit i suggested something similar to my mom once...of course i was literally high at the time, so i have an excuse. Tha plan works, in theory, if one assumes that the country can withstand such a period of "shriving". Of course one look at the fucking economy will dash all hopes of that...

I understand what DA is saying. I don't agree with it, and i think it's a stupid idea, but i understand the frustration. I know it's frustrating to look at Obama do that thing where he giggles, giggles, at some blatant lie from McCain and then responds with "Oh, c'mon now people!" as if that's a rebuttle, and i know how you facepalm and say "Christ help us, this man is a twit"...i understand how it feels to see the Democrats produce such utterly impotent fighters. But i vote for them anyway, you know why? Because you have to, if you want this country to fucking survive another eight years.

Alyrium pretty much summed up the hypothetical McCain regime...and what's scary is, that's the best case scenario, assuming he survives four or even eight ful years (at 73 currently) because i cant even imgine what President Sarah Palin would do to us. The best

And for the record, yes, you pollyannas Politics is a fucking bloodsport. This isn't some fucking game, ok. Maybe it's because i'm not what you'd call "middle class" here but let me give you my opinion: i work at fucking Wal-Mart, i workl hard, the economy is screwing me, my mom and my girlfriend-possibly-wife over beyond all reason. Gasoline is like liquid gold, rice...FUCKING RICE...costs like ten dollars here. The economy is about to literally collapse, and to top it all off, we have TWO fucking wars raging at this moment, wars which even by the most hopelessly optimistic view ill not end within this decade. Oh and we're pretty much about to go to war with Pakistan too, from what i hear.

You can't hear the urgency in my voice over a computer but it's dire over here. Down in the trenches, people like me, "blue collar" folks, are taking it up the ass so hard i wouldn't be surprised if someone i were in a gay porn movie. This is not a fucking debate where everyone shakes hands at the end, this is dire, dire shit that will decide the fate of the country for the next four to eight years...and you're saying that i'm "too partisan" because i'm literally terrified at the thought of McCain and Palin taking the wheel? Are you drunk? Have i fallen into the Twilight Zone?

Of course i'm "too partisan", you fucking moron, i can barely afford simple foodstuffs. Don't fucking tell me about "partisan politics=bad RAR1!1" because i just dropped eight bucks for fucking cooking oil yesterday. OIL...not from the GROUND from FUCKING PLANTS!

[CaptJodan]

I understand what DA is saying. I don't agree with it, and i think it's a stupid idea, but i understand the frustration. I know it's frustrating to look at Obama do that thing where he giggles, giggles, at some blatant lie from McCain and then responds with "Oh, c'mon now people!" as if that's a rebuttle, and i know how you facepalm and say "Christ help us, this man is a twit"...i understand how it feels to see the Democrats produce such utterly impotent fighters.

To be fair, some of his responses that don't go on the direct offensive and call him an out-and-out liar bug the shit out of me too. McCain's shot himself in the foot countless times by now, and Obama only moves against a fraction of those to point out the obvious.

On the other hand, I respect what Obama is doing. No, I don't think it will change politics in America if he wins. It will always be about distortion, lies, and "dirty politics", if for no other reason that, especially right now, that's all the GOP has to run on. And maybe it isn't the best political strategy, and at times it pisses me the fuck off. I don't want Obama running adds of deception and lies, but I would sure like it if he called a spade a spade once and a while.

But none of that makes me want to vote McCain. This idiot logic literally hinges on three hypothetical scenarios. One, that the Dems will actually field someone who plays the kinds of politics DA wants, by no measure a guaranteed event. Two, that the American public will radically change to oust the Republicans after yet another horrible 4 to 8 years of rule, again by no means assured. Three, the desire for change has to be so great as to bring about this "new era" that DA talks about, and the defeat of this type of GOP stance once and for all. These three conditions HAVE to be met in order for you to be happy with the next candidate. After this administration, its hard to see any position where the general public are capable of making rational decisions in their own best interests if there are so many people still voting McCain. DA demonstrates this irrationality well.

I wouldn't be surprised if 4 more years of terrible politics, a sinking economy, and a never-ending war won't turn people more towards religion, thus strengthening the GOP base, because while shit continues to rain down on the poor and middle class from the top down that they have no direct control over, they'll turn to other methods of coping.

In the meantime, DA just expects us to suffer through it. He seems convinced that the US is going to recover from political, economic and social devastation. He thinks we'll actually HAVE allies who don't find us more of a burden than a benefit. Keeping RvW safe, moving forward with gay rights or civil rights or women's rights...all of that should wait. We should be expected to actually move back further socially. It sounds like in DA's view, the only way to make progress for these issues is to turn the US into a second or third world fundie shithole, then we expect everyone will turn around and follow "the right way" afterward. The poor should take solace in these possible hypotheticals when their houses are taken or they lose their lives because they can't pay medical bills.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Dominus Atheos, internet attention whore: there's a more well-precedented way of casting a protest vote - go Third Party or stay home. Don't actually vote for McCain. That vote will not tally a mark for aggressive liberalism, but that McCain conservative business-as-usual.

Mike, can we get rid of this turd? This is a waste of fucking time for serious discussion.

[Dark Hellion]

I find it comically naive of DA that he thinks you can defeat a specific side of the political ideology, as if Arch-Conservatism is some new thing and not an extension of the first man who looked back and said "Man, things were better in my parents day. There where less sabertooth cats, more nuts to gather and we didn't have to engage in this stupid agriculture business."

It's like suggesting you destroy utilitarian thought by promoting some kind of incredible deontological thought. Ideology doesn't work that way as any person who is thinking rationally will know. Ideology isn't perfectly rational in normal people, and someone will always believe things that psychologically comfort them, screw the consequences.

We are still pretty dumb animals DA, and 4 more years of bad is just going to make us stupider and weaker.

[General Zod]

I find it comically naive of DA that he thinks you can defeat a specific side of the political ideology, as if Arch-Conservatism is some new thing and not an extension of the first man who looked back and said "Man, things were better in my parents day. There where less sabertooth cats, more nuts to gather and we didn't have to engage in this stupid agriculture business."

It's like suggesting you destroy utilitarian thought by promoting some kind of incredible deontological thought. Ideology doesn't work that way as any person who is thinking rationally will know. Ideology isn't perfectly rational in normal people, and someone will always believe things that psychologically comfort them, screw the consequences.

We are still pretty dumb animals DA, and 4 more years of bad is just going to make us stupider and weaker.

The hilarious thing is waging wars on abstract concepts and thinking they can be stamped out completely is something we lambast the Republicans for, yet DA thinks it's a sound strategy. (Y hallo thar war on terror!)

[Guardsman Bass]

I'm well aware it is going to be a hard 4 years, and after that it could be very hard to fix the country, but what's to stop the next republican president from doing the same thing? If the Democrats think that Obama's tactics are the key to winning an election and keep employing them, eventually another arch-conservative republican will be elected, and will do all those things you just listed.

Do you seriously not get it? All of the four conservative judges on the Court except for Scalia are relatively young (in their fifties and forties), and since McCain would probably pick another young conservative judge, you could end up with a conservative court for the next three decades. That's irrespective of whatever happens of the elections, not matter how much McCain fucks up if he wins in November. And during that time, the damage could be nearly irreversible.