Not Digging that WH40K?

[Coyote]

I have to admit, I have seen the Warhammer 40K-verse gaining popular momentum for a long, long time now and I have to admit, after years of watching from the sidelines, I don't really like it. The thing is, I can't really explain why. Something about the WH40K setting just turns me off, nay, leaves me cold or even hostile. I don't know if it's th eover-done Goth motif or the rediculous tech or the weird magic stuff, or just the attitudes of the "ZOMFG t3h WH40K is t3h ub3rzorz!!11" fans.

But let's face it, almost ALL the fan bases of various popular sci-fi and fantasy series have that obnoxious portion of their fan base. And ordinarily, I am open to magic-tech fusion stories.

But there's something about W40K that just rubs me the wrong way. When WH40K is brought up in a "vs." scenario, I feel like WH40K should not be included as a serious contender. It's like going to a high-level state dinner between the US and China where serious concerns are going to be discussed, and the table is set with caviar and steak and things like that, and then some wiseass bring a bowl of Fruit Loops or something.

Am I the only one that feels like this, or are there others that feel that it is a silly thing?

I'm open to arguments in favor, hence I post this here rather than just as a Vent.

[Ted C]

Maybe it has to do with EVERY faction in WH40K being brutal tyrants. There aren't really any good guys in WH40K.

[andrewgpaul]

I think it might be because it's based on a game. That somehow, things like that don't 'count' as proper fiction because of that. I can see the point, that technological and political development is railroaded for the benefits of the game (like how the Imperium will always be under siege on all sides, yet will never actually fall).

Having said that, there's been about 20 years of development of the WH40K setting, and a lot of the 'fluff' isn't game-constrained - Gaunt's Ghosts, Ciaphas Cain, the Horus Heresy series, all of those have an almost free reign.

[Darth Hoth]

Well, I can certainly see why people might dislike 40k's ridiculous wank and over-the-top characterisations; some of their stuff approaches "so bad it's good" levels. At times it is almost cartoony, in much the same way as, say, the Command & Conquer series or your average RTS. Or, for the best comparison, Judge Dredd.

(The artwork for the older editions might be a large part of this as well for older fans; it is to me. Some of the old illustrations were a little . . . special.)

All the same, it does not bother me overmuch. A lot of the silliness of 40k is present in other franchises as well (Star Wars in particular even outdoes it sometimes); the Space Epic genre is hardly the province of hard sci-fi.

[Darth Raptor]

Ugly artwork depicting ugly characters in an ugly setting where there's no hope but somehow at the same time no end? WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE.

[Thanas]

I do not dislike WH40K. I just find it not very interesting and just too over the top. I mean, religious castes and chaos gods? Just not my cup of tea. I cannot suspend disbelief that far and the cartoonish look doesn't help.

[Keevan_Colton]

Judge Dredd.

I think if you go back far enough Citadel did some stuff for 2000 A.D.

[andrewgpaul]

Yup. GW did the Judge Dredd boardgame (and a mighty fine game it is, too), and a range of metal miniatures. Check out Stuff Of Legends.

Fun fact; they also at one point had official Doctor Who and Star Trek miniatures. I'd be tempted to use my Citadel Bird of Prey as a proxy for an Eldar cruiser in BFG, if only it was allowed to be played in store.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree completely. Its fucking retarded. And in any vs. scenario, especially with SW, its ludicrous fans give it a blank cheque of possibilities stilted in its favor, and a bunch of limitations so the other side doesn't splatter them like a bunch of goth morons.

[NecronLord]

I agree completely. Its fucking retarded. And in any vs. scenario, especially with SW, its ludicrous fans give it a blank cheque of possibilities stilted in its favor, and a bunch of limitations so the other side doesn't splatter them like a bunch of goth morons.

Humm? Have you been spending too much time on Spacebattles perhaps?

As for what specifically is a turn off; it's sheer absurdity, is probably the best answer. It's technically no more absurd, in terms of what its magic can do, than some of the rediculous things in Star Wars (the valley of the jedi, wankatine, sith majicks blowing up stars, the vong and their black holes, etc) or Star Trek (energy beings ho!) but with wankhammer 40k, the absurdity is right out there in the forefront, and repeated (unlike almost all of that nonsense I just named) over and over, as the whole point of the thing. Orks are there constantly, straining your suspension of disbelief, so's chaos... You're practically slapped in the face with it over and over, and it doesn't help that they never seem to make their mind up about how funny they want to be with this stuff.

Another likely answer is the sheer unremitting irrationality of the setting; which is to say, it's rational enough, in its way, but its Moorcock-inspired Chaos is distinctly not, and has all kinds of 'fate' gods and magic that's outright treated as such (even when sufficiently advanced science trumps it) by ignorant and fearful characters. I doubt this appeals to most people here - it doesn't really do it for me.

There's far more rediculous wank in Doctor Who, for example, than in 40K and SW put together, but it generally comes off as rather more adult than 40K simply because it doesn't have the same irrational, religious, mystic gloss all over it, even though it's choc to the gills with pseudoscience.


Mind you, I don't think it deserves to be excluded from the top table on grounds of seriousness; not if that top table is the one Star Wars and Trek are dining at; both of them have many many frivilous 'family friendly' elements; 40k might be childish, but I can't bring myself to call it any more childish than Star Wars, where there are serious galactic superpowers whose terrible legions of robot soldiers are depicted as bumbling incompetants, or Star Trek, who think that waving swords and charging is a valid tactic against the Wehrmacht. It may feel sillier, but I must say, it's my opinion that it's an entirely subjective difference in maturity.


The other problem, I expect, is the lower quality of its fans. Yes, the lower quality of its fans. A lot of WH40K's recent surge in popularity has come from its growing computer game prescence, and without wanting to seem snobbish, a computer game fanbase is generally not a highly critical one. The game itself is also largely played by a younger group than say, the older type of SW fans who engage in internet debates. Immaturity of a fanbase doesn't tend to help these things. That combined with gibbering 4chan morons whose idea of a 'debate' or 'discussion' is to post a picture of a space marine and write "HERESY" in forty point font, doesn't do much to make it look good.

[Dark Hellion]

What ludicrous limitations are you talking about. The ones that mean that SW doesn't just stomp on them with its 10,000+ years of generally untouched industrial development vs. a civilization that has had around 20,000 years of war eating at its industry and tech base? Limitations are present in damn near every vs. scenario, just to keep things like orbital bombardment out of ground forces vs. and the like.

The simple fact is that SW murders 40K in any straight up scenario involving space because SW can build starships in large numbers while 40K can't. Of course people want to see an actual fight, not the rehash of "in 10 years the Empire floods them with star destroyers."

Frankly, I think many SW fans who dislike 40K are just sore that they don't get the autowin/autolose that Star Destroyers normally get. Vs. a Galaxy class, an SD just rocks them, against say an ROU the SD gets owned faster than its crew can blink. But 40K ships, despite the silliness of being flying cathedrals, have the firepower and shielding to get in a slugging match, and do it will ridiculous stuff like manpower loaded guns. And for some reason this is taken as insulting, despite the inherit absurdity within SW itself.

40K has a lot of stupid wankers who are fans. But this makes a fan gap that has opposing fans work their ass of to do stupidly disparaging things to 40k (look at Eisen from SB or some of the other anti-40kers) which are just as dishonest as the 40k wankers (perhaps moreso, since they have intent instead of mindless wankery). But every series has its stupid wankers and its disparaging anti-fans.

Frankly, you don't have to like a series at all. But many people take disliking 40K and its fan base and use it as an excuse to lowball and engage in debate practices against 40K that they wouldn't use against a force like SW or ST or even Halo. And frankly, its petty and boring.

[Darth Hoth]

The simple fact is that SW murders 40K in any straight up scenario involving space because SW can build starships in large numbers while 40K can't. Of course people want to see an actual fight, not the rehash of "in 10 years the Empire floods them with star destroyers."

Apparently, if one goes by high-end estimates of the Imperium, its ships actually beat Wars in a fair fight (I am not too updated on this, but Connor says so, and I tend to trust his judgment on 40k). They still cannot match their production capacity and strategic speed, though, and some of the very most ridiculous SW wank beats the 40k wank (WotC made the Valley of the Jedi into an omniscient insta-Warpgod creator).

[NecronLord]

(WotC made the Valley of the Jedi into an omniscient insta-Warpgod creator).

Well, it's hardly a formless warpgod equivalent, per se. I've actually of a mind to do a fanfic sometime, in a sort of Dune-sequels style, of Emperor Jerec - (for he is the Kwisatz Haderach!). But ahnyway, coming back to the point, it was always absurd, 'he will be a force such as the universe has never known supernova of stars in a fleeting thought, the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper will be within his power.' I don't see any problem with the WotC version. Though their notion of some sort of force hell is laughable, and particularly doesn't jar with the game's final cutscene - dignity is one thing, but if one were actually aware that there was 'torture without respite' waiting, I rather doubt even dark jedi would provoke someone into killing them.

[Feil]

Insufficient powers of doublethink, I say. If I actually had to take 40k as a whole as presented by the creator, I wouldn't enjoy it either. I just selectively excise the bits that I think are stupid from my view of the universe, and extract the awesome from what remains.

[DesertFly]

Once upon a time I tried to like WH40k, I tried so hard, but there's just something about it that's annoying as hell.

Some of the things I find particularly egregious:
The immutability of the subject: the war can't be resolved in any way, since that would remove elements and fans from the game. So instead it just remains grim, grim, grim.
The over-the-top silly/seriousness of it all; Star Wars is also somewhat "silly", but it doesn't seem to try to take itself as seriously as 40k. Star Trek is very ridiculous sometimes, but it also portrays itself differently. It's not all about how horrible everything is, with guys with chainsaws being attacked by space orcs and space elves and space undead and demons.
The Gothic styling it's so in love with just gets old after awhile. These guys are approximately 38,000 years from now. When did they go back to using Latin? Why has humanity regressed as far as religion and society back to the middle ages?

[Darth Hoth]

Well, it's hardly a formless warpgod equivalent, per se. I've actually of a mind to do a fanfic sometime, in a sort of Dune-sequels style, of Emperor Jerec - (for he is the Kwisatz Haderach!).

Not really, no; I meant merely that he would be in their league or beyond in raw power/knowledge/wankitude.

But ahnyway, coming back to the point, it was always absurd, 'he will be a force such as the universe has never known supernova of stars in a fleeting thought, the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper will be within his power.' I don't see any problem with the WotC version.

Well, I am no physicist, but to me, "absolute omniscience" and "powers beyond imagination" is wankier than merely absurd destructive capabilities. If Dark Forces made the fully Valley-empowered Jerec out to be a god, WotC Jerec is God as in "the LORD", full stop. He is literally all-powerful and all-knowing.

Though their notion of some sort of force hell is laughable, and particularly doesn't jar with the game's final cutscene - dignity is one thing, but if one were actually aware that there was 'torture without respite' waiting, I rather doubt even dark jedi would provoke someone into killing them.

That was not their idea originally, though. Hell was established before that; I believe it was mentioned as early on as Dark Empire as the "Madness beyond death" or some such, and DEII spoke explicitly of the "Netherworld".

[NecronLord]

These guys are approximately 38,000 years from now. When did they go back to using Latin?

They didn't. 'High Gothic' isn't Latin, it's plunked into pseduo-latin for a modern audience, but it's something completely different.

Why has humanity regressed as far as religion and society back to the middle ages?

A five-to-ten thousand dark age, combined with the elite having a strong interest in keeping things that way. That said, the fuedalism and primitivism isn't completely universal.

[DesertFly]

These guys are approximately 38,000 years from now. When did they go back to using Latin?

They didn't. 'High Gothic' isn't Latin, it's plunked into pseduo-latin for a modern audience, but it's something completely different.

Why has humanity regressed as far as religion and society back to the middle ages?

A five-to-ten thousand dark age, combined with the elite having a strong interest in keeping things that way. That said, the fuedalism and primitivism isn't completely universal.

I understand that there are good reasons for those things in universe, but as someone looking at the setting from the outside I find it ridiculous.

[Azazal]

Man all the 40k hate.
Just have to say, unless you've been through almost 20 years of GW's fan base screw jobs, you're not allowed to be bitter.

[NecronLord]

Well, I am no physicist, but to me, "absolute omniscience" and "powers beyond imagination" is wankier than merely absurd destructive capabilities. If Dark Forces made the fully Valley-empowered Jerec out to be a god, WotC Jerec is God as in "the LORD", full stop. He is literally all-powerful and all-knowing.

I'll have to get the novellisation (EDIT: Ordered... The joys of the internet). I'm not sure if it's also mentioned there. However, I would have expected his ESP abilities to be boosted just as his destructive capability would have been, anyway.

That was not their idea originally, though. Hell was established before that; I believe it was mentioned as early on as Dark Empire as the "Madness beyond death" or some such, and DEII spoke explicitly of the "Netherworld".

Indeed, and it's a particular bugbear of mine.

[NecronLord]

These guys are approximately 38,000 years from now. When did they go back to using Latin?

They didn't. 'High Gothic' isn't Latin, it's plunked into pseduo-latin for a modern audience, but it's something completely different.

Why has humanity regressed as far as religion and society back to the middle ages?

A five-to-ten thousand dark age, combined with the elite having a strong interest in keeping things that way. That said, the fuedalism and primitivism isn't completely universal.

I understand that there are good reasons for those things in universe, but as someone looking at the setting from the outside I find it ridiculous.

Oh, it is rediculous. It's an inherently rediculous setting, that shouldn't be taken too seriously, and that's a flaw a lot of its modern fans have in trying to present it as a 'serious sci-fi setting' it's really not, even if the makers have moved towards a grim and humourless interpretation of it.

[Faqa]

I agree, Coyote, though I'm not sure why. I tried to like 40K, I really tried, after playing and loving Dawn Of War. But it just.... didn't happen.

I think it's basically the fact that it's not really trying to be anything. Except a backdrop for huge fights. Well, that might be fun as a game, but it makes for an uncompelling universe.

Plus the over-the-top wank that is expected to be TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Over-the-top fappery is fine. But when you try to mix it with DARK AND GRIM, you just get idiocy.

It's just the feeling that the franchise, more than any other, exists to reassure 13-year-old fanboys about the size of their penises.

Hey, I freely admit I'm tossing from a glass house here. But 40K is not for me. Though I might replay DoW at some point....

[Peptuck]

The over-the-top silly/seriousness of it all; Star Wars is also somewhat "silly", but it doesn't seem to try to take itself as seriously as 40k. Star Trek is very ridiculous sometimes, but it also portrays itself differently.

I don't think 40k takes itself seriously. Or rather, it does take itself seriously, to the point where that seriousness itself is taken to a deliberate parody.

I mean, for fuck's sake, look at the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. If that thing isn't a sign that the GRIMDARK seriousness of 40k is itself part of the joke, I don't know what is.

[Darth Hoth]

I'll have to get the novellisation (EDIT: Ordered... The joys of the internet). I'm not sure if it's also mentioned there. However, I would have expected his ESP abilities to be boosted just as his destructive capability would have been, anyway.

I own the later two novellas; they make no hint at omniscience that I am aware of. They do mention that his psychic perceptions are boosted when he siphons off Valley energy, but not to such a degree. Then again, we never do see his full "Ascension" from his point of view.

Indeed, and it's a particular bugbear of mine.

Why? If there is a Force Heaven, why not a Force Hell for the wicked?

[Darth Hoth]

I don't think 40k takes itself seriously. Or rather, it does take itself seriously, to the point where that seriousness itself is taken to a deliberate parody.

I mean, for fuck's sake, look at the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. If that thing isn't a sign that the GRIMDARK seriousness of 40k is itself part of the joke, I don't know what is.

Heretic! As it hath been Written bye the Holey Men of yore, theire Writings reproducated in Youre Upplifting Primer: "Be Strong in your Ignorance!"