Not Digging that WH40K?

[Aaron]

I'm just a whore for science-fantasy. I'm not hiding it, i came out of the sci-fantasy closet years ago. If either SW or 40k ever somehow factored either ghosts, literal ghosts and wraiths, and dragons into the mix i'd probably soil myself.

There's ghosts in the Space Wolf series and Soul Drinkers IIRC. And the Primarch of the Iron Hands, Ferrus Manus killed what was basically a metal dragon on Medusa. So the stuff your looking for is there, you just have to sort through all the various novels and codex.

[white_rabbit]

If either SW or 40k ever somehow factored either ghosts, literal ghosts and wraiths, and dragons into the mix i'd probably soil myself.

Just to add to what others have said here, all that stuff is in both franchises, depending to a greater or lesser extent on what your definition of them is.

But seriously, freaky ghosts and wraiths are everywhere in 40k, and I'm a little concerned that you even mention SW as lacking ghosties......



plenty of Dragons as well.

[Todeswind]

Doesn't the salamanders chapter of Space Marines actually train their soldiers by making them fight the "Salamanders" and "Great Lizards" (Read dragons) on their world?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree completely. Its fucking retarded. And in any vs. scenario, especially with SW, its ludicrous fans give it a blank cheque of possibilities stilted in its favor, and a bunch of limitations so the other side doesn't splatter them like a bunch of goth morons.

This has to be you're most idiotic, pompous, and retarded statement yet. I applaud your ability to continually suprrise me with your inability to contribute anything tangible to a debatE (except what you can parrot from other people, that is.)

Poor, poor Connor that I don't like your 40k fellatio. What ever will I do with myself. I'm sure you're patting yourself on the back for how lofty and Senatorial you are, but its you who contributed the "meanie poophead" worthless post first. I don't like WH40k. What is your problem? And of course you assume I'm talking about your analysis. I'm talking about absurd scenarios where the Empire is forced to try and occupy Earth room-to-room, when there is no way they would not give up and just kill it from orbit if it got bloody enough. As for "parroting", I've contributed at length to many of the people I quote and the theories they support. So you can kindly fuck off. I am not the one who had to have RI call a timeout for me on my stalking and vendetta against you. That is for certain. So go back to reminding yourself how virtuous you are. I'm sure it makes you feel comfortable at night.

[NecronLord]

Doesn't the salamanders chapter of Space Marines actually train their soldiers by making them fight the "Salamanders" and "Great Lizards" (Read dragons) on their world?

... Eheheh.

The Salamanders are just about the most intelligent (up there with the Raven Guard) and noble space marines there are. They do no such thing.

Their initiates (who are recruited and trained in a much more humane way than every other space marine chapter we've ever heard of) have to hunt and kill a slamander (mythological lava-leezard) with only basic tools, as a manhood ritual, in memory of Vulkan and the Emperor, but it's in no way part of their 'training' - it's an initiation rite.

I'm talking about absurd scenarios where the Empire is forced to try and occupy Earth room-to-room,

You know, I'm fairly sure, assuming they had good logistics working, they could do this. It'd be painful, and very bloody, but they've the industrial might to just send endless clones at it.

[Thanas]

I'm talking about absurd scenarios where the Empire is forced to try and occupy Earth room-to-room,

You know, I'm fairly sure, assuming they had good logistics working, they could do this. It'd be painful, and very bloody, but they've the industrial might to just send endless clones at it.

Why clones? Wouldn't war droids like Droidekas or SD-6 do the trick as well, if not better?

[Covenant]

I'm talking about absurd scenarios where the Empire is forced to try and occupy Earth room-to-room,

You know, I'm fairly sure, assuming they had good logistics working, they could do this. It'd be painful, and very bloody, but they've the industrial might to just send endless clones at it.

Why clones? Wouldn't war droids like Droidekas or SD-6 do the trick as well, if not better?

The droids preformed amazingly poorly in the clone wars, and the Empire doesn't seem to use droids in wartime applications at a huge level like that, so there's no reason to assume so. Trying to conquer Earth is just hard. You could always just, like, Deathstar it though.

[Darth Hoth]

The droids preformed amazingly poorly in the clone wars,

Jet fighters performed abysmally in the Second World War. Does this mean that we do not use them today? Because, as we know, it is not like mass applications of new technologies can be flawed in their first incarnations.

Wait. . .

That the Empire does not generally use 'droids in widescale applications is probably due to the cost (I seem to recall the Essential Guide to Droids having SD-9s costing the equivalent of hundreds of conventionally armed troops). There might also be the factor of a Dark Trooper being gross overkill against guerrilla bands (=your average Rebel hold-out). The Trade Federation, by contrast, was either limited by the technology available or they just spammed the enemy with poor but cheap models. Differences in doctrine, if the latter was the case. For an undertaking on the scale of a Stalingrad siege of Holy Terra, breaking out the SD-10s/Automadons/Dark Troopers will not be considered overkill.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Uh the Clone Wars wasnt the first application of wardroids, they'd been around for thousands and thousands of years. Zim the Despot had a small army of them, and that was millennia ago.

[General Zod]

That the Empire does not generally use 'droids in widescale applications is probably due to the cost (I seem to recall the Essential Guide to Droids having SD-9s costing the equivalent of hundreds of conventionally armed troops). There might also be the factor of a Dark Trooper being gross overkill against guerrilla bands (=your average Rebel hold-out). The Trade Federation, by contrast, was either limited by the technology available or they just spammed the enemy with poor but cheap models. Differences in doctrine, if the latter was the case. For an undertaking on the scale of a Stalingrad siege of Holy Terra, breaking out the SD-10s/Automadons/Dark Troopers will not be considered overkill.

Mass producing armies of droids are cheaper than mass producing armies of clones? Exactly how do you figure this? It took years to get the average Clonetrooper combat ready, where by contrast it likely took a matter of days (if not hours or minutes) to manufacture the average droid.

[Darth Hoth]

Uh the Clone Wars wasnt the first application of wardroids, they'd been around for thousands and thousands of years. Zim the Despot had a small army of them, and that was millennia ago.

And no one had them since, barring the Krath sending assassin 'droids and perhaps some small-cale operation in the Jedi Civil War? With Xim's robots essentially being automatons, not 'droids in the modern sense? To me, it feels as though 'droid technologies made a massive breakthrough around the prequels; else, why have we not seen them in common use (on a massive scale, that is) before that?

[Darth Hoth]

Mass producing armies of droids are cheaper than mass producing armies of clones? Exactly how do you figure this? It took years to get the average Clonetrooper combat ready, where by contrast it likely took a matter of days (if not hours or minutes) to manufacture the average droid.

Are you meaning to argue for or against 'droids being cheaper than Kamino clones here? If you are arguing against it, you are doing a poor job of it.

The Essential Guide explicitly called the SD-9 vastly more expensive than comparable man-portable equipment; standard Stormtroopers for their era would be Spaarti clones, not retarded Kamino "1t l00kz T3H K3WL!!!111" growing of babies in vases over vast abysses.

[Covenant]

Plus, Jets performed admirably in the Second World War anyway. The only force which, apparently, had never been used before in the way they were happened to be the clones--who also performed admirably against legions of utterly pathetic droids. So no, this wasn't the first time a droid army had been raised, or droid military units used in one form or another, and they're simply not all that effective, and I see no reason to throw in Dark Trooper nonsense either--we've got no way of Quantifying those things that I've seen, outside of in-game mechanics.

And the SuperDestroyer droids aren't all that impressive either, nor any other of the advanced droids, including Droideka, when you ramp up the firepower a bit more. These are slow, inaccurate combatants, and that's why the clones ground them up. There's no reason to assume that Empire would benefit from moving to a droid-based army anyway, as they've had ample opportunity against actual opponents to begin intergrating more droids into their militaries. Stormtroopers might just be flat-out better overall.

[Connor MacLeod]

*snip rant*

Now, lets reexamine your first post:

I agree completely. Its fucking retarded. And in any vs. scenario, especially with SW, its ludicrous fans give it a blank cheque of possibilities stilted in its favor, and a bunch of limitations so the other side doesn't splatter them like a bunch of goth morons.

Lets see.. condescending and outright insulting manner? Check! Substanceless reply? Check! Blanket characterizations of the fandom (at least as far as the vs debating goes)? Check!

You didn't say anything that was worth more than mockery, and so I mocked you for it. If you actually come up with something of substancee that ISN'T worth mockery, then I will happily address it as such.

Oh, and if that was meant to be an accusation of vendetta that you're tossing around, I certainly hope you have the proof to back it up.

[Darth Hoth]

Plus, Jets performed admirably in the Second World War anyway.

The German ones, at least, did not; all wanking aside, they were unreliable as hell and had all sorts of problems with complexity and maintenance. And, they were rather expensive compared to alternatives.

The only force which, apparently, had never been used before in the way they were happened to be the clones--who also performed admirably against legions of utterly pathetic droids. So no, this wasn't the first time a droid army had been raised, or droid military units used in one form or another, and they're simply not all that effective,

It was the first time it was used on anything like Clone Wars scale; Xim's precious "War-Robot" army was destroyed in battle on one planet (barring the remnant Han found). There is a difference between small, essentially remote-controlled forces and independently function armies of quintillions.

and I see no reason to throw in Dark Trooper nonsense either--we've got no way of Quantifying those things that I've seen, outside of in-game mechanics.

We have Guide descriptions and other portrayals, and some things can be scaled from other units. But fine, exchange them for YVHs if you like; they are hardly less wanked.

And the SuperDestroyer droids aren't all that impressive either, nor any other of the advanced droids, including Droideka, when you ramp up the firepower a bit more. These are slow, inaccurate combatants, and that's why the clones ground them up.

Which makes no sense; why is a 'droid less precise in aim than a human, unless there are other factors (unreliable/unpredictable weapons) that make this so? And where is this stated, by the way?

There's no reason to assume that Empire would benefit from moving to a droid-based army anyway, as they've had ample opportunity against actual opponents to begin intergrating more droids into their militaries. Stormtroopers might just be flat-out better overall.

As I said, I think it is economic reasons, perhaps combined with leftover military bias against and bad PR of 'droids from the Clone Wars. There also that the technology was never really perfected, and that 'droids are not really all that efficient on a grand scale (The Trade Federation's troops were not). It is still stupid not to call on them for a task such as this, which they are most eminently suited for.

[Covenant]

Anyway, besides being a droid fanatic myself, I just don't think they're necessary for this--nor would "Bring Out The Droids" be the sort of warcry that would turn the tide any more than anything else would. Why bother to retool the existing infrastructure to build Imperial War Droids when you could just bombard holy terra from space, hit it with some kind of weapon designed for massive planetary damage, or deploy a vehicle that would better be able to get in there and fight? AT-TE or whatever they're called could probably do corrididor fighting in Holy Terra, and I bet some small speeders would fit too. I think that they'd be able to crack the holy terra defenses in enough time as is without the need for droidus ex machina to seal the deal. Has there ever actually been evidence that Star Wars droids can be made superior to regular infantry, either in a man-for-man sense or an in overall cost-to-benefit sense for the same duties?

[NecronLord]

I'm talking about absurd scenarios where the Empire is forced to try and occupy Earth room-to-room,

You know, I'm fairly sure, assuming they had good logistics working, they could do this. It'd be painful, and very bloody, but they've the industrial might to just send endless clones at it.

Why clones? Wouldn't war droids like Droidekas or SD-6 do the trick as well, if not better?

Clones, recruits and conscripts are what the Galactic Empire uses for soldiers in battle. Droids are, for the most part, a fringe thing. Why would they bother to change that? "More of the same" is a strategy that would work just fine for them here.

[General Zod]

Are you meaning to argue for or against 'droids being cheaper than Kamino clones here? If you are arguing against it, you are doing a poor job of it.

I'm not seeing how you'd be able to get "droids are more expensive than Kamino clones" out of my post at all. . .though if by "conventionally armed" you meant "non-clones", then consider my point withdrawn.

[Base Delta Zero]

I personally like Warhammer 40k... it's not so much 'silly', as it is just absurdly over the top and appears to run on pure undiluted coolness. And the souls of innocent children, plus puppies. Of course, people who like a serious, cerebral series won't like it... it's not supposed to be like that. However, it's still a very fun series in which practically everything is cranked up to 11.

Also, I'm well read enough to know that EVERY LAST SPECK OF LIFE in the 40k universe is currently murdering another speck of life for it's own survival, there are entire civilizations of varying tech levels out there blissfully ignorant of the galactic horrors threatening to consume them...and hell, even the Imperium doesn't just waltz in and shoot the aliens all the time. The first Cain novel was all about defusing a potential war with the Tau via, wait for it, DIPLOMACY. Alien mercenaries (Namely the Kroot) being in the service of vague Imperium factions is not exactly uncommon either, IIRC. 40k doesn't even live up to it's own grim hype...unless you're talking about Chaos...

That's because it's from the Commissar Cain series, which is basically Warhammer 40k Lite. I like the series quite a bit, as it's basically the over-the-top-action style of WH40k with a mere 40% of the GRIM DARK GRIM DARKNESS. I mean, in The Traitor's Hand Cain actually worries about civilian casualties, whereas in other books Imperium armies will roll into cities and start burning everything in sight, (for the paperwork, he claims, but... and the fact they actually have to do paperwork speaks volumes by itself). Basically, despite everyone (especially himself) acting like Cain is the scum of the galaxy, he and the rest of the Imperium, seem to not be total bastards, so you can actually want them to win.

[Connor MacLeod]

You know, I'm fairly sure, assuming they had good logistics working, they could do this. It'd be painful, and very bloody, but they've the industrial might to just send endless clones at it.

True. Although one problem there I never considered in the very thread that spawned that is that if Terra was attacked.. you're sure as fuck going to see EVERYONE in the Imperium actually converging there. If not from astropathic distress calls, then the Emperor will somehow finagle it (he can certainly do that. THere's at least one example in fluff I can think of him doing that as well - through the Tarot, but probably also through astropaths since he's done that in Execution hour and he's bound to evey astropath in the Imperium as is.) You literally could and would see the entire Imperium mobilizing to fight for Terra.

Which may be a tactic they could use against the Imperim, but that would depend (as you say) on logistics as well as how much military might they can amass - it would take ALOT of military might and resources to fight Terra and simultaneously start wiping out every other planet in the Imperium. They can certainly do that with their industrial might, but then SW doesn't have a good history of utilizing that might to full capacity. And it also assumes 40K won't be going on the offensive.

And that assumes just the Imperium vs SW. 40K vs SW is far more messy.

[Darth Hoth]

Anyway, besides being a droid fanatic myself, I just don't think they're necessary for this--nor would "Bring Out The Droids" be the sort of warcry that would turn the tide any more than anything else would.

They are not necessary, but useful. When casualties can be expected to be in the high millions range, it might be nice if they only destroy toys. Better for morale than if the cabbie is sent out delivering telegrams. And Dark Troopers will likely rack up a better body count than Stormies against Astartes and other 40k wank.

Why bother to retool the existing infrastructure to build Imperial War Droids when you could just bombard holy terra from space, hit it with some kind of weapon designed for massive planetary damage, or deploy a vehicle that would better be able to get in there and fight?

Well, the scenario is entirely arbitrary. Any sane commander would, as has been noted before, just give up and slag everything from the crust and up.

AT-TE or whatever they're called could probably do corrididor fighting in Holy Terra, and I bet some small speeders would fit too. I think that they'd be able to crack the holy terra defenses in enough time as is without the need for droidus ex machina to seal the deal.

Those do not fit the bill: Worse manoeuvreability inside, bigger target profile, prone to jamming corridors, less precise weapons of their own, &c. 'Droids will be better. Though I am not saying that they cannot do it, merely that they are not the best for the job.

Has there ever actually been evidence that Star Wars droids can be made superior to regular infantry, either in a man-for-man sense or an in overall cost-to-benefit sense for the same duties?

Was there not mention of a few Dark Troopers slaughtering an entire Rebel base effortlessly and without casualties? And then there are the YVHs to consider. The fluff has it that they are prohibitively expensive, but they are certainly better man-for-man.

[Connor MacLeod]

Why clones? Wouldn't war droids like Droidekas or SD-6 do the trick as well, if not better?

They probably could (and would) use massed droid armies and navies if they needed to - they have the capacity to do it, but for whatever reason they've chosen not to use it, so its probably also not something they would be willing (or able) to use at a drop of the hat. Hell, they could do a Berserker-type assault (massive completely automated warships with independent construction facilities - SW wouldn't even need shipyards or personnel to wage war.) but clearly they don't. EVen in canon we never see massed fleets of Death Stars or robotic fighters or starships or anything like that.

And why this rarely comes up is because with most enemies pitted against the Empire, they're either far below the Empire's capabilities (IE trek) or far above (Dr Who.) and as such it becomes irrelevant.

[Darth Hoth]

I'm not seeing how you'd be able to get "droids are more expensive than Kamino clones" out of my post at all. . .though if by "conventionally armed" you meant "non-clones", then consider my point withdrawn.

You wrote:

Mass producing armies of droids are cheaper than mass producing armies of clones? Exactly how do you figure this?

This sounded like you were attempting to claim that B1 spam 'droids would not be cheaper.

I was talking about Spaarti cloning, which works in a few weeks or so and produces a fully trained warrior. When they can mass produce the clones that quickly and efficiently, they may well be cheaper (in terms of opportunity cost) than overengineered masterpieces like the SD-10, though spam 'droids would still be the cheapest.

[Rye]

I personally like Warhammer 40k... it's not so much 'silly', as it is just absurdly over the top and appears to run on pure undiluted coolness. And the souls of innocent children, plus puppies. Of course, people who like a serious, cerebral series won't like it... it's not supposed to be like that. However, it's still a very fun series in which practically everything is cranked up to 11.

Actually, I'll disagree in principle with the "cerebral series" comment. The background is, well, the background, and it's amenable to any story you want to tell. You could easily do a futuristic noir mystery as you could do a lone modern human on a medieval world or superheroes vs the forces of Hell. The "cerebral" aspect of any story you want to tell is told through the characters and their philosophies, the overarching themes and their individual actions. I think The Dark Knight or V for Vendetta shows this perfectly, the setting is window dressing.

[Covenant]

I just looked up the YVH droids and man are those some wacky things. But they're in a novel, even the disappointing Vong novels, so I can't really throw them out as easily as a Darktrooper. I suppose a pile of those Terminator-lookin' guys might be able to make a mess of things. As advanced automatons I think they might have some advantages avoiding psyker and chaos interference, and they seem to have excellent aim and durability. I doubt they could regenerate from Bolter hits, but it's not like you couldn't just build more. Pretty impressive in terms of their reputation. Have they been quantified yet? I checked the wookipedia article:

While on an investigation of the Ducha AlGray's Hapan estate, Jaina Solo and Zekk were attacked by two YVH 1 droids in the possession of the Ducha. However, even two of the deadly droids were not able to defeat the pair of Jedi.

I find it somewhat confusing that they say "even two." So... are these things considered normally an equal match for a Jedi? That's an impressive accomplishment. How powerful of Jedi are those two? Does this help us draw some conclusions?

Here's a question: What about those Dark Empire droids--the ones that use massive disintergration devices to remove old buildings and rebuild cities? Not the Devastartors, but similar. Couldn't you slowly just dig a hole through the fortifications that way? Assuming that you could the space over Terra, that is. I love 40k, and I don't mind the wank, but it's hardly suprising that one single planet is not an impossible problem to solve.