SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread II

[PeZook]

Well, the FASTA is getting about enough funding now to comfortably fund a Moon mission in six-seven years.

And it's more than just MRBMs. Aerodynamic research will help build hypersonic aircraft and missiles, and spy satellites...do I really need to advertise them?

[DarthShady]

Well, the FASTA is getting about enough funding now to comfortably fund a Moon mission in six-seven years.

And it's more than just MRBMs. Aerodynamic research will help build hypersonic aircraft and missiles, and spy satellites...do I really need to advertise them?

PeZook do you have a full list of everybody who is participating in FASTA and could you post it?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, the FASTA is getting about enough funding now to comfortably fund a Moon mission in six-seven years.

And it's more than just MRBMs. Aerodynamic research will help build hypersonic aircraft and missiles, and spy satellites...do I really need to advertise them?

Sure. But I would put the moon landing maybe off by a few more years...

I guess if you could rejig it's fine. Just remember national defence priorities come first.

Also, I would admit that a heavy booster would come in useful for launching aircraft away from Japanistan.

[Master_Baerne]

If this game breaks apart, I'll be quite irritated. No Moon landing, AGAIN

No Moom landing makes third world nations sad.

Espcially third world nations with plans that involve space.


Also, will Byzantine, the CSR or the USSR sell MiG-31s to Eutopia?

I will; I'm planning to upgrade to Western fighters anyway.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, that's that....

*waits for the inevitable howling from Shep*

[K. A. Pital]

What are you doing people? A war against Shepistan would take years - I mean, the Iraq overtake took months, and that's with Kuwait as platzdarm and superiority almost everywhere. Did people not think such a war would be inevitable when the first game was finished, anyway?

P.S. Anyone running MiG-31's can request me or Byzantium to upgrade to MiG-31BM standard.

P.P.S. The Moderator can fast-forward events, but players? I think we should leave it to Marina whether the Shep war continues or is finished with Shep's defeat (which is incidentally the only reasonable outcome, especially after all MESS nations joined their CVBGs into a super-fleet, whereas Shep only has two SSANs remaining, expended most of his air-defense, suffered heavy losses in strikes versus OD and so on).

P.P.P.S. The loss of several carriers would probably act like a Pearl Harbor incident and loose all sorts of Hell on Shep. He miscalculated that, but why fast-forward the events so quickly?

[Steve]

I think Coyote was being sarcastic in a fit of anger.

I sympathize with his side. Not all of us have the knowledge of military arcana that Shep has, nor the time to look it up. It's not completely fair that we're expected to either pour through pages and pages of articles and online profiles regarding the dozens of pieces of miltech out in the world to understand how the combat systems of the past half century function, and that if we don't do this we make ourselves vulnerable to having our militaries savaged by players who do know such minutiae even if, realistically, our military planners and tech people should have knowledge of the minutiae in question.

For instance, the argument about USN anti-torpedo measures being so crappy. The reason why has been articulated. But why would MESS states, knowing that Shepistan builds a lot of subs that could pose a grave threat to their expensive carriers, not invest in better anti-torp measures to reduce that threat? The navies of Wilkonia, Canissia, Old Dominion, etc. are not the USN in terms of what they're meant to do.

I'll use myself as an example. I may not know much about anti-torp measures, but do you think the RCN would not look to provide maximum protection from torpedo attack for their precious LHDs and CVAs, which were purchased at great expense for Cascadia?

Yet if I didn't know to state that they have this capability - and I certainly will now - what would've happened if I'd had an encounter with Shep's forces? Shep, for all his bad rep, may be nice and inquire as to what anti-torp measures I have, but ultimately I never said what I have and if he figures I have the USN standard as well, well, I'd be fucked, wouldn't I?

One solution for implementation in this game or the next is for players to be permitted to grade their capabilities in certain areas (CIWS, anti-missile intercept missiles, anti-torp, etc.) for their various ship classes and to have them in their OrBats.

Of course, it'd also help if people actually tried to come up with their own equipment types - if still broadly based on RL stuff - than simply C&Ping from existing military stuff to the extent that a bunch of different countries apparently share the same designation system.

[Steve]

Hrm, forgot Shep's SSAN fleet was so weak in numbers. And with the capabilities hidden as well. Okay, a blow against using superior torp defense.

Though IIRC Japanistan's weak navy still has quite a few subs, and they're probably the second-most-likely foe that MESS war-planners were considering after Shepistan.

[K. A. Pital]

But why would MESS states, knowing that Shepistan builds a lot of subs that could pose a grave threat to their expensive carriers, not invest in better anti-torp measures to reduce that threat?

Uh... Shep has three SSANs...

But what you say carries a measure of truth - though, it would be more applicable to Lonestar's Navy since he is the one who constantly wrangled with Shep and thus could have experience in Shep tactics

[The Duchess of Zeon]

What are you doing people? :shock: A war against Shepistan would take years - I mean, the Iraq overtake took months, and that's with Kuwait as platzdarm and superiority almost everywhere. Did people not think such a war would be inevitable when the first game was finished, anyway? :?

P.S. Anyone running MiG-31's can request me or Byzantium to upgrade to MiG-31BM standard.

P.P.S. The Moderator can fast-forward events, but players? I think we should leave it to Marina whether the Shep war continues or is finished with Shep's defeat (which is incidentally the only reasonable outcome, especially after all MESS nations joined their CVBGs into a super-fleet, whereas Shep only has two SSANs remaining, expended most of his air-defense, suffered heavy losses in strikes versus OD and so on).

P.P.P.S. The loss of several carriers would probably act like a Pearl Harbor incident and loose all sorts of Hell on Shep. He miscalculated that, but why fast-forward the events so quickly?

Well, I'm not speeding up time, so this can just keep playing out like a Bond novel or something (the interesting author, not James Bond) until hell freezes over or everyone gets tired. Though, really, people, if you're thinking about ending this one right now:

Grow some balls.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Look, you people can, if you want to, destroy Shepistan's military-industrial complex in sooner than years--this IS modern warfare and he cannot survive for long once his air defence network is suppressed. The sooner the ground invasion starts the better; this a work of a couple years, perhaps, but in real-time it'll be "over by christmas", so to speak.

Your damn choice at this point, though half of you could easily be deposed by your people if you made peace after the casualties you've suffered and let Shep get the fuck away with it.

[Steve]

I have to agree with that. Shep's about shot his bolt, and the MESS still has a lot of firepower to throw at him. Well, unless Shep manages to call for peace successfully. And I'm not sure MESS will go with that.

I may be irritated that he's making base assumptions about capabilities based on players simply indicating the carrier designs from RL their carriers are like (Think of it, why would a Wilkonian CVN be the exact same design as a Canissian or a Tian Xia?), but it does work for Shep to have caught a perhaps overconfident MESS by surprise with a potent, well-planned and executed attack strategy, one that a state like Shepistan could be expected to implement when facing overwhelming attack.

Perhaps he's making himself a tad too successful - for instance I think it wouldn't be out of the question for one of his missile-deployed torps to have failed and thus permitting one of Yenchin's SSNs to survive, shit like that happens in war - but the basis is sound. I leave it for Marina's judgement to determine how successful Shep should be.

[Coyote]

I think Coyote was being sarcastic in a fit of anger.

Only partially. I fully intend that to be serious and to stand, because I just want to follow all this through to its obvious conclusion. We all know where it'll end up going, and instead of going through the motions and all the posturing and weeks and weeks of aggravating rules-lawyering, whines and nitpicks I just want to get to the conclusion of this.

I sympathize with his side. Not all of us have the knowledge of military arcana that Shep has, nor the time to look it up. It's not completely fair that we're expected to either pour through pages and pages of articles and online profiles regarding the dozens of pieces of miltech out in the world to understand how the combat systems of the past half century function, and that if we don't do this we make ourselves vulnerable to having our militaries savaged by players who do know such minutiae even if, realistically, our military planners and tech people should have knowledge of the minutiae in question.

And, IMO, this is not supposed to be that kind of game. Like I mentioned earlier, some of us are trying to play Monopoly; some of us are trying to play Risk. Or, to put it electronically, I'm trying to play Sid Meier's Civilisation, Shep's trying to play Command & Conquer/Red Alert. When I eagerly signe don to this reboot, I thought I made it clear what I was looking for, and while I am not against the idea of any sort of conflict, I don't want it to be the driving arena in the story. What I'm getting on my computer screen each day is not what I signed up for. If we had agreed "let's have a war game" I'd know better-- either I would orient the whole thing towards war, or, I'd just not get involved in the first place.

...Of course, it'd also help if people actually tried to come up with their own equipment types - if still broadly based on RL stuff - than simply C&Ping from existing military stuff to the extent that a bunch of different countries apparently share the same designation system.

I tried fleshing out differences-- making this 'just about the same' but giving different names, histories, etc, to be easily compatible and understood. I put a lot of time, thought and effort into this to make it entertaining, interesting, amusing and relaxing. Instead, I'm just getting Zerg-rushed by the same mindless bullshit that ended the last game-- which I'm still unhappy about, to be honest, because that was fun.

People play games for fun and relaxation. When the game is not fun and relaxing, but frustrating and full of endless rounds of one-upmanship, it is no longer a game but a chore. I have enough chores in my real life. When I started logging on here the last couple days and realized I was *dreading* what I was going to find, instead of cheerfully looking forward to it, I knew things had gone down the wrong path.

I don't have the time or energy to devote to another job, even a part-time one. So either the train goes back on the track, or one of the engineers will find a more satisfying means of spending his valuable time.

[Coiler]

I have to agree with that. Shep's about shot his bolt, and the MESS still has a lot of firepower to throw at him. Well, unless Shep manages to call for peace successfully. And I'm not sure MESS will go with that.

If someone sank three of my carriers, fired ballistic missiles at my cities, and killed my citizens, I would most certainly not make peace with him.

[Czechmate]

I think the MESS should make a massive D-Day (or more appropriately a massive modern-day landing as depicted in Ace Combat 4 or 6) landing and then the 'air war' arc will end and the 'ground war' arc can begin.

People play games for fun and relaxation. When the game is not fun and relaxing, but frustrating and full of endless rounds of one-upmanship, it is no longer a game but a chore. I have enough chores in my real life. When I started logging on here the last couple days and realized I was *dreading* what I was going to find, instead of cheerfully looking forward to it, I knew things had gone down the wrong path.

I don't have the time or energy to devote to another job, even a part-time one. So either the train goes back on the track, or one of the engineers will find a more satisfying means of spending his valuable time.

I cannot put into words how wholeheartedly I agree with this statement. I've been dreading more rules-lawyering and such since the botched Uranium War arc more than I've actually looked forward to reading something new and interesting.

But, more importantly...how can we make it enjoyable again? Short of hunting Shep down IC and hanging him after a Saddam-y show trial, I mean. :3

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Just end the thing as Coyote's post.

I was expecting for some interaction in the game, but IMHO it's decreasing and forcing people to cut down the interaction in their own posts. If it's like that the Fanfic section might be a better place.

[Steve]

Interaction's getting low because so many players have only limited online time that's effecting their ability to participate.

[Norseman]

Interaction's getting low because so many players have only limited online time that's effecting their ability to participate.

I have an important post that's been on the backburner for yonks, and I'm not sure when I'll get around to writing it.

[DarthShady]

It is done.

[MKSheppard]

Uh... Shep has three SSANs...

Uhm. Wrong.

Permit SSAN: First Shepistani SSN, it had one machinery vessel + command center vessel + weapons vessel and 21" torpedo tubes. Basically proven weapons in a brand new hull, with a natural circulation reactor that had been tested on land (ultimate meltdown proof reactor!) and put to sea. Now essentially a special projects boat since she was the first SSN built, etc.

Flasher SSAN: Same layout as Permit; but the pressure vessels are lengthened slightly as Shepistani engineers and workers get experience with this kind of construction. 26" Torpedo tubes installed to prove them. Basically product improved version thats a bit longer.

Gato SSAN: Uses Lengthened Flasher-type pressure vessels, for a total of: two machinery vessels + command center vessel + two weapons vessels. Built to prove the concept of a tandem pressure hull. Special Type 26" Tubes installed on last couple of boats in class.

Jack SSAN: Same layout as Gato, inclusion of Multipurpose trunks. Special Type 26" Tubes are now standard equipment.

Total numbers are:
1 Permit
1 Flasher
4 Gato
1 Jack

Total about 7.

[Sea Skimmer]

To be honest, I am about to just throw in the towel on this. I didn't sign on to a war game; I thought it was clear that this was characters, diplomacy, politics and brinksmanship-- with a few brushfire wars at best.

Well then maybe you shouldn’t have made yourselves all slaves to the Old Dominions foreign policy, and then proceeded not to give a shit after it blatantly provoked an attack by invading those islands. This could easily have been a two nation war everyone else could ignore, except for selling armaments to both sides at once but you all just had to have those alliances without thought to have the strategic implications would be.

I mean honestly, ally with a nation that’s stuck in a 50 year long blood feud with a place run by Sheppard? What did you expect?

[Coyote]

Well then maybe you shouldn’t have made yourselves all slaves to the Old Dominions foreign policy, and then proceeded not to give a shit after it blatantly provoked an attack by invading those islands. This could easily have been a two nation war everyone else could ignore, except for selling armaments to both sides at once but you all just had to have those alliances without thought to have the strategic implications would be.

I mean honestly, ally with a nation that’s stuck in a 50 year long blood feud with a place run by Sheppard? What did you expect?

Or, that Sheppard violated a decades-old treaty, and deliberately provoked someone that had the backing of a massive alliance? What did he expect?

[MKSheppard]

Or, that Sheppard violated a decades-old treaty, and deliberately provoked someone that had the backing of a massive alliance? What did he expect?

A decades old treaty that Lonestar made up out of the blue. Sort of like how Adrian backdated his resignation from the MESS in the last game.

Shepistani forces had been in the Fucklands and San Fuego for like the last 40 years and all of a sudden what? They're in violation?

[MKSheppard]

Now, once again, we're playing to Shep's fourth-grade rules of engagement, where no matter what happens, he just happens to have a magic ubertech superweapon to counter it on a shoestring budget.

Hum.

Wait a moment.

Who was the one who had his SSAN sit around for several days doing nothing, with their sonar shack people staring at waterfalls from sonars until their eyeballs fell out to locate the Wilkonian SSNs via faint traces and building up tracks slowly?

Now who comes in and somehow with "advanced sensor technology" spots a submarine that's dived deep, and rigged for ultraquiet within an hour or so? That's right? Yenchin!

I hate to say it to you guys; but there is nothing ubertech superweapon about my SSANs or their armaments.

Turboelectric drives? The US Navy put them to sea in two one shot prototypes; the USS Tullibee and USS Glenard P Lipscomb. While they were quiet, they had a very poor power to weight ratio, making the subs with them slower compared to ones with geared turbines.

Natural Circulation reactors? Built and put to sea by the US Navy as the S5G in the USS Narwhal, and the S8G in the Ohio SSBNs. Reason why they don't see much widespread use is because they're very power inefficient; making them unsuited for 33+ knot fast attacks that Rickover preferred.

40 inch torpedoes? I hate to break it to you but there's nothing remotely uber about them, except for the sheer size. The USN actually planned for the Seawolves to put to sea with 30 inch torpedoes weighing 3 times as much as the 21 inch Mark 48 that equipped our subs at the time. Eventually, they went to sea with 26" tubes that were lined down to shoot 21" torpedoes; the 26" torpedoes were never developed due to budget reasons.

I spent a lot of time doing the rough math on those torpedoes; their density is about the same as that of the Mark 48 ADCAP; it's just that with a 40 inch diameter tube; it's a lot bigger. And as for their absurdly long ranges? That's realistic too, because marine hydrodynamics means that a short fat shape like the 40 inch torpedo is more hydrodynamically efficient than a long and thin shape like the 21 inch torpedo; meaning it doesn't take as much horsepower per pound to propel it through the water. And you can put all that extra volume to use like carrying lots of fuel, or a proportionately bigger warhead.

Igo-26? It exists in real life. Go google SS-26 STONE or Iskander. Skimmer and me eyeballed the missile and calculated the likely length that would be needed for a booster and to provide buoyancy for launch. End result was a torpedo room about 100~ feet long.

Sea Stallion? I did the math regarding propellant ISP of solid rocket motors in the 1980s and found that the propellant back then was sufficiently energetic to toss a heavyweight torpedo to about 70-100 nautical miles.

F-106H? There was a proposal at one time to redesign the F-106 to carry a 40 inch diameter antenna (ASG-18). The electronics in the H are basically what the Soviet MiG-31 had in the 1980s; with three MiGs being able to datalink together and patrol hundreds of square kilometers of airspace.

Multistatic/bistatic radars which can detect stealth aircraft? Russians have deployed those for a while in real life.

Or, to put it electronically, I'm trying to play Sid Meier's Civilisation, Shep's trying to play Command & Conquer/Red Alert.

Shut the fuck up, Arik.

If I was playing this STGOD like C&C:RA, then I wouldn't have fucking bought Harpoon: Commanders Edition and then modified the database to help me wargame my scenarios through to get an idea of what works and what doesn't.

It's not my fault that you and the MESS simply decided to play the game like a bunch of bumbling retards who bought shiny toys and thought that they would be the best and would allow you to crush anyone who went to war with you decisively.

Carrier battlegroups are not some super magic invincible weapon that cannot be destroyed. They are incredibly vunerable if you know how to attack them right.

What? You expected to simply parade your carriers up and down my coastline and bomb me with impunity and shoot down any attack that I put forth?

I'm so sorry that I put actual fucking thought into how to defeat the kinds of weapons systems that I guessed that you would be deploying in this game.

When I decided on using submarines to attack your carriers; I had to make some decisions on how to set them up.

Because I recognized early on that the primary threat to a submarine is another submarine; I had to develop some sort of method to neutralize the SSN screen that would be escorting your carrier groups; and that drove the rest of my design process.

But of course, your strategic and tactical thought process went something like:

"Oh hey, lets get some Ford Class CVNs and a few squadrons of F-22s; If one of us ever goes to war with Shep, the others in the MESS will all send their carriers and squadrons of F-22s over too, and we'll swamp him with Carriers and Raptors."

Well, he may try and inflict enough casualties to make people clamor for peace. The loss of these carriers will have a different effect, however: those are the pride of MESS navies, and people will get pissed, rather than resigned.

Did IQs drop sharply while I was away at Aberdeen Proving Ground today?

With each carrier or aircraft that's damaged or destroyed; the balance of power shifts away from the MESS and in favor of the IRT, CSR, and especially Japanistan, who have undamaged navies and airforces.

Does the MESS really want to push home this war to the finish and risk seeing it's strategic advantage utterly destroyed, leaving them impotent after crippling losses in invading Shepistan to a surprise CSR or Japanistani sneak attack?

Jesus. Am I the only one in this game who thinks several steps ahead?

[Beowulf]

Ah, so you apparently missed the fact that we still bought SSNs in huge numbers. I have 34 Seawolf class subs alone. There's another 11 of them in other MESS navies. Recognizing that you might try some sort of rocket launch torpedo-jitsu, I made sure to include the fact that Sea Lances were developed.

You've assumed stupidity on the part of the combatant commanders, going "Oh! CVBGs! They'll be operating alone, without any other other several hundred MESS ships, clearing the water of SSANs!" As opposed to the realistic method of the aforementioned mass of SSNs combing the area for your damned large subs, along with surface ships busily pinging away.

Sure, bistatic radars can detect stealth aircraft, but can they track them? You'd need a heavily multi-static radar set to pick up the returns, since the location the returns would be going would be constantly changing based on the fact the stealth aircraft is moving, and would change as a result of the stealth aircraft maneuvering as well.