Goodbye, AIG

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Broomstick
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Post by Broomstick »

PeZook wrote:
Broomstick wrote: That's the reasons, right there. Even CEO's who are held legally liable for mismanagement may still be able to keep their "golden parachutes".
I admit I don't know much about your legal system - is it because there are no proper laws in place, or that they just don't work on powerful people most of the time?
It's because the "golden parachutes" are usually defined in employment contracts. It might say "Executive XYZ gets $10 million and a pension and this other stuff if he voluntarily leaves the company, and $2 million and a pension and this other stuff if he leaves for any other reason." If "other reason" is because he got caught embezzling funds and went to jail for 2 years the company STILL has to pay out $2 million and stuff because he left and the agreement has no mention of NOT paying because of illegal actions.

Of course, not all are that sweeping - there ARE executive employment contracts that get the company off the hook if the executive is booted for illegal activities.

This also accounts for a lot of "forced resignations" - when a person is told that they either resign or will be fired. As a general rule, under those circumstances resigning gets you a better deal (you're leaving "voluntarily"). So, when a company goes down the shitter the executive who's about to go down resigns and gets full value of the corporate parachute.
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Post by Surlethe »

J wrote:
Ender wrote:Christ. How much longer before government bonds drop out from the strain of this?
That's a good question, in a rational world the bonds market would blow up right after Freddie & Fannie were bailed out. It didn't happen. Conditions worsened and it was a little dicey for a day, but to quote Marvin the Martian, "where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth shattering kaboom"
Isn't it the sort of thing that as long as people pretend everything's okay, the bonds stay all right? After all, if I understand correctly, they're supposed to be the safe haven for any investor; if the bond market goes, we're all royally fucked. So collective denial will keep the bonds safe ... for now.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Well, the trouble is that bonds are loans, with supposedly good returns. If they can't be guaranteed, yeah, lots of people are fucked, including countries.
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Post by Ace Pace »

Surlethe wrote:
Isn't it the sort of thing that as long as people pretend everything's okay, the bonds stay all right? After all, if I understand correctly, they're supposed to be the safe haven for any investor; if the bond market goes, we're all royally fucked. So collective denial will keep the bonds safe ... for now.
Thats precisely it. As long as other countries, or buyers of bonds (whoever they may be), believe the U.S. (or whoever the issuer is) is capable of paying out the bond in due time, the price will stay up.

Do I have that right?
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Post by aerius »

Gold up ~$80, Silver about to go lock limit up. Yield on short term Treasuries is around 0.03%. No, that's not a typo, 0.03%. Massive flight to safety underway as the bonds & foreign exchange markets have "gotten it".
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Post by PeZook »

Ace Pace wrote: Thats precisely it. As long as other countries, or buyers of bonds (whoever they may be), believe the U.S. (or whoever the issuer is) is capable of paying out the bond in due time, the price will stay up.

Do I have that right?
Yes, exactly. And to be frank, the US will be able to pay out for a long time - the current budget deficit is abysmal, but it's very far away from a total crash. Government bonds are usually destroyed either by complete economic collapse (Zimbabwe, for example, won't be selling any :D ) or war.

Government collapse works, too.
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Post by Dartzap »

Channel 4 News are reporting Morgan Stanley are in the doodoo, and that the US treasury is running out of rescue funds after bailing AIG, and are attempting to scrounge up $40B from somewhere. Ooooh bugger.
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Post by aerius »

Holy shit! I just saw a negative yield on the 3 month Treasury for a few seconds! :shock:
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Post by PeZook »

So...if Morgan-Stanley falls, what major banks will be left on the US market?
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Post by Chardok »

PeZook wrote:So...if Morgan-Stanley falls, what major banks will be left on the US market?
Loads of commercial banks. Investment banks OTOH - pretty much Goldman and that's it.
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Post by Broomstick »

The TV news just said the DOW dropped 455 today, 800 for the week (and it's only Wednesday).

What's the difference between a skydiver and Wall Street?

A skydiver has a parachute. :P
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Post by Darth Wong »

Broomstick wrote:The TV news just said the DOW dropped 455 today, 800 for the week (and it's only Wednesday).

What's the difference between a skydiver and Wall Street?

A skydiver has a parachute. :P
So does Wall Street. Why do you think the government bailed out Freddie Mac and Fannie May? It's because the investors who bought their debt didn't want to lose their money, and they're powerful enough to influence US government policy.

Fun fact: many of them are overseas, which means that people in China may have more effect on US government economic policy than its own citizens do :wink:
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Post by Broomstick »

Darth Wong wrote:
Broomstick wrote:The TV news just said the DOW dropped 455 today, 800 for the week (and it's only Wednesday).

What's the difference between a skydiver and Wall Street?

A skydiver has a parachute. :P
So does Wall Street. Why do you think the government bailed out Freddie Mac and Fannie May? It's because the investors who bought their debt didn't want to lose their money, and they're powerful enough to influence US government policy.
Tell that to Lehman Brothers.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Broomstick wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Broomstick wrote:The TV news just said the DOW dropped 455 today, 800 for the week (and it's only Wednesday).

What's the difference between a skydiver and Wall Street?

A skydiver has a parachute. :P
So does Wall Street. Why do you think the government bailed out Freddie Mac and Fannie May? It's because the investors who bought their debt didn't want to lose their money, and they're powerful enough to influence US government policy.
Tell that to Lehman Brothers.
Their investors weren't powerful enough to get them a parachute.
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Post by Ace Pace »

Darth Wong wrote: Their investors weren't powerful enough to get them a parachute.
From what I understand, it's more that Lehman did not have a direct affect on the "real" economy and the fed has decided the line in the sand is when it can directly and immediately cause harm to the "real" market and then cause a greater panic.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

PeZook wrote:
Broomstick wrote:I know you were being sarcastic, but personally I'd like to see those executives living in a cardboard box on Lower Wacker Drive, using duct tape to hold their rotting shoes together and having to fight rats for what's in McDonald's dumpster in order to eat dinner.
I find the concept of the golden parachute...interesting.

From what I know, this phenomenon is purely a market issue: it happens because owners agree to write them into CEO's contracts. But, seriously...how come anybody agrees to that? There's no "CEO union" which could force people to include those clauses in contracts...

It's especially glaring in case of banks, of course, which aren't just companies: they're vital parts of the economic system (they suck, but they're the best we'll have for a long time...), which have potential to ruin entire national economies if used maliciously. Why CEOs in the US aren't held liable for (sometimes purposefully) mismanaging them, I have no idea. It can be done (many European countries have the right regulations, even if they are ineffective in many cases), so why not?
Part of it is also to do with the incestuous nature of a lot of things at that level. CEO's of one company can be on the board of another and so on....so you all agree to the golden parachutes so that yours goes through too.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Darth Wong wrote: So does Wall Street. Why do you think the government bailed out Freddie Mac and Fannie May? It's because the investors who bought their debt didn't want to lose their money, and they're powerful enough to influence US government policy.

Fun fact: many of them are overseas, which means that people in China may have more effect on US government economic policy than its own citizens do :wink:
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It's time to take drastic action. Contagion limitation hasn't worked, so if you can't cure the disease, you eliminate it.

If the Chinese are serious - and I don't see why they wouldn't be - then they will be, right now, drawing up a plan to get rid of the dollar. Over the last few years they've been buying all sorts of resources in Africa and making deals around the globe with commodities. Not worthless paper T-bills, but things people need that are tangible and never going to expire like a fiat currency. The Arabs have been doing something similar by buying US assets, rather than dollars. Why hold paper when you can own a piece of the Land of the Free?

They don't want to be left holding the bag, especially when the US is screwing the pooch here by selling off toilet paper in exchange for actual, useful goods and services.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

If the treasury can't bail out Morgan Stanley and they fall, too...


Well, here's an interesting question for everyone. We've spent 900 billion dollars trying to fix the economy so far and have apparently basically run out of money. What do we do now when Ford and GMC and Chrysler all are on the verge of going bankrupt and there's no money to bail them out with? That will be very nasty indeed.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:If the treasury can't bail out Morgan Stanley and they fall, too...


Well, here's an interesting question for everyone. We've spent 900 billion dollars trying to fix the economy so far and have apparently basically run out of money. What do we do now when Ford and GMC and Chrysler all are on the verge of going bankrupt and there's no money to bail them out with? That will be very nasty indeed.
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Post by PeZook »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:If the treasury can't bail out Morgan Stanley and they fall, too...


Well, here's an interesting question for everyone. We've spent 900 billion dollars trying to fix the economy so far and have apparently basically run out of money. What do we do now when Ford and GMC and Chrysler all are on the verge of going bankrupt and there's no money to bail them out with? That will be very nasty indeed.
Well, the proper way to handle it would be to put both companies in liquidation, have them split up and reorganized before privatizing 'em again (or not).

It's kind of what the fed is doing right now with AIG, isn't it? It's too bad they only started now...
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Post by J »

Chardok wrote:Laugh if you must, but it's better than the terms of WaMu's TPG infusion earlier this year. Though, in a sense the TPG move was a bit more savvy than a government bail-out in that Killinger wanted WaMu to stay independent so badly that it effectively took a 3-dollar-a-share stock and forces any buyers to take it at 3 buck's a share plus whatever the difference is between 3 and, like 11 dollars a share, plus a ridiculous premium and penalty.

Poison pill. Which is likely why he was ousted so handily - except that one of the principals of TPG and Killinger are longtime friends...dunno what to make of that.
Speaking of WaMu, TPG has waived the buyout price requirements, poison pill is off the table.

Marketwatch
Statement by TPG Capital on the Waiver of Price Reset Payment Provisions at Washington Mutual

Last update: 3:37 p.m. EDT Sept. 17, 2008
FORT WORTH, Texas, Sep 17, 2008 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- TPG Capital said today, "It became clear that it would be in the best interests of Washington Mutual and our investors to waive the price reset payment provisions that were agreed to with the bank at the time of our original investment in April 2008. Our goal is to maximize the bank's flexibility in this difficult market environment."
Which then leads to this:

Reuters link
WaMu may seek merger as pressure mounts: Merrill
Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:59pm EDT

(Reuters) - Washington Mutual's board would seriously consider a merger offer even at a discount to what the Seattle-based thrift believes it is worth, as it faces mounting pressure to pursue options amid credit-rating downgrades, an analyst at Merrill Lynch said.

"Recent markets disruption and lack confidence that Washington Mutual can withstand the credit cycle are increasing the likelihood that it will need to seek shelter from the storm through a merger," analyst Kenneth Bruce said in a note dated Sept 16.

Rating agency Standard & Poor's downgrade of the thrift to "junk" status, "is likely to add more impetus to Washington Mutual to act quickly," Bruce, who lowered his price target on the stock to $1 from $3, said.

The S&P downgrade came on Monday, and followed downgrades last week by Moody's Investors Service and Fitch Ratings.

S&P had expressed concern about the thrift's share price, and said "it increasingly appears that market conditions could overtake credit fundamentals and leave the company with greatly diminished financial flexibility."

Washington Mutual's stock has lost almost 94 percent of its value from its 52-week high of $39.25 on September 19, 2007, to its close on Tuesday of $2.36, as investors worry about continued losses related to risky real-estate loans.

The company's woes has led to speculation that it is primed for a takeover.

On Wednesday the New York Post reported, citing sources, U.S. federal regulators recently called a number of banks asking if they would consider buying Washington Mutual should it eventually falter.

In recent days federal banking regulators contacted Wells Fargo & Co, JPMorgan Chase & Co, HSBC and several other financial institutions to gauge their interest in a possible acquisition of the largest U.S. savings and loan institution, the paper said.

Merrill's Bruce said the retail-bank footprint of the company remains attractive to potential buyers, but the poor quality of its balance sheet may hinder prospects getting full-value from a sale.

Shares of Washington Mutual were trading down 20 cents at $2.16 Wednesday morning on the New York Stock Exchange.
Once the hedge funds get around to WaMu on their bear raid rounds, it's going to get really, really, ugly.
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Post by Chardok »

It's a shame WaMu can't simply dump it's mortgage portfolio. The retail unit is fucking outstanding. But, can't be a thrift without loads of poorhouses. Le sigh
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Post by Chardok »

Whoa - Looks like WaMu is up for auction. Kerry Killinger just became the most poisonous CEO ever. He is almost singlehandedly responsible for sinking a company that has been around for almost 110 years. Shame on him.
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Post by Stormbringer »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:What do we do now when Ford and GMC and Chrysler all are on the verge of going bankrupt and there's no money to bail them out with? That will be very nasty indeed.
Quite possibly less nasty than you think.

The Big Three are a clusterfuck for certain and having them split up would probably be a good thing in the long term. At this point, nominally foreign car makers are doing as much or more actual work in the US. The hit will be unpleasant but at this point the prestige amounts to more than the actual damage done. Even in the good times they've been poorly managed companies and in the long term I don't think all three can survive.

That said, the unions will hate seeing this happen and the Dems will sell the fillings from their teeth before they take that hit. Even the Republicans are unlikely to let it happen. So it's largely a question of what the damage will do to US finances.
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Post by aerius »

PeZook wrote:So...if Morgan-Stanley falls, what major banks will be left on the US market?
Speaking of Morgan-Stanley

New York Times linky
As Fears Grow, Wall St. Titans See Shares Fall

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By BEN WHITE and ERIC DASH
Published: September 17, 2008

Even Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs, the two last titans left standing on Wall Street, are no longer immune.

To the surprise of executives within those firms, and their rivals, the stocks of these powerful companies were drawn into the crisis of investor confidence on Wednesday. Morgan Stanley, whose stock fell almost 25 percent, was considering a merger with Wachovia or another bank to help shore up its finances. Goldman Sachs’s stock fell almost 14 percent, and it had to rebuff rumors that it was seeking a capital infusion.

The assault on these two companies underscored how quickly a sense of fear is spreading through Wall Street. Both firms just reported respectable profits on Tuesday, and were considered in a separate class from weaker banks like Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers that saw the value of their businesses evaporate.

“Stop the Insanity,” wrote Glenn Schorr, a brokerage analyst at UBS, in an e-mail message to clients on Wednesday.

A tie-up with a bank would restore Morgan Stanley to its structure during the Depression, when the firm split from the Morgan banking empire. It would also leave Goldman Sachs as the last major American investment bank after a global financial crisis that has gripped markets for more than a year snowballed last week, forcing the most risk-taking industry in the world to get back to basics.

Only a day ago, Morgan Stanley defended itself from growing doubts about its future, issuing a fairly positive earnings report to ward off concerns about its health. But the fear that gripped markets after Lehman Brothers failed also enveloped the firm.

Seeking to avoid the kind fate that led Lehman and Bear Stearns to collapse, John J. Mack, Morgan Stanley’s chief executive, made an unsuccessful effort on Tuesday evening to persuade Citigroup’s chief executive, Vikram S. Pandit, to enter into a combination, according to people briefed on the talks.

“We need a merger partner or we’re not going to make it,” Mr. Mack told Mr. Pandit, according to two people briefed on the talks.
Mr. Pandit, a former senior investment banker at Morgan Stanley, said Citigroup was not interested. It is thinking of deals it can strike with consumer banks, like buying the struggling Washington Mutual out of bankruptcy if its reported efforts to auction itself should fail, that would provide it with cheaper deposit funding. A Citigroup spokeswoman declined to comment.

Having failed at that, Mr. Mack entered into discussions on Wednesday with Wachovia and several other banks, people briefed on those discussions said. The talks with Wachovia are preliminary and a deal may not emerge. The banks declined to comment.

Goldman Sachs may be under less pressure given its recent history of outperforming its peers. The bank made $11.6 billion last year and has not posted a loss during the credit crisis. Morgan Stanley has also performed well, but has suffered more write-downs and had a loss of $3.6 billion in the fourth quarter of last year.

Still, many specialists say they believe that the monumental events of the last four days herald a new period of painful change for the American financial industry — one that speculators are rushing to pounce on. While Wall Street has gone through tough times before, only to emerge bigger and stronger, some financial specialists question whether the industry can rebound quickly after using high levels of leverage, or borrowed money, to binge on risky investments. Those investments have proved to be disastrous. Worldwide, financial companies have reported more than $500 billion in charges and losses stemming from the credit crisis — a figure some specialists say could eventually exceed $1 trillion.

Merrill Lynch rushed into the arms of Bank of America this week in a deal that in some ways harked back to the past. During the Depression, Congress separated commercial banks, which take deposits and make loans, from investment banks, which underwrite and trade securities. The investment banks were allowed to do business with less oversight, while commercial banks operated with tighter supervision.

But after Congress repealed those Depression-era laws in 1999, commercial banks began muscling in on Wall Street’s turf. As the new competition whittled down profit margins, investment banks used more of their capital to trade securities and also began developing financial derivatives to fuel profits.

Now, executives like John A. Thain, the chief executive of Merrill and a former Goldman executive, say investment banks will need large bases of deposits to shore up their capital.

Investors appeared to be questioning whether either Morgan Stanley or Goldman Sachs would be able to survive alone as panic spread through the markets. The cost of protecting against defaults on the debt of both have shot up, a signal that some investors believe one or both of the banks could be next in the growing list of financial companies to either go bust, get sold or require a government bailout. Any institution without a big, stable balance sheet is seen as vulnerable to the kind of rapid collapse in confidence that led to the demise of Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers.

As Morgan Stanley considered its options on Wednesday, the struggling savings and loanWashington Mutual also put itself up for auction, people briefed on the matter said. Shares of Washington Mutual fell 13.36 percent percent, to $2.01; Wachovia shares fell 20.76 percent, or 2.39 percent, to $9.12.

Normally, a declining share price alone should not force a stalwart like Morgan Stanley into a sale. But those declines, which executives blamed on aggressive hedge funds that profit when stocks drop, can increase the firm’s cost of borrowing by forcing it to post more collateral to lenders when its credit default protection prices rise.

Such an event often leads credit rating agencies to downgrade a company’s debt. That, in turn, can quickly deplete even a well-financed bank’s capital and force into sale or bankruptcy. The real end for Lehman Brothers, for example, came when Moody’s, the ratings agency, downgraded the company’s debt last week, forcing it into a corner.

Indeed, with healthy earnings, Wednesday’s relentless downward spiral in shares of both Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs made little sense to some.

Mr. Schorr, the analyst at UBS, said the increase in the risk premiums investors are demanding on debt have become self-fulfilling prophecies that now operate almost entirely detached from underlying fact, a thought echoed by people inside both banks and by several investors.

“It’s all confidence, it’s not reality,” Mr. Schorr said.

Morgan and Goldman have some problems, including a parcel of troubled mortgage assets and trading and advisory businesses that are vulnerable to a slowing economy.

“But that is not what is going on here,” Mr. Schorr said. “It is just a flat-out squeeze that should not be able to happen. The negative feedback loop has to be somehow suspended,” he added, “but I don’t know exactly how you do that.” Goldman Sachs declined to comment.

On Wednesday, the Securities and Exchange Commission reinstated a rule curbing the ability of investors to drive the share price of firms down to make a profit. Nearly five days ago, Wall Street chieftans who were gathered for emergency meetings at the New York Federal Reserve bank pleaded for the agency to revive the rule, which expired in the summer.

Mr. Mack has been in contact with regulators about what he views as abusive short-selling of the company’s shares. On Wednesday, he sent a memo to employees assuring them of the bank’s strong capital position and blaming short-sellers for driving the stock down “in the midst of a market controlled by fear and rumors.” He plans to hold a town hall meeting with Morgan employees Thursday morning.
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