T:SCC Season 2 Episode 3: "The Mousetrap"

[Singular Intellect]

T3 is not canon.

Could you substantiate this assertion?

[Thanas]

Sure. Josh Friedman, the creator of the show:

IGN TV: Are you working within the continuity of the Terminator movies, specifically Terminator 3?

Friedman: We're gonna go off on our own. I think the thing about T3 is, obviously there was just no Sarah Connor and that's something the fans were never happy with[...]So I think that my feeling was this TV series to me sort of serves as the third act to that trilogy - what could have happened had we followed that after T2. So I almost think of this as T3. To me it takes the place of T3.

The interview can be found on IGN.

[Strider]

T3 is not canon.

I've been assuming that T3 was a scenario that happened in canon, but was then completely erased by the effects of either the Resistance or Skynet sending soldiers back in time before T3. A simple version would be that Cromartie was sent back in time as a response to T3, and then Cameron was sent back as a response to Cromartie. This works if we believe John Connor only barely survived Cromartie in the Cameron-less timeline, and sent Cameron back to ensure that Skynet sending one extra Terminator wouldn't get him killed off completely. In an alternate scenario, Cameron being sent back put the apocalypse itself in very serious danger of not happening when she was added to the T3 timeline. 'After', Skynet sent back Cromartie to move the situation in the past out of the danger zone, but inadvertently caused the whole "jump to the future" incident, changing everything.

In any case, T3 could easily be canon and never 'actually' happen. As a more practical matter, we need to realize that canon in a movie is not always canon in a show (example: Stargate: SG1). It could easily be that movie canon has Arnold weighing in at 500 lbs and show canon would have Cameron only be about 140 or so.

[Strider]

Doh, didn't see that last post Thanas. My excessively complicated pet theory still works in my head tho

[Thanas]

The ratings are in and everybody who thought "Heroes" would slaughter this show are...dead wrong.

T:SCC actually gained 300.000 viewers this week, driving the rating up from 5.49 to 5.81, despite going up against two episodes at the same time. Incidentally, this is about the number Heroes lost from last season. Wow. We'll see if this is a fluke or not.

If there is any conclusion I would wager to make, it is that the show has a pretty steady fan following at this time. Let's see if this keeps up.

Anyone else care to speculate?

[Thanas]

[In any case, T3 could easily be canon and never 'actually' happen. As a more practical matter, we need to realize that canon in a movie is not always canon in a show (example: Stargate: SG1). It could easily be that movie canon has Arnold weighing in at 500 lbs and show canon would have Cameron only be about 140 or so.

Arnold weighing in at 500lbs makes admittedly no sense within the movie's continuity as well - I do not know of any bike that can handle that weight, plus a child and still go topspeed.

[eyexist]

The ratings are in and everybody who thought "Heroes" would slaughter this show are...dead wrong.

T:SCC actually gained 300.000 viewers this week, driving the rating up from 5.49 to 5.81, despite going up against two episodes at the same time. Incidentally, this is about the number Heroes lost from last season. Wow. We'll see if this is a fluke or not.

If there is any conclusion I would wager to make, it is that the show has a pretty steady fan following at this time. Let's see if this keeps up.

Anyone else care to speculate?

A lot of it probably has to do with DVD sales. I've loaned my Season 1 DVD out to six friends and now all six are hooked and are keeping up with Season 2.

[Shroom Man 777]

The T-850s are up-armored to be plasma-weapon resistant.

[Thanas]

A lot of it probably has to do with DVD sales. I've loaned my Season 1 DVD out to six friends and now all six are hooked and are keeping up with Season 2.

That may be a reason - fans converting other people. The best way for a show to gain loyal viewers. I hope next weeks episode will be following that trend. If T:SCC can get a strong demo average and strong following along with a decent boost by the upcoming movie (which will suck btw), we might get a third season.

The T-850s are up-armored to be plasma-weapon resistant.

Which is even more idiotic, considering the T-X - armed with a plasma weapon - is way superior in combat. Also, no car could have handled a quarter ton person sitting in the drivers seat and do the kind of maneuvers it made in the movie. Furthermore, an up-armored robot...with a bomb as power cell. Yeah, that is the way to go.

[eyexist]

A lot of it probably has to do with DVD sales. I've loaned my Season 1 DVD out to six friends and now all six are hooked and are keeping up with Season 2.

That may be a reason - fans converting other people. The best way for a show to gain loyal viewers. I hope next weeks episode will be following that trend. If T:SCC can get a strong demo average and strong following along with a decent boost by the upcoming movie (which will suck btw), we might get a third season.

One of my friends brought up a something interesting. Going back to one of the main characters being killed of this season - what if it is Summer? My friend mentioned that one of the things that have drastically changed a series in the past was when a main character was pregnant. In some instances the show was rewritten to accommodate for the change, but unless they do a story arc where, say most of Cameron's body is destroyed and they spend a full season trying to put her back together the only other alternative would be to write her off the show.

Not that I'm looking forward to it happening, of course.

[Shroom Man 777]

Which is even more idiotic, considering the T-X - armed with a plasma weapon - is way superior in combat. Also, no car could have handled a quarter ton person sitting in the drivers seat and do the kind of maneuvers it made in the movie. Furthermore, an up-armored robot...with a bomb as power cell. Yeah, that is the way to go.

Well, if the T-850 was meant to have a volatile power plant that allows it to act as a kamikaze when it is destroyed after attacking Resistance strongholds, up-armoring does make sense to prevent it from being destroyed prematurely.

Hell, did the T-850 even say that it couldn't self-terminate? It self-terminated itself pretty well - which lends credence to that suicide bomber theory thing.

T-3 was a dumb movie.

[Thanas]

One of my friends brought up a something interesting. Going back to one of the main characters being killed of this season - what if it is Summer? My friend mentioned that one of the things that have drastically changed a series in the past was when a main character was pregnant. In some instances the show was rewritten to accommodate for the change, but unless they do a story arc where, say most of Cameron's body is destroyed and they spend a full season trying to put her back together the only other alternative would be to write her off the show.

Not that I'm looking forward to it happening, of course.

Eh? Where does this pregnancy talk come from? Besides, the producers and the writers love her - Josh Friedman wrote the part for her.

Well, if the T-850 was meant to have a volatile power plant that allows it to act as a kamikaze when it is destroyed after attacking Resistance strongholds, up-armoring does make sense to prevent it from being destroyed prematurely.

Hell, did the T-850 even say that it couldn't self-terminate? It self-terminated itself pretty well - which lends credence to that suicide bomber theory thing.

Which still is quite stupid - infiltrator units are very costly. If a Terminator had found a rebel base, the best course of action would be to call in for backup and let the HKs eliminate them.

If the T-850 has already infiltrated a resistance base, it does not need the armour to blow up. And Armour before a succesful infiltration only decreases the chances of making a succesful infiltraition...so that makes even less sense.

[NecronLord]

I'm not really seeing a problem with Arnie's weight in T-3. For a start, he's literally wedged into a wall in that scene. Second, just because a fireman can't casually lift him as expected, doesn't mean he couldn't do so under ideal conditions with a second attempt; it just means he's significantly heavier than he looks. Just like this terminator is.

[Peptuck]

A lot of it probably has to do with DVD sales. I've loaned my Season 1 DVD out to six friends and now all six are hooked and are keeping up with Season 2.

That may be a reason - fans converting other people. The best way for a show to gain loyal viewers. I hope next weeks episode will be following that trend. If T:SCC can get a strong demo average and strong following along with a decent boost by the upcoming movie (which will suck btw), we might get a third season.

One of my friends brought up a something interesting. Going back to one of the main characters being killed of this season - what if it is Summer? My friend mentioned that one of the things that have drastically changed a series in the past was when a main character was pregnant. In some instances the show was rewritten to accommodate for the change, but unless they do a story arc where, say most of Cameron's body is destroyed and they spend a full season trying to put her back together the only other alternative would be to write her off the show.

Not that I'm looking forward to it happening, of course.

I doubt it, as she is one of the three leads in the series. Killing her would royally enrage a good portion of the fanbase. I'm leaning much more toward Derek, Ellisson, or Cromartie - especially the latter two, as Weaver looks like she's planning to put them on an intercept course.

Of course, I can only hope they also knock off Riley at some point, or at least beat the crap out of her. She's probably one of the more annoying characters I've encountered, to the point where I was fast forwarding through all the scenes with her and John, including ones I hadn't seen before. I don't think I've ever felt quite so much antipathy for a minor character before.

[Faqa]

Ahhhhh.... that was just what I needed after the idiotic horror that was the Heroes premiere. Good, solid episode.

John and Riley have begun to become believable friends. At least he's not acting like a stiff asshole towards her. I hope something does come up as to why she befriended him to begin with, because that's a pretty big question at the moment. Regardless, I like this plotline, and don't get why everyone hates Riley. John was just forced to kill a man a week or two ago, see Cameron turn on him(whatever Cameron may 'feel', John had clearly begun to humanize and romanticize her. Not surprising, given his childhood experience with Uncle Bob) ), and then have to rip her brain out. A re-confirmation to him that this humanization was utterly false. It may well have made him realize how empty his life was, and Riley fills that void. Of COURSE he's going to be irrational and stupid about preserving that.

The only big problem I had here was the fact that John shook off Cameron WAY too fast. She IS a Terminator, and all. Although granted there was no real way to chase him without making a public disturbance, which she didn't want. She did clearly manage to trace him, though, so I am puzzled as to why she lost him when he left again.

As for the Mousetrap itself, I bow to the writers for having actual brains as opposed to cliche-spewing machines. Cromartie's plot showed an effective understanding of the humans he faced and a focus on his real target.

My only gripe is that he didn't attempt to seperate Cameron from John as well. It was foolish of him to suppose that he'd be able to shoot John without her noticing. If Cameron HAD been there, she would likely have noticed him faster than John did. Perhaps he was relying on his presumed anonymity? But if his slaughter of the SWAT team made the news as the TV implied this ep, assuming his anonymity would also be foolish.

Ah, well. It gave John a chance to think on his feet. That water trick was pretty smart, and I did not see it coming. Bravo again to the writers.

Intelligence in sci-fi TV writing. Now that's a word combo I never thought to see again.

*GLARES VERY HARD at Tim Kring*

[weemadando]

It could also be that Vick was not a combat chassis, but an infiltrator one, lighter design, lighter alloys... You know, so he doesn't break every slat in a bed when he climbs in.

Given that we see Cameron making physically impossible lifts in this episode (leverage people!), we have to assume that her weight is sufficient disproportionate to allow her to do such things without tipping over.

[Drooling Iguana]

As for the T3 weight issue, my guess is that the T3 terminator was built later in the war when things had really started to go south for Skynet. It no longer had sufficient supplies of the lightweight alloys that it used to make the T1/T2 terminators and had to make do with inferior materials that needed substantially greater mass to achieve the same durability. The powercell was probably the same situation; jury-rigged together since Skynet was no longer capable of building the type used in the earlier models.

[Ghost Rider]

The ratings are in and everybody who thought "Heroes" would slaughter this show are...dead wrong.

T:SCC actually gained 300.000 viewers this week, driving the rating up from 5.49 to 5.81, despite going up against two episodes at the same time. Incidentally, this is about the number Heroes lost from last season. Wow. We'll see if this is a fluke or not.

If there is any conclusion I would wager to make, it is that the show has a pretty steady fan following at this time. Let's see if this keeps up.

Anyone else care to speculate?

I say it is a combination of Heroes being rather lackluster, and Terminator is still maintaining it's general feel. So fans do not feel the need to migrate, and a few others try because they are turned off by the initial offering of Heroes.

[Peptuck]

As for the T3 weight issue, my guess is that the T3 terminator was built later in the war when things had really started to go south for Skynet. It no longer had sufficient supplies of the lightweight alloys that it used to make the T1/T2 terminators and had to make do with inferior materials that needed substantially greater mass to achieve the same durability. The powercell was probably the same situation; jury-rigged together since Skynet was no longer capable of building the type used in the earlier models.

The supply issue holds up in SCC; Cameron points out in "Heavy Metal" that coltan is very rare in the future, which is why SkyNet had Carter stockpiling it, and why SkyNet was using scavenged jet engines to power the chronoporter instead of building ones itself.

[Strider]

Ah, well. It gave John a chance to think on his feet. That water trick was pretty smart, and I did not see it coming. Bravo again to the writers.

Actually, that brings to mind how STUPID Cromartie was to set the pier as the meeting spot. He should know his own weaknesses and not set himself up into situations where he'll get burned.

[Anguirus]

^ Actually, it boxed in John's options i.e. where to run and it almost killed him. If Cromartie had gotten a better grip on him when they fell, John would have drowned.

[Thanas]

Given that we see Cameron making physically impossible lifts in this episode (leverage people!), we have to assume that her weight is sufficient disproportionate to allow her to do such things without tipping over.

Well, we do not really know how much that box weighed so I would be very careful to make speculations based on that.

The only big problem I had here was the fact that John shook off Cameron WAY too fast. She IS a Terminator, and all. Although granted there was no real way to chase him without making a public disturbance, which she didn't want. She did clearly manage to trace him, though, so I am puzzled as to why she lost him when he left again.

Remember, she is still not fixed and may have been distracted. And John ran underground, so it is not like she knew where he was going. John never let her get close enough to actually follow him on his heels.

My only gripe is that he didn't attempt to seperate Cameron from John as well. It was foolish of him to suppose that he'd be able to shoot John without her noticing. If Cameron HAD been there, she would likely have noticed him faster than John did. Perhaps he was relying on his presumed anonymity? But if his slaughter of the SWAT team made the news as the TV implied this ep, assuming his anonymity would also be foolish.

That is why I assume he packed the gun - shoot John before Cameron notices/tackles him.

[weemadando]

Given that we see Cameron making physically impossible lifts in this episode (leverage people!), we have to assume that her weight is sufficient disproportionate to allow her to do such things without tipping over.

Well, we do not really know how much that box weighed so I would be very careful to make speculations based on that.

It was clearly large enough and heavy enough to require a two person lift. Not to mention that the lifting method was so completely insane as to make me call it as "improbable" if not "impossible".

Try lifting an empty cardboard box that size in the fashion which she did. Keep it out directly in front of you and your back straight. It's hard to do that with an empty box. Even for someone my size (which isn't exactly small) it's very difficult to do that kind of thing and maintain that posture. Now try it with a box with ANYTHING in it and it become a shitload harder. Try it with a box with "computer components" (which we can assume they are) it is near to impossible.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, if the T-850 was meant to have a volatile power plant that allows it to act as a kamikaze when it is destroyed after attacking Resistance strongholds, up-armoring does make sense to prevent it from being destroyed prematurely.

Hell, did the T-850 even say that it couldn't self-terminate? It self-terminated itself pretty well - which lends credence to that suicide bomber theory thing.

Which still is quite stupid - infiltrator units are very costly. If a Terminator had found a rebel base, the best course of action would be to call in for backup and let the HKs eliminate them.

Perhaps one of the reasons why the Terminators are required to infiltrate is because the Resistance might have hardware that might take out incoming HKs? We've seen HKs getting owned in the movies (via guerrilla tactics) and we know that humanity has huge stocks of pre-war weaponry. How would an HK fare against a T-80 battle tank?

If the T-850 has already infiltrated a resistance base, it does not need the armour to blow up. And Armour before a succesful infiltration only decreases the chances of making a succesful infiltraition...so that makes even less sense.

Successful infiltration is already hard, with the Resistance using the dogs. You saw T-1, the Terminator got found out and it had to start killing shit with its phased plasma cannon. We also saw how the Resistance dudes, like Kyle Reese, were shooting back at it with their own plasma weapons. Armor would make the Terminator more resistant to these weapons, meaning it would take longer to kill. If and when it does die, it can then go out with a bang - thanks to its power cell.

The Resistance was already reprogramming Terminators frequently, so Skynet would've wanted a failsafe.

In the T3 novelizations, the T-850 was already being supplanted by T-900 models and hell, there were even Resistance-reprogrammed T-1000s! The novelization even described the T-X taking on a Resistance-reprogrammed T-1000 in one of those future war scenes.

I may be wrong, though. Necron Lord, back me up mang!

[Thanas]

It was clearly large enough and heavy enough to require a two person lift. Not to mention that the lifting method was so completely insane as to make me call it as "improbable" if not "impossible".

Try lifting an empty cardboard box that size in the fashion which she did. Keep it out directly in front of you and your back straight. It's hard to do that with an empty box. Even for someone my size (which isn't exactly small) it's very difficult to do that kind of thing and maintain that posture.

The T-888 in the episode 1x04 lifted a whole box of coltan like that, easily his size. And we know that T-888s are not very much heavier than normal humans. So either someone messed up in the filming department (more likely) and we have to dismiss it as a fluke, given the numerous instances where T-888s and Cameron have acted within normal weight limits or the Terminators have insane muscle strength.