Not Digging that WH40K?

[Connor MacLeod]

Bleh. The whole issue of "cost" and "capability" will depend entirely on how you decide to go about building the droids (and just what you think SW could or would do in the given situation, which isn't as fixed as it might seem for reasons attirbuted.)

I mean, if you have some self-replicating droid factories you plop down on some uninhhabited moon or near an asteroid field (something they have and can do) you can probably build battle droids of YVH quality or better for not much cost (or at least Darktrooper/Droideka quality.), but the timeframe might be variable.

I'm sure Ender could bring up some numbers on the whole cost/capability issue (he always seems to have numbers like that around.)

But really, the above really represents "ideal" capacity because in theory any corporation or government in STar Wars could probably do this construction droids and droid technology certainly isnt restricted, and everyone has access to an asteroid field. But, for some reason, we never see it. The same way we never see Hyperspace missiles (up til the Galaxy gun in DE2) or hyperspace-travelling kinetic impactors or any of a number of mundane technologies in SW that would be highly destructive in the wrong hands. Go figure.

[Coyote]

This started out as a PM reply to Connor, but I thought it kinda touched on some of my feelings about the setting. I decided to share it here. Connor started by asking what aspects of 40K I first encountered...

...As to 40K, I first saw the gaming stuff-- the wildly impractical tanks with 8 turrets and spikes all over... the chain-saw swords and the powered armor that looked over-done with all sorts of weird Gothic inscriptions on it... It seemed like over-the-top space operatic comedy at first, but the overly-serious and grim tone seemed like an anachronism.

I think the Steampunk-Victorian look just bugs me if someone's trying to be serious about it. All those inscriptions and rivets and angles on the armor & tanks are shot traps; I can't help but look at it with an eye towards realistic criticism. I'd probably deal with it more easily if there wasn't such an attempt to make it seem so serious. I realize that even with some sort of "Impervium" armor, a hit from a sabot of a modern tank would still pop the rivets on the inside of that 90-degree angle armor and turn them into shrapnel.

By the time I saw some comics & the like, I felt like the grim, dark, Gothic aspects were over the top. From a storytelling standpoint, Dark & Grim work best when they are alien environments that protagonists find themselves dropped into. When everything is dark & grim and Gothic-horror, then it becomes the normal operating environment and it looses its impact. It's not Gothic horror, it's Gothic annoyance.

So basically, by the time I'm done running it through my real-life military BS sifter, and then my creative writing critique mill, there's not much left.

I'm not trying to bag on people's favorite setting, as it were, I just had to ask if there was some angle to it all I wasn't 'getting'.

[Darth Hoth]

I just looked up the YVH droids and man are those some wacky things. But they're in a novel, even the disappointing Vong novels, so I can't really throw them out as easily as a Darktrooper. I suppose a pile of those Terminator-lookin' guys might be able to make a mess of things. As advanced automatons I think they might have some advantages avoiding psyker and chaos interference, and they seem to have excellent aim and durability. I doubt they could regenerate from Bolter hits, but it's not like you couldn't just build more. Pretty impressive in terms of their reputation. Have they been quantified yet?

I do not think they have, not around here, at least. Though I might be wrong. (Connor, you know anything?) In any case, they are pretty ridiculously wanked; I would say they are arguably worse than the Dark Troopers.

I checked the wookipedia article:

While on an investigation of the Ducha AlGray's Hapan estate, Jaina Solo and Zekk were attacked by two YVH 1 droids in the possession of the Ducha. However, even two of the deadly droids were not able to defeat the pair of Jedi.

I find it somewhat confusing that they say "even two." So... are these things considered normally an equal match for a Jedi? That's an impressive accomplishment. How powerful of Jedi are those two? Does this help us draw some conclusions?

Wookiee has its own POV and way of logic. They like to make everything look as shiny as possible, if you know what I mean; last I looked, some retard had made the Sun King or whoever from the Ewoks! kiddie show into a massive Force wizard with power to rival Luke's . . . I would say that is mostly hyperbole. Still, with what those things could do, I would say they could bash your average Lucas/EU Jedi rather easily (unless they actually do something sensible like, say, using TK to disrupt its workings). Jaina is a main character, so she thus receives a free Plot Shield to match the Death Star's power output; I do not actually know how she would defeat it, though, as that was in a LotF book and I refuse to touch those with a stick.

Here's a question: What about those Dark Empire droids--the ones that use massive disintergration devices to remove old buildings and rebuild cities? Not the Devastartors, but similar. Couldn't you slowly just dig a hole through the fortifications that way? Assuming that you could the space over Terra, that is. I love 40k, and I don't mind the wank, but it's hardly suprising that one single planet is not an impossible problem to solve.

Construction 'droids. They are not actually in DE, but mentioned in various other sources. And yes, I suppose they would be rather effective in this scenario, assuming that the Empire held the skies.

[Ghost Rider]

Since I don't need the headache of trying to figure who's masturbating over star wars harder, I do want to bring up the word wank.

One does understand that *wank* is relative to the setting, and not because YOU think it is too powerful. A particular example is that most people who've studied 40K do not consider the Space Marine wank or wanked out, but a great many consider Dark Empire's Palpatine Force Powers wank. When asked why, the examples are clear. In one, the technology and abilites are there, and the sum total is not the absolute they could do. Palpatine on the other hand is doing singular abilities that defy even his earlier achievements or any of his peer's achievement at the concieved high end thought.

And to be honest, if you yabbering star wars bitching want a 40K versus SW thread...start a new one, instead of thread jacking.

[NecronLord]

I realize that even with some sort of "Impervium" armor, a hit from a sabot of a modern tank would still pop the rivets on the inside of that 90-degree angle armor and turn them into shrapnel.

You're clearly not thinking 'impervium' enough. Though of course, I rather doubt the 'rivets' are rivets per se, anyway.

More to the point, though; it's an 'unrealistic armour' thing, then? Why doesn't the same kick in over say, Star Wars? Are you seriously telling me that a russ is more laughable and shot-trap filled than an AT-AT?

EDIT: I'd rather say it's the deliberately absurd elements of design, rather than their impracticality. To my knowledge, you don't dislike Star Wars designs, which I would contend are every bit as stupid, and I expect this is because they're not outright meant to be unintelligent, backwards-looking designs, as 40K IG ones are.

[Connor MacLeod]

You're clearly not thinking 'impervium' enough. Though of course, I rather doubt the 'rivets' are rivets per se, anyway.

OTOH some mention of "riveting" is made, but thats mainly the Imperial armour books and the only example was the "Mars Alpha pattern hull", which isnt a common one. We've known 40K tends to vary dramatically in construction methods for vehicles and whatnot and how they achieve capabilities or such.

Out of universe, its just "appearance" based stuff just so you can point at the rivets and say "Hey, its Imperium-made!"

though if you want to laugh, riveting is the least of the absurdities there (I'm reminded of cogs and gears and clockwork. On starships.)

[18-Till-I-Die]

And lets not get started on that one Clone Wars walker which was an open, OPEN, transport that any antipersonnel round could decimate in a second or two.

A lot of Star Wars fails under extreme objective criticism. But so does a lot of...well, every other fictional setting.

[Connor MacLeod]

...As to 40K, I first saw the gaming stuff-- the wildly impractical tanks with 8 turrets and spikes all over... the chain-saw swords and the powered armor that looked over-done with all sorts of weird Gothic inscriptions on it... It seemed like over-the-top space operatic comedy at first, but the overly-serious and grim tone seemed like an anachronism.

There's probably the first problem. The game is about models and appearances. Generally as a rule (at least form the analytical perspective0 I've been encouraged to ignore the "models" and alot of the game based aspects because, well.. its a game. I mean otherwise you have to also point to the fact there's a finite number of trooper models, which would lead to the conclusio nthat the Imperial Guard is made of clones
Artwork also tends to go into that "meh" perspective too, because it tends to go towards a propoganda aspect (which is another element discounted in 40K - there's a fair bit of propoganda in things.)

The truth also is it also depends alot on the source, era/edition, and whatnot you access. Further along you go, the more the "Gothic" atittude tends to predominate (and the less creative it gets.. at least in the game.)

Then again I'm not a very thematic person so maybe because I dnt think of them in "steampunk victorian" or "gothic" terms I tend to disregard that as an issue

I think the Steampunk-Victorian look just bugs me if someone's trying to be serious about it. All those inscriptions and rivets and angles on the armor & tanks are shot traps; I can't help but look at it with an eye towards realistic criticism. I'd probably deal with it more easily if there wasn't such an attempt to make it seem so serious. I realize that even with some sort of "Impervium" armor, a hit from a sabot of a modern tank would still pop the rivets on the inside of that 90-degree angle armor and turn them into shrapnel.

Which you have a point about, but its no more or less problematic than pointing to the powerplant of an ISD or a Death Star and saying "hypermatter" - that shit itself is pretty damn goofy even WITH Curtis explaining it (where do you cram in all the reactor fuel anyhow? You basically have to say "magic" as well.)

That isn't to say you still aren't required to try to explain it (at least for the purposes of analysis or vs debating) but admitting its absurd while still trying to pretend its serious (for analysis) aren't the same thing. If Absurdity were a disqualifier then alot of sci fi analysis becomes rather pointless And I will say for 40K, its setup tends to lend itself more towards expalining inconsistencies away than SW does.

By the time I saw some comics & the like, I felt like the grim, dark, Gothic aspects were over the top. From a storytelling standpoint, Dark & Grim work best when they are alien environments that protagonists find themselves dropped into. When everything is dark & grim and Gothic-horror, then it becomes the normal operating environment and it looses its impact. It's not Gothic horror, it's Gothic annoyance.

That again gets to the whole "visual/propoganda" aspect in 40K, which basically is the same thing. Again, it comes down to where you're looking. (I mean that same game fluff that screams GRIMDARK also mentions "thousands" of wars in a galaxy spanning Empire. Logically that's not going to amount to a huge chunk of the Imperium, even if you assume it onyl counts major wars.)

So basically, by the time I'm done running it through my real-life military BS sifter, and then my creative writing critique mill, there's not much left.

Just out of curiosity, and to echo NL, have you ever run SW through that same thing? And if so, how/why did you come to a different conclusion than with 40K? Is it purely just baesd on the visuals, or what?

[NecronLord]

Like I said above, I think the problem with 40K styling for a lot of people isn't the absurdity, it's the wilful absurdity. You have to take a lot of 40K technology (the clockwork cogitator in one book springs to mind) as comic relief...

[Xess]

I dislike the chaos/demon stuff in 40k. To me that kind of stuff belongs in a straight fantasy setting without the science-fiction elements. Of course I don't even like the "chaos/evil corrupts people in contact with it" stuff even in straight fantasy.

I think the Necrons and Eldar are awesome though. Robo-undead and space elves, yes please!

[Ford Prefect]

Since I don't need the headache of trying to figure who's masturbating over star wars harder, I do want to bring up the word wank.

One does understand that *wank* is relative to the setting, and not because YOU think it is too powerful. A particular example is that most people who've studied 40K do not consider the Space Marine wank or wanked out, but a great many consider Dark Empire's Palpatine Force Powers wank. When asked why, the examples are clear. In one, the technology and abilites are there, and the sum total is not the absolute they could do. Palpatine on the other hand is doing singular abilities that defy even his earlier achievements or any of his peer's achievement at the concieved high end thought.

Ghost Rider, every time you say this I feel as though there is hope for the world. I think an even better example is comparing KJA's Suncrusher with a Xeelee Nightfighter (which I've given a couple of times before). Both are roughly fighter sized, nearly indestructible spacecraft with a weapon that can destroy a star. The Suncrusher is completely ridiculous given the setting (seriously, has anyone ever said 'oh, hey, the Suncrusher is a totally reasonable addition to Star Wars'?), whereas the Nightfighter is more or less appropriate to the scale of the Xeelee, and its construction is woven into their evolutionary history.

Seriously, if you want to call all of a setting 'wanky' you'd have to have a really good reason. High numbers do not constitute 'wank'; most of us have probably read the main page, and if you have, you should have an idea of how ludicrously massive the numbers can get in Star Wars. I mean, wow, those calculations on materials strength in Executor are mindboggling. How many megatons from the Death Star superlaser? None of this makes Star Wars wanky as a setting relative to itself.

I mean, I can imagine some genre-savvy Imperial Guardsman looking at a Necron regenerating after being hit by an anti-tank missile and saying 'what a wanker', but that's the Imperium's general reaction to Necron technology, right down to a 'I've done the sums, and this is clearly impossible' moment.

[Stark]

Like I said above, I think the problem with 40K styling for a lot of people isn't the absurdity, it's the wilful absurdity. You have to take a lot of 40K technology (the clockwork cogitator in one book springs to mind) as comic relief...

I think the issue with this is that some people would rather avoid these elements of the setting, and others embrace the self-parody. Most of the fluff trips my shit filter and I have to ignore huge swathes of the setting because it's obviously stupid, for instance. The fact that it's -intentionally- stupid doesn't make it less eye-rolling, however much the interesting setting probably wouldn't hold together if you tried to make it 'for serious', but then people also try to treat a joke setting as something worthy of analysis, so it's an odd situation.

[Ford Prefect]

Personally, I only really enjoy 40k when it is at least a little tongue-in-cheek. It doesn't necessarily have to be full blown parody*, and I don't necessarily think playing it with a slightly non-serious tone does not mean you can't actually tell stories with some sort of serious meaning. Yeah, I think JOHN RAMBO has strong themes, so obviously my opinion is bunk. I'd still read a violent romantic comedy about a Sisters of Battle genealogist.

*Though I think a depiction of the grim, dritty grim darkness of the far future with all the people in it fairly happy and relatively satisfied would be quite amusing.

[Stark]

Oh yeah, I don't think it affects the quality (or not) of the stories that work in the setting (and ironically I was discussing the themes of Rambo just the other day;)), just that the setting's level of silliness is always going to put certain people off regardless - like I said, I've heard the novels are quite good (for scifi/fantasy, at least) but I'd never read the damn things because my eyes would roll and I couldn't get through it.

[PayBack]

Well I like 40k though I am new to it and have had no contact at all with the games. My introduction has been books by Dan Abnett, and now the Horus Heresy. I don't mind the Chaos gods and demons stuff but then I've been into fantasy as much as Sci-Fi (I'll admit to having played AD&D as a kid ).

That's why I like the Horus Heresy series so much (so far) because all this supernatural stuff is considered BS yet you know it's real, and coming. I'll admit the art is over the top but I don't focus on that much and it's more in my minds eye than the OTT artwork that's out there.

[PayBack]

EDIT.

Oh yes and to the person saying the universe lacks substance, you want to read the Horus Heresy and Abnett books.. especially the former as that series tends to have believable (not too over the top) characters (again I'm only up to book 3), and fleshes out the universe well. IMNSHO

[Shroom Man 777]

*Though I think a depiction of the grim, dritty grim darkness of the far future with all the people in it fairly happy and relatively satisfied would be quite amusing.

This is why Ciaphas Cain is totally awesome. You've got reasonable generals who serve people tea, and a cute Inquisitor babe who's all whimsical and enjoys singing on stage, and a bunch of troopers who wuv their friendly neighborhood Imperial Commissar!

^_______________^


Seriously. The grimdark trappings only make the stories more fun because a whole lot of the people in 'em are essentially really good guys.

It also has an Orky Gargant owning the fuck out of Necron Monoliths, so yeah!

The Eisenhorn books that portray the civilian side of Life in 40k are also great. I mean, it's a HUEG universe and I think it's rather multidimensional - maybe even more than Star Wars (tatooine lol) - since one of the reasons why it's so absurd is that it blends a whole lot of everything from everywhere. Everything including Imperial horse cavalry that leaves horse shit that Ciaphas Cain must take care not to step on!

Everything I've heard about Star Wars EU makes me want to avoid it like the plague. Everything I've heard about 40k novels makes me want to take the effort to order them from Amazon.com and have my mom pick them up from my auntie in the 'States when she is visiting the USA. Because even though there are shitloads of Star Wars EU books with shitty covers in our local bookstores, I can hardly ever find Black Library publications here.

[NecronLord]

*Though I think a depiction of the grim, dritty grim darkness of the far future with all the people in it fairly happy and relatively satisfied would be quite amusing.

This is why Ciaphas Cain is totally awesome. You've got reasonable generals who serve people tea, and a cute Inquisitor babe who's all whimsical and enjoys singing on stage, and a bunch of troopers who wuv their friendly neighborhood Imperial Commissar!

^_______________^


Seriously. The grimdark trappings only make the stories more fun because a whole lot of the people in 'em are essentially really good guys.

It also has an Orky Gargant owning the fuck out of Necron Monoliths, so yeah!

Just wait 'til you get the next one... it's awesome.

[Ender]

*Though I think a depiction of the grim, dritty grim darkness of the far future with all the people in it fairly happy and relatively satisfied would be quite amusing.

This is why Ciaphas Cain is totally awesome. You've got reasonable generals who serve people tea, and a cute Inquisitor babe who's all whimsical and enjoys singing on stage, and a bunch of troopers who wuv their friendly neighborhood Imperial Commissar!

^_______________^


Seriously. The grimdark trappings only make the stories more fun because a whole lot of the people in 'em are essentially really good guys.

It also has an Orky Gargant owning the fuck out of Necron Monoliths, so yeah!

Just wait 'til you get the next one... it's awesome.

The Chaos one, or is then newest one out already?

[DrStrangelove]

I didnt like 40K for the longest time as i couldnt see why a civilization in the year 40000 was building tanks that looked like they came out of WWI....then i started reading the novels and i came to like the setting. Not as much as SW but 40K is still pretty cool in its own way.

[Shroom Man 777]

I got the Omnibus, mang. I love what happened in it - from Cain and Co. owning Chaos forces while spouting cheesy one liner and sports-team references, to Cain the Prophet, and to that hot Daemoness. Mang.

I also "acquired" the book after that. Adowwable AdMech TechPriest girl with a mechanical tail and a wet shirt!!!

Seriously, Ciaphas Cain is totally awesome. The stories are almost a parody of the entire setting, but at the same time they are such an awesome homage. If Ciaphas Cain was a hardboiled cop, he'd be kicking the ass out of shotgun-totting suburbanite scum in some out of the way village in Britain.

[NecronLord]

The Chaos one, or is then newest one out already?

Cain's Last Stand was out at games day. It has more chaos in it, what with being set in the 13th Black Crusade.

I also "acquired" the book after that. Adowwable AdMech TechPriest girl with a mechanical tail and a wet shirt!!!

She's great fun... And back in the next one

Seriously, Ciaphas Cain is totally awesome. The stories are almost a parody of the entire setting, but at the same time they are such an awesome homage. If Ciaphas Cain was a hardboiled cop, he'd be kicking the ass out of shotgun-totting suburbanite scum in some out of the way village in Britain.

Have you seen Hot Fuzz? Or is that an entirely cooincidental similarity?

[Shroom Man 777]

Cain's Last Stand was out at games day. It has more chaos in it, what with being set in the 13th Black Crusade.

What was after Death or Glory? (Where can I get a... free reading... of these stories?)

I also "acquired" the book after that. Adowwable AdMech TechPriest girl with a mechanical tail and a wet shirt!!!

She's great fun... And back in the next one

YES! ^_________^

What was her name again?

Have you seen Hot Fuzz? Or is that an entirely cooincidental similarity?

What do you think?

It's like how Hot Fuzz both parodies and simultaneously honors buddy cop movies with its humor and awesome. Except Cain's humor has less of that out and out stuff at the near end (like shooting a priest, shotgunning a doctor's foot off, or giving a flying kick to an old lady armed with an elephant gun), but sorta has exactly the same silly but not over-the-top gags that dominated the film before the "climax". Like the gags with the name (Cocker, P.I. Staker), the silly townspeople, etc. Cain also has name gags and silly (but totally pleasant and sane) Imperials (and Tau!) and stuff.

[NecronLord]

What was after Death or Glory? (Where can I get a... free reading... of these stories?)

Your local public library?

I also "acquired" the book after that. Adowwable AdMech TechPriest girl with a mechanical tail and a wet shirt!!!

She's great fun... And back in the next one

YES! ^_________^

What was her name again?

Felicia.

What do you think?

Now I have a strong desire to buy that on DVD. Damn you...

But yes. I don't think it's wise to take 40K seriously, and if you're not prepared to consider it in a distinctly jocular fashion, I can see how it'd be about as amusing as a kick in the balls.

[Shroom Man 777]

Your local public library?

Can I *borrow* your *library card*?

*wink* *wink*

*nudge* *nudge*

Now I have a strong desire to buy that on DVD. Damn you...

But yes. I don't think it's wise to take 40K seriously, and if you're not prepared to consider it in a distinctly jocular fashion, I can see how it'd be about as amusing as a kick in the balls.

Also, I particularly also love Amberely's footnotes talking about all sorts of things from their own Top Gun-equivalent TV series Attack Run!, to how she enjoys popsicles on a hot day, and stuff like children's educational reading material on promethium and how it can be used as a source of food, as rocket fuel, and as fire to burn heretics with.

I think 40k is the sci-fi equivalent of RUTHLESS 80s ACTION MOVIES. It's totally over the top and, when you think about it, it's inane and a lot of people hate it. But the fact that it knows its over the top and then there are the cheesy one-liners with Arnold-style self-aware delivery, well, it's totally awesome then. Even Serious Business stuff like Eisenhorn has bits of humor which make the entire thing totally enjoyable.

Hrm... I guess this is why I didn't enjoy reading those Space Marine short stories in Let the Galaxy Burn. Space Marines, bleh.

Just reading this makes me smile.