SDNWorld Redux: Moderator proclaimations.

[Lonestar]

Consider this dead official--that 600-bomber loss Beowulf claimed is deader than a doorknob. However, I'm not sure how many were knocked out, or the results of the strike yet. But that was way, way excessive, short of using nuclear-tipped AAMs and SAMs.

If Shep can arbitrarily use every fucking psuedo-proposal to have come down the turnpike between 1950-1980, while abandoning the agreed upon "points" system under the pretense of having the his military be "Pakistan like" in quality(which, by his writing, it isn't), then we sure as shit can take down his gaggle of old-ass bombers.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Consider this dead official--that 600-bomber loss Beowulf claimed is deader than a doorknob. However, I'm not sure how many were knocked out, or the results of the strike yet. But that was way, way excessive, short of using nuclear-tipped AAMs and SAMs.

If Shep can arbitrarily use every fucking psuedo-proposal to have come down the turnpike between 1950-1980, while abandoning the agreed upon "points" system under the pretense of having the his military be "Pakistan like" in quality(which, by his writing, it isn't), then we sure as shit can take down his gaggle of old-ass bombers.

Sure. 300 sounds quite reasonable. But 600 out of that strike package? No.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Okay, did the updates on what exactly has been going on.

[MKSheppard]

If Shep can arbitrarily use every fucking psuedo-proposal to have come down the turnpike between 1950-1980, while abandoning the agreed upon "points" system under the pretense of having the his military be "Pakistan like" in quality(which, by his writing, it isn't), then we sure as shit can take down his gaggle of old-ass bombers.

Couple of problems here. Pakistan has a per capita GDP of $2,600. If any of you bothered to look at my economic stats; which have been up since, well.....forever....I've got a Per Capita GDP of $5,000, which puts me into the rough rank-class of South Africa.

Secondly; while the MESS and everyone else was ooo ooo aahing and buying up every possibul hi-hi-tech system, like Nimitzes (o my god so many), F-22s (o my god so many), B-1s (OMG), I chose to continue to incrementally upgrade older technology, befitting lower GDP compared to everyone else in the game.

Thirdly, I, along with Sea Skimmer outright ignored the points system because it was horribly broken, and allowed people like Wilkens to amass unrealistic forces (NIMITZ SWARM), and costed our militaries based on GDP and budgetary costs.

Fourthly, It's not my fault that the older technology is still very goddamn lethal.

Fifthly, You'll note that pretty much every major weapon I'm firing or project I've done, like the F-106H and F-105K modernizations, etc have been done with significant Japanistani assistance; e.g. I help provide some of the funding and all that, and "buy into" Japanistani programs.

Sixthly, my B-56s may be old old; but when you're sending out bombers at a ratio of 1:1 with ECM/Chaff Jammers and long range interceptor bombers; taking down such a force is going to be a swine.

It's not going to be
1.) Launch Missile Volley 1
2.) close on afterburner
3.) Launch missile voley 2
4.) clean up survivors with guns.

It's going to be:
1.) Launch missile volley 1
2.) Scream in horror as your RWRs light up from fire control radars from the DFB-56s
3.) Evade, Jam, and manouver like wildly in the hope your name isn't on a FMRAAM.
4.) Launch Volley 2.
5.) Goto 2.

[K. A. Pital]

F-22s (o my god so many)

Cut it, Shep. Aquisitions of F-22 and the like were specifically limited to 1% of possible aquisitions from the get-go.

...costed our militaries based on GDP and budgetary costs.

If other people were allowed to do the same, or even informed of such possibility, you'd have swarms of supersonic bombers with specialised ECM wings, overhead very soon.

Next, since when are AAMs a fire-and-forget technology? Even when fighters launch missiles against another fighter, they generally close in to track the kill - otherwise little is certain even with the most long-range missiles. Your bombers closing in with a fighter swarm would result in the deaths of at least some of them.

Also, if the MESS uses AIM-54s and AIM-120s, it can down some of the BOMARCs which would still be launched through before the radar site is destroyed. Of course, conserving the missiles for engagements versus enemy fighters is a better option, but survival of a bomber is more important.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Can Shep possibly support that many bombers if the cost of the bombers were inflation adjusted? Those bombers were expensive as hell in their day, and they still would be to an extent now, even if cheaper than a B-1B bomber.

[K. A. Pital]

That's probably his entire bomber force, so once it's destroyed, the game is over.

[CmdrWilkens]

Shep currently operates 3,570 active duty aircraft and 4794 total aircraft (by the way Shep you did your math wrong as you claimed 3801 total A+R but that doesn't match adding all your components together) which is 87% of the USAF active total (4093 aircraft) and 83% of the USAF total active/ANG/reseve (5778). He does so on 27% of the budget which means he is spending 67% less per plane on his AF than the USAF. I don't know if that differential is significant enough but the USAF operates heavily in transports over fighters and bombers while those 4794 are almost all (with the exception of 600 tankers) combat aircraft. Moreover with his munitions development costs (since FMRAAM isn't operational yet today) have to be comparable while his fleet age if the 106's and the rest ofhis fleet are 80's variants would be pretty comparable with the modern USAF. SO long story short I have the tendency to disbelieve he should be able to maintain his bombers at the levels claimed.

Certainly even if they are well maintained we should have had, at a minimum, a week or so warning when he sent his entire bomber force through depot maintenance otherwise a noticeable chunk of his force should be grounded for maintenance.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe that explains the relatively little numbers of his fighter planes? Maybe they're like, buried underground. Like the Iraqi Air Force.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Maybe that explains the relatively little numbers of his fighter planes? Maybe they're like, buried underground. Like the Iraqi Air Force.

If that is indeed the case, he has yet to post about it.

Not to mention, from the way I see it, this is rapidly degenerating into a ground war. What is Shep going to do then? Gas everyone, including his citizens, which I wouldn't put it past him?

[CmdrWilkens]

That's probably his entire bomber force, so once it's destroyed, the game is over.

Well it should certainly be most of the force that he can field right now, if all were to be shot down he does have 300 more B-56Gs, 135 more RB-56Hs, 135 more DFB-56Js and 45 more PB-56Ks left. Now some percentage of that force has to be in depot maintenance so I would expect that he has no other available PB-56Ks and somewhere between 75 and 100 RB and DFB-56s each along with 200-250 or so B-56Gs.

[Shroom Man 777]

Let it be said that while Prime Minister Shroom and Shroomania officially goes "ceasefire mang!", we'll be unofficially winking at you (MESS) to FINISH HIM. FATALITY! MUWAHAHAHA!

Go beat him with stick. Finish the shenenigans before he shoots nuclear penis missiles and makes the skies explode in less than ten years in the future, game-time.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, I'm also curious: if Shep was reduced to Pakistan for his dickery, why does he field the USAF level airforce and future weapons (with not even having the budget for it!)? That should not be so - which means Shep must be punished.

We all know he loves the USAF and bomber swarms. He deliberately claimed old bombers, but stuffed an improbable number of them and missiles.

In fact, considering his dickery in the last game, I motion Shep's reduction to Iraq's status post-1991. He claimed that "turd world shitholes" can accomplish a lot, but instead he plays a nation whose military is roughly at US/USSR levels - turd world, right.

[Shroom Man 777]

I say the Impact Crater Archipelago gets a Deep Impact.

The Old Dominion will be spared. Somehow.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

In fact, considering his dickery in the last game, I motion Shep's reduction to Iraq's status post-1991. He claimed that "turd world shitholes" can accomplish a lot, but instead he plays a nation whose military is roughly at US/USSR levels - turd world, right.

I say the Impact Crater Archipelago gets a Deep Impact.

The Old Dominion will be spared. Somehow.

And let all of Shep's nifty hardware go to waste? I say have Lonestar swoop in while Shep's down, seize everything that's not nailed down, and hold an international garage sale.

"Stratojets! Get some cheap Stratojets! All Delta Darts now half off!"

Shep gets reduced to post-'91 Iraq levels, Lonestar gets some more cash, we get what's left of Shep's inventory on the cheap. Everyone's happy.

[Shroom Man 777]

You are an evil mang, Langley.

Since I have an embassy in Shepistan, I think I'm in a good position to start buying shit. I just hope Shep gets into an economic crisis.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm not going to strip Shep's military. That will be up to the MESS to do.

You know, you could just fucking mobilize your militaries and invade Shepistan in a conventional war if you distrust him that much. There's nothing that prevents you from conquering Shepistan.

[CmdrWilkens]

I'm not going to strip Shep's military. That will be up to the MESS to do.

You know, you could just fucking mobilize your militaries and invade Shepistan in a conventional war if you distrust him that much. There's nothing that prevents you from conquering Shepistan.

I'm not requesting a strip...and sorry if it seems that way. My point is that he has some, claimed, incredibly high performance figher and bomber craft and he is runningthem for pennies against what a modern airforce spends. From my thinking this suggests that his maintenance and reliability should be compromised. I would be more than happy to give him his entire strike package and cut down possibly even below the mod-stated losses based on his performance claims but in turn the only way he could get that many aloft was to ground the rest of his bomber fleet....that would be realistic. Part of the reason WIlkonia hasn't made major strikes is that it is taking me this long just to get ships and forces in range...its between 5000 and 6000 km of sailing to get a strike group into position and in turn it will take a while to move land forces by air transport even granted that I have a modest sized airlift available...I'm trying to be realistic here and not have uber-jets by the thousands for no cash spent maintaining them.

[Coyote]

Another thing to consider might be rotating maintenance priorities-- a particular group is lavished with repairs and resources while all others languish, then next fiscal year the money train cycles to another unit, etc, coming around full circle every few years or so.

That way, only one group at any given moment is ever truly at Strength, with the rest of them in various stages of decay until the budgets comes 'round their way again.

See my post in the OOC thread about how we should probably re-work the points system UP, instead of re-work the budget system DOWN.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The point system is now irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned it was just a starting guide--you are free to build to your budget at this point.

[CmdrWilkens]

The point system is now irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned it was just a starting guide--you are free to build to your budget at this point.

Fiar enough, I'm planning on keeping my F-15Cs then and just adding F-22s should be fun.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, I likewise stopped out-phasing "obsolete" machinery from my military and I'm simply boosting up it's strength each year onwards.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm not stripping Shep's SSANs, because nobody complained when the OOBs were fluid, so he has them. You're right, he probably shouldn't, but then again, he does have the posts to be an Imperium. His cheating around the edges in response to being demoted is to be expected.

Of course, I've also decided that it will take 15 years for Shep to get primitive gun-type fission devices and another 5 to get a thermonuke and another 5 after that to get a respectable force of thermonuclear weapons mated with some semblence of a real delivery system, so there is no strategic nuclear threat from Shepistan for the next 25 years and more like 30 before he could actually threaten to do what he did in the last game.

Also, for the sake of the game I may intervene using the powers of Q if he starts strategic use of bio-weapons.

[K. A. Pital]

Shep's hugeish SSAN have existed for a long time, but it can't have propeller-less propulsion system. No pump-jets. A propeller, and a far noisier one as well due to the size.

[MKSheppard]

I'm not requesting a strip...and sorry if it seems that way. My point is that he has some, claimed, incredibly high performance figher and bomber craft and he is runningthem for pennies against what a modern airforce spends.

Fuck you.

I costed out the costs for my airforce quite well, they've been available for everyone to see:

Air Forces Total Budget: $39.57 billion
Air Forces Yearly Procurement Budget: $2.77 billion
Air Forces Yearly R&DTE Budget: $2.77 Billion
Air Forces Military Pay: $6.19 Billion
Air Forces O&M Costs: $16.37 billion
Air Forces Infrastructure Costs: $11.46 billion
Air Forces Budget: $13.16 million surplus

In the case of my F-106Hs, it costs me $6.75 million yearly to maintain each plane in an operational status. When you take into account infrastructure costs -- $0.70 dollars spent in Infrastructure per dollar of O&M costs is the average for the US Military; it comes out to a total of $11.47 million spent each year to fly a F-106H. Then add in the costs for the 39,000 people who man the seven F-106H groups.

The real cost saving is in manpower costs -- If I had a per capita GDP of $40,000~ like the US; I'd have to pay $49 billion in manpower (salaries and benefits) for my Air Force alone, but since my PC GDP is only $5,000; I only pay $6 billion each year.