secular humanism and abortion

[Shrykull]

Ever heard this one as an argument against secular humanism, that it encourages abortion or something.

[Wicked Pilot]

I am a SH, and I oppose all but life saving procedures during the late parts of pregancy, but I have no problem with early abortion.

The arguement of SH encouraging abortion is absurd. It is just another fundie strawman agruement.

[Julhelm]

One would assume the fundies wouldn´t see such actions as stoning a woman to death for getting pregnant outside marriage as the result of rape as something repulsive and barbaric.

[Durandal]

Ever heard this one as an argument against secular humanism, that it encourages abortion or something.

The argument presupposes that abortion is irretrievably wrong. In other words, it's a sneaky, dishonest debating tactic. Basically, some idiot can declare than secular humanism is bad because it encourages abortion, so if a secular humanist tries to say that abortion isn't necessarily bad, the moron can scream, "red herring!"

It's up to anti-abortionists to prove that the embryo is a human being deserving of human rights. Right now, the best indication for when life begins is somewhere near the beginning of the third trimester, where brain waves which resemble dreaming patterns are present. This is where I would have the line drawn for abortion. Third trimester abortions aren't only immoral; they're also stupid. Why would you wait that long to terminate a pregnancy?

[Wicked Pilot]

One would assume the fundies wouldn´t see such actions as stoning a woman to death for getting pregnant outside marriage as the result of rape as something repulsive and barbaric.

Good point, may I poke you?

[Exonerate]

Fundies say everything except Christianity promotes Satan

Go figure. Last time I got in an argument with a person who insisted that evolution was devaluing human life.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Fundies say everything except Christianity promotes Satan

Go figure. Last time I got in an argument with a person who insisted that evolution was devaluing human life.

That's a fundie tactic. They link Evolution to secularism and atheism, which they blame for rising drug use, rising divorce rates, wars, obesity, telemarketers, and the Anna Nicole Show. Really, it's really not an honest argument.

[Exonerate]

Hey, evolution caused the holocaust! After all, Nazis used it to justify killing the Jews! Atheism led to the downfall of the Soviet Union! All that secular music is responsible for the troubles of today's youth!

[InnerBrat]

I have no idea what deifnes a SH, so i don't know if I am one or not

But i was totally pro-life until I read this article:

Temrin, H, Buchmayer, S. and Enquist, M.; 2000; Step-parents and infanticide: new data contradict evolutionary predictions; Proc. R. Soc. Lond. B 267 943-945

Basically, in trying to study factors affecting child abuse and infanticide in Sweden, it turned out that it was so rare as to be unstudiable, occuring nearly exclusively in cases of psychosis.

One possible explanation is related to unwanetd children. In Sweden, th frequency of unwanted births is low in a world-wide comparison (the Alan Guttmacher Institute 1999). A major reason for this is probably that Sweden has a long history of legal abortions and that abortions are widely accepted. In Canada, the frequency of unwanted births is roughly twice as high as in Sweden (ibid). unwanted births may increase the risk of children being mistreated and are likely to be relatively common among young mothers

So I asked myself, what's the worst evil, pre-birth abortion or child abuse and post-birth infanticide? And I became pro-choice.

[Falcon]

So I asked myself, what's the worst evil, pre-birth abortion or child abuse and post-birth infanticide? And I became pro-choice.

Whats the difference?

[Lagmonster]

So I asked myself, what's the worst evil, pre-birth abortion or child abuse and post-birth infanticide? And I became pro-choice.

Whats the difference?

The difference should be obvious. She stated that she was asking for the LESSER EVIL of the two. That is a difference, you know.

[jegs2]

One would assume the fundies wouldn´t see such actions as stoning a woman to death for getting pregnant outside marriage as the result of rape as something repulsive and barbaric.

Which "Fundies" support that?

[Darth Wong]

One would assume the fundies wouldn´t see such actions as stoning a woman to death for getting pregnant outside marriage as the result of rape as something repulsive and barbaric.

Which "Fundies" support that?

Actually, fundies in many Islamic countries still do this, the ancient Israelites made it into law, etc. Modern Christian fundies in America don't go for this any more, but they uphold other portions of the same books (Exodus and Leviticus, to be precise) in order to condemn things like homosexuality, etc.

PS. Totally off-topic, I hope you're enjoying your stay in Japan. I've never been there.

[jegs2]

PS. Totally off-topic, I hope you're enjoying your stay in Japan. I've never been there.

Thanks -- on my final night shift here -- most folks are watching DVD's on their laptops. The Japanese officers are fun to work with, but the weather here is very cold (from 0 to minus 12). The next few days will be off for me before we all head back to the States. My wife's orders include for me to get more Gaisha (SP?) dolls and a Japanese shot glass (we collect those from different places). Look forward to going home (the men in my room like to stay up late, get drunk, make noise, etc.)

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Hmmm... should I? Might as well. I don't see abortion as being "wrong". I do perceive it, with one major caveat, to betray a basic lack of intelligence. That caveat being non-consensual sex. Because unless sex was forced, the parties involved made a decision to have sex; and it doesn't take a lot of brainpower or memory retention to be aware of the fact that heterosexual coitus is a reproductive funtion. The following analogy oversimplifies, but I think its basic concept holds true: if you flip the light switch in your room to the "ON" position, it would be stupid to assume the light won't come on (presuming, of course, the equipment is in proper working condition). Likewise, if you put your dick in some girl's pussy and blow semen all over the inside of it, it is stupid to expect nothing to happen.

Yes, there are contraceptives. Do they work 100% of the time? No. The only thing that prevents pregnancy 100% of the time is non-coital sex. You know her ass can't get pregnant.

Sorry, I feel I've gone on a tangent. Do forgive me.

[NecronLord]

One would assume the fundies wouldn´t see such actions as stoning a woman to death for getting pregnant outside marriage as the result of rape as something repulsive and barbaric.

Which "Fundies" support that?

Actually, fundies in many Islamic countries still do this, the ancient Israelites made it into law, etc. Modern Christian fundies in America don't go for this any more, but they uphold other portions of the same books (Exodus and Leviticus, to be precise) in order to condemn things like homosexuality, etc.

Only because they can't get away with it I would imagine.

[InnerBrat]

Very good points, and I see where you're coming from. I'm also going to assume you're including risks to the mother's health (only becasue everyone seems to - I even had one pro-lifer redefine abortion so it excluded 'life-saving operations')

But kids are stupid. Teenagers fuck. (earlier and earlier, now, as there's a trend towards sexually maturing younger). it just seems stupid to punish a teenage girl for one mistake... It will fuck up her life, his life, and the child's life.

I'm not pro-abortion in the sense that it's always necessary and an easy way out. I'm pro-choice because it's such a hard choice to make, it shouldn't be made over a druken fumble...

[Durandal]

So I asked myself, what's the worst evil, pre-birth abortion or child abuse and post-birth infanticide? And I became pro-choice.

Whats the difference?

It has to do with one having a functioning brain and the other not having a functioning brain.

[Falcon]

So I asked myself, what's the worst evil, pre-birth abortion or child abuse and post-birth infanticide? And I became pro-choice.

Whats the difference?

It has to do with one having a functioning brain and the other not having a functioning brain.

So you'd agree abortion should be illegal as soon as there is brain wave activity?

This all comes down to when you think a life is a life btw, which is why I ask.

[AdmiralKanos]

So you'd agree abortion should be illegal as soon as there is brain wave activity?

You finally figured it out, eh? We've only said it countless times for months whenever this subject comes up. There is no brain stem until the second trimester and no significant brain activity until we approach the third trimester.

This all comes down to when you think a life is a life btw, which is why I ask.

How do you define human life? By the bag of flesh we occupy, or the thoughts and feelings of our minds? Thoughts and feelings are brain functions.

[Falcon]

So you'd agree abortion should be illegal as soon as there is brain wave activity?

You finally figured it out, eh? We've only said it countless times for months whenever this subject comes up. There is no brain stem until the second trimester and no significant brain activity until we approach the third trimester.

This all comes down to when you think a life is a life btw, which is why I ask.

How do you define human life? By the bag of flesh we occupy, or the thoughts and feelings of our minds? Thoughts and feelings are brain functions.

Actually I've never seen an abortion thread here before, though that doesn't mean there hasn't been one.

As for brain activity, I had believed it was much sooner than you indicated

Dr. Vincent J. Collins, a diplomate of the American Board of Anesthesiologists. He estimated the age at which a preborn child feels pain: "As early as eight to 10 weeks' gestation, and definitely by thirteen and a half weeks, the human fetus experiences organic pain."

Personally I believe that life begins at conception. I am Pro-Choice though, everyone (except rape victims) has the choice to NOT have sex

[The Dark]

My personal belief is that abortions should be easy to get only for medical purposes or in cases of rape. If someone was just lazy and didn't feel like using protection, then gets themself knocked up, then IMHO it's their own responsibility, and killing the child should not be something done lightly. Removing all responsibility for actions is a bad thing.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

So I asked myself, what's the worst evil, pre-birth abortion or child abuse and post-birth infanticide? And I became pro-choice.

Whats the difference?

One deals with large amounts of physical and emotional inflicted upon a fully functional being, the other deals with killing something that doesn't even have significant brainwave activity. I'd say the latter is less painful

[Darth Wong]

As for brain activity, I had believed it was much sooner than you indicated

Dr. Vincent J. Collins, a diplomate of the American Board of Anesthesiologists. He estimated the age at which a preborn child feels pain: "As early as eight to 10 weeks' gestation, and definitely by thirteen and a half weeks, the human fetus experiences organic pain."

Personally I believe that life begins at conception. I am Pro-Choice though, everyone (except rape victims) has the choice to NOT have sex

Red herring. Nerve endings might send pain impulses, but the brain does not develop until the second trimester and higher-level brain functions do not begin until we approach the third. At the very least, we're looking at the second trimester before you consider a fetus a human being. This person is obviously using some bizarre definition of "organic pain"; how do you feel pain in any recognizable sense when there's no brain yet?

[Darth Wong]

My personal belief is that abortions should be easy to get only for medical purposes or in cases of rape. If someone was just lazy and didn't feel like using protection, then gets themself knocked up, then IMHO it's their own responsibility, and killing the child should not be something done lightly. Removing all responsibility for actions is a bad thing.

And what if someone uses protection but gets pregnant anywaY? How does that fit into your neat little scheme?