School shooting/massacre in Finland

[Tiriol]

I am uncertain if this should belong to N&P or to Off-Topic; however, since it is news, I opted to post it here. Should it be a wrong choice, I trust in our good moderators to put this thread into its place.

Helsingin Sanomat reports about a school shooting in a Finnish town named Kauhajoki; likely to be updated without further notice.

BREAKING NEWS: School shooting in Kauhajoki - Nine dead, many injured
Man enters school armed with automatic pistol and opens fire on class of adult students before turning gun on himself


Nine people, all students, have been killed in a shooting incident at a vocational school in Kauhajoki in Western Finland. Several others have been injured.
Details are still sketchy, but apparently a 22-year-old man dressed in black and wearing a ski-mask entered the school carrying a large bag, and opened fire on students at around 11 a.m. on Tuesday morning.
An eyewitness spoke of many rounds of automatic fire in a ground-floor classroom containing adult students taking an exam.
Police at the scene immediately reported several fatalities, but the true death-toll was only made clear some hours after the incident.

The building has been evacuated, and the gunman - thought to have acted alone - has apparently shot himself, and is believed to have been rushed to hospital in Tampere with serious head injuries.
Initial reports said he was among the dead, but this was later denied.

Around 150 students and staff-members were in the building at the time.
Part of the school caught fire, for as yet unknown reasons, but firefighters put the blaze out.

The tragic incident is bound to reopen wounds from last November's hugely traumatic shooting at Jokela High School, when a deranged youth killed eight before turning his gun on himself.

In a grim reminder of what happened in Jokela in November last year, reports are already surfacing of videos on YouTube allegedly depicting a young man from Kauhajoki firing pistols at a shooting range.
As is now all too well known, a similar connection was made with the young man who opened fire at Jokela High School.

Members of the Finnish government have met in special session to assess the situation. The Finnish Broadcasting Company YLE reports that Education Minister Sari Sarkomaa, Minister of the Interior Anne Holmlund, and Minister of Health and Social Services Paula Risikko are meeting to discuss the shooting in Kauhajoki. The chairs of the various parliamentary groups as well as police and other officials are also be present.
The college in Kauhajoki - part of the campus of the Seinäjoki Vocational Training Centre - has now been cordoned off, and media representatives are being kept some 200 metres from the site of the shooting.
The Finnish Broadcasting Company YLE has also reported that police are currently investigating whether there might be a bomb planted in another building close to the vocational school. It was thought that the gunman may have been carrying explosives as well as the small-calibre automatic pistol he used to shoot his victims.
A number of ambulances and other emergency vehicles were still parked outside the school at 14:20 on Tuesday afternoon.

We shall naturally update the fast-moving story as more news arrives.

YLE News reporting about the same incident.

Nine Fatalities at Kauhajoki School of Hospitality
Published 23.09.2008, 11.34 (updated 23.09.2008, 15.25)

Police confirm that nine students are dead and two students are wounded after a student opened fire at the Kauhajoki School of Hospitality. All students have been evacuated from the school and a fire in the building is being extinguished. Hospital sources say the shooter has been taken into hospital care after shooting himself.

One injured victim is being treated in Seinäjoki.

The shooter, a student at the school, turned the gun on himself and is in seriously condition at Tampere University Hospital.

According to Interior Minister Anne Holmlund, the suspected perpetrator
posted several videos in recent weeks on YouTube showing himself firing a pistol, which he bought last month. He was questioned by police concerning the videos on Monday, but no further steps were deemed necessary.

The tabloid newspaper Iltalehti says that police believe there may be a bomb in the building.

Shooting Began at 11.00

The school principal Tapio Varmola says the shooter opened fire on a group of students that were taking a test in class around 11 a.m. The shooter may also have been carrying explosives. Some 150 students were on schoool premises at the time of the shooting.

Shooter Wore Ski Mask

The shooter is believed to be a 22-year-old student of the vocational school.

Jukka Forsberg, a maintenance worker at the school, told YLE that several people have sustained injuries. According to Forsber, a man with a ski mask went into the building with a large bag. Soon after, the worker heard shots fired.

Student witnesses say the shooter was seen moving around the school with a handgun.

Shooter Warning on You Tube?

Several videos have been discovered on You Tube in which a young man who says his home town is Kauhajoki is pictured shooting pistols at a shooting range. The approximately one-and-a half minute videos were added to You Tube five days ago.

The case so far eerily resembles a school shooting which occurred last November, in which a troubled 18-year-old student opened fire and killed eight people at his high school before killing himself in the town of Jokela in southern Finland.

The Kauhajoki School of Hospitality is one of eleven campuses of the Seinäjoki Vocational Education Centre.

Government Convenes in Special Session

Education Minister Sari Sarkomaa, Interior Minister Anne Holmlund and Minister of Health and Social Services Paula Risikko are meeting to discuss the shooting in Kauhajoki. The chairs of the parliamentary groups as well as police officials will also be present in the meeting.

The investigation is being handled by the National Bureau of Investigation.

YLE

[Tiriol]

BBC report about the shooting; contains mobile phone video footage.

Finland school gunman kills nine

At least nine people have been killed and two others wounded in a shooting spree at a college in the town of Kauhajoki in western Finland.

Police said the gunman, thought to be a 20-year-old student, then shot himself, although his condition is now unclear.

The gunmen reportedly posted a video of himself on the internet last week firing a gun.

Police invited him to an interview but did not have enough evidence to revoke his licence, officials said.

Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen said this was a "tragic day" for Finland.

In 2007 eight people died in another school attack. Finland has one of the world's highest gun ownership rates.

Ski mask

Tuesday's shootings in Kauhajoki, some 330km (205 miles) north of the capital, Helsinki, began just before 1100 local time (0800 GMT).

An estimated 200 students were thought to be in the college buildings at the time.

A BBC correspondent in Finland said a gunman dressed in black was seen at the school, apparently carrying an automatic weapon.

A man with a ski mask was seen entering the building with a large bag, national broadcaster YLE reported. Shots were fired soon afterwards, and reports emerged that several people were seriously wounded.

School caretaker Jukka Forsberg told Finnish TV: "Within a short space of time I heard several dozen rounds of shots, in other words it was an automatic pistol.

"I saw some female students who were wailing and moaning and one managed to escape out of the back door."

Police ordered an evacuation and called for reinforcements as fires blazed in the building and local reports said Finland's heavy weapons squad was heading to Kauhajoki.

The gunman remained at large within the college grounds for some time before police apparently restrained and disarmed him.

"I just heard from the police radio that the shooter has been caught. He no longer has a gun," a police spokesman told the AFP news agency.

But hospital sources and the mayor of the town were later quoted as saying the attacker had turned his gun on himself. There was no confirmation of his condition.

In last year's incident, the gunman, Pekka-Eric Auvinen, posted a video on YouTube as a macabre preview of his attack, pledging to "eliminate" those he saw as "unfit".

In the wake of that attack, Finland's government pledged to raise the minimum age for buying guns.

But the country has a long tradition of hunting and weapons-bearing, with about 1.6 million firearms in private hands, the Associated Press reports.

[Azazal]

CNN just posted that the gunman had been questioned by the police yesterday, it's a new headline flash no further details at the moment

[Edi]

CNN just posted that the gunman had been questioned by the police yesterday, it's a new headline flash no further details at the moment

True. He had been questioned about the viedoes he posted on YouTube where he had filmed himself target shooting. However, there is and was nothing illegal about those videos in and of themselves. They are not like the ones Pekka-Eric Auvinen put on YouTube last year before the Jokela shootings. Apparently this guy, Saari, had made a separate package with other videos that he posted online just before the shooting. Those videos were threatening and if they had been seen yesterday, he'd have been taken into custody.

And the fucker wasn't even competent enough to kill himself properly.

[Tiriol]

According to news report of YLE, at least 11 are dead (also including the shooter, who died this afternoon in the hospital).

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

CNN just posted that the gunman had been questioned by the police yesterday, it's a new headline flash no further details at the moment

True. He had been questioned about the viedoes he posted on YouTube where he had filmed himself target shooting. However, there is and was nothing illegal about those videos in and of themselves. They are not like the ones Pekka-Eric Auvinen put on YouTube last year before the Jokela shootings. Apparently this guy, Saari, had made a separate package with other videos that he posted online just before the shooting. Those videos were threatening and if they had been seen yesterday, he'd have been taken into custody.

And the fucker wasn't even competent enough to kill himself properly.

Iltasanomat has posted an accusing headline at their site regarding why Saari's gun permit wasn't cancelled during the questioning regarding the Youtube videos of him shooting target practice. Fucking tabloids.

It fucking pains me to see that this guy is getting exactly what he most likely wanted (even though he isn't around to enjoy it anymore), a fuckload of attention. Goddamn incompetent fuckwad too much of a coward to just off himself, instead going after a school and acting like a copycat. Most likely he wanted to wait till anniversary of the Jokela massacre to conduct his killing, but got spooked to do it early since the Police questioned him.

[Edi]

That's probable. I didn't much like the tone of the MTV3 news interview of Prime Minister Vanhanen either, all too eager to assign blame and salivating over possible minister resignations and so forth when they'd have more facts at their disposal just by reading the goddamn HS news headlines and the articles. Took all of five minutes to skim through the lot of them for relevant stuff.

We'll see what happens, but I predict a markedly tightened regulations on handguns. Two school massacres inside a year, with 9 and 10 victims respectively in a country this small is going to do that. I don't really care personally if they do tighten the regulations, as most regular people here have no business both owning handguns and storing them outside controlled facilities. Long guns used for hunting are a different matter entirely. The current system works very well for them already.

[Lord Revan]

while restricting the possibility of people like these gaining weapons isn't bad, tbh I'd hope they'd at least try to find out why they did what they did to avoid something like this happening in the future (if possible of course).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Wasn't there a similar incident in Finland a year or so ago? WIth similar circumstances? I am not sure if I mixed up the country though.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

That's probable. I didn't much like the tone of the MTV3 news interview of Prime Minister Vanhanen either, all too eager to assign blame and salivating over possible minister resignations and so forth when they'd have more facts at their disposal just by reading the goddamn HS news headlines and the articles. Took all of five minutes to skim through the lot of them for relevant stuff.

We'll see what happens, but I predict a markedly tightened regulations on handguns. Two school massacres inside a year, with 9 and 10 victims respectively in a country this small is going to do that. I don't really care personally if they do tighten the regulations, as most regular people here have no business both owning handguns and storing them outside controlled facilities. Long guns used for hunting are a different matter entirely. The current system works very well for them already.

I try to avoid listening or reading much of anything Vanhanen says if at all possible. Especially when it comes to him taking on matters such as this. The blame gets thrown around wantonly, without much aim or discretion nor the use of common sense. As long as SOMEONE or something can be blamed, all is well.

Personally, I don't intend or want to get into a lengthy argument regarding private ownership of handguns here. I did that on Iltalehti message boards. I have my own views regarding the matter and have owned handguns for years myself, actively participating in IPSC and SRA. Banning them doesn't address the problem, that drives young people into doing shit like this. As the Myyrmanni bombing proved rather well, kids don't need guns to kill people if they really want to.

What comes to controlled facilities, arranging and suitably putting into effect such a system would be difficult not to mention it would expose a much larger number of weapons and ammunition to criminals determined to get their hands on them. Nor am I too eager to give up the equipment I've spent thousands of euros on to someone or someplace where I can't control how the hardware is stored or cared for.

[Lord Revan]

Wasn't there a similar incident in Finland a year or so ago? WIth similar circumstances? I am not sure if I mixed up the country though.

yes in Jokela, different person though as both killers seem to have shot themselves.

[Tiriol]

Wasn't there a similar incident in Finland a year or so ago? WIth similar circumstances? I am not sure if I mixed up the country though.

Yes; if I may refer to the articles posted in OP:

The tragic incident is bound to reopen wounds from last November's hugely traumatic shooting at Jokela High School, when a deranged youth killed eight before turning his gun on himself.

In a grim reminder of what happened in Jokela in November last year, reports are already surfacing of videos on YouTube allegedly depicting a young man from Kauhajoki firing pistols at a shooting range.
As is now all too well known, a similar connection was made with the young man who opened fire at Jokela High School.

The case so far eerily resembles a school shooting which occurred last November, in which a troubled 18-year-old student opened fire and killed eight people at his high school before killing himself in the town of Jokela in southern Finland.

[Edi]

I try to avoid listening or reading much of anything Vanhanen says if at all possible. Especially when it comes to him taking on matters such as this. The blame gets thrown around wantonly, without much aim or discretion nor the use of common sense. As long as SOMEONE or something can be blamed, all is well.

Oh, sorry, my fuckup. Vanhanen was very good, it was the reporters who were acting like jackals. Vanhanen said that before any blame gets assigned, things need to be investigated first. In effect, trying to calm the lynch mob.

Personally, I don't intend or want to get into a lengthy argument regarding private ownership of handguns here. I did that on Iltalehti message boards.

*shudder*

Braver man than I am, I can't stand the stupidity on the tabloid boards, so I don't read them.

I have my own views regarding the matter and have owned handguns for years myself, actively participating in IPSC and SRA. Banning them doesn't address the problem, that drives young people into doing shit like this. As the Myyrmanni bombing proved rather well, kids don't need guns to kill people if they really want to.

True. The roots of the problem are elsewhere, but handguns make it easier to kill many people. What I said was my opinion, but it would likely change somewhat with regard to the specifics. What they can do is tighten the regulations enough to make it a big fucking pain in the ass to get them. Easiest to do it that way, so that's how I expect the enforcement to happen in the future.

What comes to controlled facilities, arranging and suitably putting into effect such a system would be difficult not to mention it would expose a much larger number of weapons and ammunition to criminals determined to get their hands on them. Nor am I too eager to give up the equipment I've spent thousands of euros on to someone or someplace where I can't control how the hardware is stored or cared for.

There is that, and it's an argument I did not much think of. I suspect we'll have occasion to revisit this conversation later when we see the fallout in the next few days/weeks.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

Oh, sorry, my fuckup. Vanhanen was very good, it was the reporters who were acting like jackals. Vanhanen said that before any blame gets assigned, things need to be investigated first. In effect, trying to calm the lynch mob.

Ah, in that case I acted in haste as well. My personal distaste of Vanhanen made me mentally read that part of your post as "Vanhanen spews bullshit again". I don't think there's much to be done to calm the lynch mob. The ignorant are driving themselves forward in a feeding frenzy, in quite a hurry to assign blame wherever they belive the blame should be laid.

*shudder*

Braver man than I am, I can't stand the stupidity on the tabloid boards, so I don't read them.

Well, my patience ran short in about 30 minutes on the Iltalehti boards. There WAS some intelligent discussion at the Iltasanomat discussion about the subject at first, but when the lynch mob morons got there, it degraded into monkeys throwing shit around in a small room very quick.

True. The roots of the problem are elsewhere, but handguns make it easier to kill many people. What I said was my opinion, but it would likely change somewhat with regard to the specifics. What they can do is tighten the regulations enough to make it a big fucking pain in the ass to get them. Easiest to do it that way, so that's how I expect the enforcement to happen in the future.

I agree that handguns do make it easier. However I also think that simply outright banning them isn't going to work. Making it much more difficult to acquire permits might work, but outright banning them isn't going to work. Nor can the Government really afford to piss off the 600,000 people who happen to own 1.6 million legal guns in Finland. A politician (especially ours) always consider their own ass first, they'd be far more fucking retarded than I've believed they are if they pissed off such a large block of voters.

There is that, and it's an argument I did not much think of. I suspect we'll have occasion to revisit this conversation later when we see the fallout in the next few days/weeks.

Believe me, I've had this discussion before. Secure facilities where to store all privately owned guns might seem good on paper, and without much consideration given to the execution. When you start thinking about it, and the 1.6 million guns in private ownership and the 600,000 owners of those guns all over the country, you get my point.

Ofcourse, the Gov can make all privately owned guns illegal. Then we'll simply have 1.6 million illegal, un-registered firearms circling around the country instead of 1.6 million legal, registered firearms.

[Tiriol]

According to newspaper Helsingin Sanomat and the tabloids Iltalehti and Iltasanomat, the killer has apparently planned something atrocious like this since 2002. Furthermore, the investigators have found notes the man left behind, where he apparently expresses his hatred for humanity and the human race.

A direct quote from the notes: "The answer is Walther." The killer's weapon of choice was Walther P22 -pistol.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

According to newspaper Helsingin Sanomat and the tabloids Iltalehti and Iltasanomat, the killer has apparently planned something atrocious like this since 2002. Furthermore, the investigators have found notes the man left behind, where he apparently expresses his hatred for humanity and the human race.

A direct quote from the notes: "The answer is Walther." The killer's weapon of choice was Walther P22 -pistol.

Yeah, not at all a copycat of Auvinen... geez.

I also happen to own a Walther P22, my first firearm, which I've been trying to get rid of for a while. To be quite frank, a piece of shit. Difficult to clean, disassemble and put back together. Worthless as any kind of decent target practice .22 cal and way too small to fit an adult hand with any kind of comfort. What a surprise that both Auvinen and Saari bought weapons, that are of practically zero use as actual target practice guns. Auvinen's Sig Sauer Mosquito had much of the same problems as the P22.

[His Divine Shadow]

Seems to me maybe we should raise the age limit on pistols and revolvers to 25 and increase demands on new shooters to prove they are active in a club as well as sane, if you have to say spend 6 months shooting at a club with other shooters and the club has to vouch for you, then it'd be alot harder for your beginner who just wants a gun.

It's clearly with the new shooters that we have got this issue, people that have owned guns for years have obviously "proven" themselves so it would get easier to get guns as you progress (you do tend to trade in and buy new ones, specialize one gun for a certain application and so forth). Not that I think it'd really stop anyone determined but atleast it wouldn't occur with a legally acquired gun.

The central storage Vanhanen keeps harping about is just ridiculous by the way, gun ranges are way out in nowhere, couple of sheds in the the forrest describes your average range. And what of when you visit other ranges for matches? I just went 100km north to Pietasaari last week for an SRA match. I'll keep my bolted down 150kg gun safe thanks.
The current system requires you to get a safe after 5 guns, reduce it to require a safe for any gun, that way almost every gun in the country will be safely locked up. It's much safe to have guns spread out in many safes instead of centrally located, which would be a huge target and expensive to make remotely secure.

[Darth Wong]

According to newspaper Helsingin Sanomat and the tabloids Iltalehti and Iltasanomat, the killer has apparently planned something atrocious like this since 2002. Furthermore, the investigators have found notes the man left behind, where he apparently expresses his hatred for humanity and the human race.

A direct quote from the notes: "The answer is Walther." The killer's weapon of choice was Walther P22 -pistol.

I don't think "planned" is the right word. An act like this requires almost no planning; you simply wander in the front door and start shooting people. The problem is that his psychological problems have obviously been festering since 2002, and his desire to commit an act like this has been building over that time.

[Edi]

Seems to me maybe we should raise the age limit on pistols and revolvers to 25 and increase demands on new shooters to prove they are active in a club as well as sane, if you have to say spend 6 months shooting at a club with other shooters and the club has to vouch for you, then it'd be alot harder for your beginner who just wants a gun.

It's clearly with the new shooters that we have got this issue, people that have owned guns for years have obviously "proven" themselves so it would get easier to get guns as you progress (you do tend to trade in and buy new ones, specialize one gun for a certain application and so forth). Not that I think it'd really stop anyone determined but atleast it wouldn't occur with a legally acquired gun.

The central storage Vanhanen keeps harping about is just ridiculous by the way, gun ranges are way out in nowhere, couple of sheds in the the forrest describes your average range. And what of when you visit other ranges for matches? I just went 100km north to Pietasaari last week for an SRA match. I'll keep my bolted down 150kg gun safe thanks.
The current system requires you to get a safe after 5 guns, reduce it to require a safe for any gun, that way almost every gun in the country will be safely locked up. It's much safe to have guns spread out in many safes instead of centrally located, which would be a huge target and expensive to make remotely secure.

Best proposal I've seen so far.