Presidential Debates Thread [26.9.08]

[Simplicius]

Oh Christ - "I looked into Putin's eyes, and saw three letters." Didn't we go through this eye-looking shit already?

[Admiral Valdemar]

If you read that right, it means he looked at Putin's penis.

[The Vortex Empire]

Oh please Obama, anti-russia is not going to help. Come on, Georgia is at fault here.

It's western russophobia, it can't be avoided with any politician.

I thought Obama is wise enough to see through those phobia. Sigh.

Most Americans think Russia attacked first, siding with Russia would be politically stupid.

[Superman]

I'm thinking that this debate isn't going to do down in history as one of the more memorable presidential debates. Given the fact that the economy is in the shitter and we have the first black candidate, I expected a little more.

[Gandalf]

Aaand McCain drops 9/11.

[Surlethe]

McCain's done much better presenting his case than I thought he would. The fact that his voice is lower and he can thus easily interrupt and talk over Obama doesn't hurt him, either.

[Pablo Sanchez]

I thought Obama is wise enough to see through those phobia. Sigh.

Would it then be wise to make nice-nice with a profoundly undemocratic, aggressive state whose interests often clash with the USA's? Don't be daft. Obama's answer was good enough for me, because it indicates that he will be serious about Russia--serious about working on them in an effective manner. He is not going to be their pal, but at the same time he is not going to follow the McCain strategy of "rar fuck you!" where we would do shit that at best would do nothing substantial and merely make the bear pissed at us.

[Illuminatus Primus]

"League of Democracies"? Y'mean, like the League of Nations? Coalition of the Willing? The Fellowship of the Ring?

They all failed, matey.

Right, because the neo-cons would stick with it the moment that France or Germany dared disagree with us...like Iraq?

[Axis Kast]

Wasn't it in a leading question . . . ? How could he not?

So far, I think McCain has sounded much better on Russia, and on Georgian policy. Obama's argument that the Russians should have been kept from sending peacekeepers is nice, but pie-in-the-sky. Moscow would never have agreed.

Obama makes a good point about Homeland Security improvements, but I disagree about the imminent problem of suitcase nukes, and I doubt that Obama would send considerable moneys to such programs.

I also disagree with Obama's apparent downgrading of Iraq; Afghanistan and Pakistan are important, but I don't think they should be elevated above Iraq.

[Superman]

McCain's done much better presenting his case than I thought he would. The fact that his voice is lower and he can thus easily interrupt and talk over Obama doesn't hurt him, either.

I think so, but he looks pretty old and frail too. I wonder if anyone will later be comparing this debate to the historic Nixon/Kennedy debate. Obama seems younger and more vibrant, while McCaine seems old and tired.

[Medic]

I missed the 1st hour in the gym, but it seems McCain's coming out on top in this early part of the 2nd hour; he's really trying to stake a claim to the 'knows defense' schtick and Obama doesn't, and the crowd's leaning towards him, definitely.

It is Missouri, but if one side or the other can't take a strength away from the other, and it's a strength-on-strength election, it amounts to mobilizing the respective bases, I would think.

OTOH, it's funny seeing McCain try to distance himself from Bush's policies on some questions. THAT'S an uphill fight for him, one Obama will try to keep pinned on him and a fight I hope McCain keeps trying to fight.

[Surlethe]

McCain's done much better presenting his case than I thought he would. The fact that his voice is lower and he can thus easily interrupt and talk over Obama doesn't hurt him, either.

I think so, but he looks pretty old and frail too. I wonder if anyone will later be comparing this debate to the historic Nixon/Kennedy debate. Obama seems younger and more vibrant, while McCaine seems old and tired.

He's stumbled once or twice, but he comes across (to me, at least) as tenacious. Obama, on the other hand, stutters and "uhs" with almost everything he says.

McCain also has the ability to lie without faltering ("takes care of veterans"? Yeah, right; he voted against veterans' compensation). That helps him immensely. Obama sees nuance and must qualify so his statements are accurate; McCain can simply make simple, false statements.

[Pumako]

Last remark: P.O.W. card.

[Gandalf]

He's dropped POW!

McCain's really improved since this started. Still a bit corpsey, but better.

[raptor3x]

...and the crowd's leaning towards him, definitely.

It's interesting you say that because CNN is showing the audience reaction vs time on screen and it seems like Obama is coming out on top by a significant margin.

[acesand8s]

I think McCain won this debate, at least the foreign policy part that was the bulk of the program. Obama did much, much better for the first couple of questions dealing with the economy, but the last hour went pretty solidly to McCain in my opinion. McCain sounded better, especially in the way he constantly hit on the point that he's seen these places and I don't think Obama ever put up a good defense to the point.

Particularly annoying was the fact McCain repeated hit Obama on the surge and Obama never replied. I thought he was about to bring up the fact that the true goal of the surge was to stabilize Iraq politically rather than militarily, but then he dropped the ball and failed to go on that track. He just stood there and let McCain keep slamming him with that point.

Obama finally seemed to come together at the end, saying that the US' place in the world has suffered from the Republican mindset. That should have been the core of his argument in every question during the night. But, it strikes me as too little too late. Fortunately, everything I've seen suggests that the one key issue in this campaign is not foreign policy but rather the economy. Given that this is the first debate, I imagine everything said tonight will have very little impact on the actual course of events.

[Surlethe]

I think McCain won this debate, at least the foreign policy part that was the bulk of the program. Obama did much, much better for the first couple of questions dealing with the economy, but the last hour went pretty solidly to McCain in my opinion. McCain sounded better, especially in the way he constantly hit on the point that he's seen these places and I don't think Obama ever put up a good defense to the point.

I was frustrated that he didn't point out that it's not a point! What ever could make someone naive enough to think that a personal visit to a war zone, where you fly in on your personal jet, take tours of safe spots while under heavy guard, and do a photo-op or two with soldiers, gives you an accurate assessment of the strategic and tactical situation? I know if I were Obama, that would have been the first thing out of my mouth after McCain made that point for the first time.

Obama finally seemed to come together at the end, saying that the US' place in the world has suffered from the Republican mindset. That should have been the core of his argument in every question during the night. But, it strikes me as too little too late. Fortunately, everything I've seen suggests that the one key issue in this campaign is not foreign policy but rather the economy. Given that this is the first debate, I imagine everything said tonight will have very little impact on the actual course of events.

I don't know. The first debate is generally the most important one; the Obama campaign is gambling that people will stay tuned for the economy debate because that's what's on people's minds.

[Superman]

I'm not so sure McCaine was the clear winner. He was very condescending, and even seemed to scold Obama a time or two. McCaine did start doing a better job toward the end, but overall, I wouldn't say he won.

[The Vortex Empire]

Judging by the audience reaction graph on CNN, I'd say that it was almost a tie, but Obama came out a little on top.

Obama needed to hit back harder, call McCain on his bullshit. If only we could get him here to give him advice.

[acesand8s]

I was frustrated that he didn't point out that it's not a point! What ever could make someone naive enough to think that a personal visit to a war zone, where you fly in on your personal jet, take tours of safe spots while under heavy guard, and do a photo-op or two with soldiers, gives you an accurate assessment of the strategic and tactical situation? I know if I were Obama, that would have been the first thing out of my mouth after McCain made that point for the first time.

That sums up my whole reaction to the debate. Obama kept letting these things slide in the foreign policy section of the debate and it sounded like McCain held the initiative. Contrast that with his performance in the economic aspects, where he repeatedly challenged McCain on his talking points. McCain mentions earmarks, Obama reminds the audience that getting rid of them is equivalent to the president mandating that all federal agencies use both sides of a piece of paper to reduce costs. McCain mentions high US corporate tax rates, Obama reminds the audience that the big corporations aren't paying them. It almost felt like there were two different Obama's in the debate.

[Axis Kast]

I think that it was a minor victory for Obama, who sounded very impressive, especially during the first half hour.

Obama fired back repeatedly when he felt defamed or misrepresented, and I think he left McCain literally speechless at times, reducing him to that awful grin he takes on when he's trying to recover from being made a fool of. Obama's efforts to clarify his stance on Pakistan, as well as his role in certain votes, were impressive.

Obama is undoubtedly more convincing on the economy, but I was actually expecting more from him, in terms of foreign policy. I assume somebody in his camp must have encouraged him to distance himself from Iraq by emphasizing other theaters in the War on Terror, by "returning" to "forgotten" Afghanistan, and emphasizing engagement with Pakistan, but McCain successfully parried, and, at times, Obama seemed to use a shotgun rather than the scalpel he originally (and correctly) identified as the appropriate tool for the American president.

I think McCain sounded much more impressive when it came to Georgia, and I liked his final statement about dealing with allies. Obama lost his chance to criticize McCain enough on linkages with Bush administration diplomacy, which I believe was rather odd. In fact, a lot of points that Obama could have made, he didn't. The two places he looked good were in clarifying his stance on sit-downs with other leaders, which I approve of, and committing to ABM. It was difficult to watch him miss his chance to point out that the Surge was a tactic that McCain claims is a strategy, and was originally supposed to be temporary, even if it is effective. I think he looked weak on Iraq, however, since he kept his focus elsewhere, and only talked about withdrawal, not specific containment strategies for future problems.

I was a little concerned, too, that Obama seems enthusiastic about telling Iraq what to do with its money. Baghdad has a habit of taking roads we'd rather they didn't take.

[Superman]

Juliani is commenting for the Republican side because Palin's camp refused. They're really keeping her locked down, aren't they? lol

[CmdrWilkens]

Here is the thing with everyone already having a downward view on Mccain from his stunts this week and the slowly building perception that his presence helped derail a bipartisan deal to fix the markets he had to win, as in emphatically win, this debate. The economics debate will almost certainly tilt towards Obama and the VP debate would be a miracle if Palin is anything other than embarrasing.

Moreover the first debate is NOT the most important. Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004 crushed Bush in the first debate, but it set the bar lower for the second debate so Bush not being a complete idiot made him the winner. Now I'm not saying the same is the case here but McCain has been in a tailspin over the past week and has looked completely disjointed. Obama didn't hit him on everything but made enough points as to the erratic and contradictory nature of McCain's campaign that it will continue to be a part of the narrative. The old wisdom is still true: so long as the campaign is about McCain then Obama wins.

[Invictus ChiKen]

One of CNN's commentators made a good point. Tonight McCain didn't need a slight victory. He needed a clear and massive win. Obama kept him from getting it so even a slight McCain win would have been a loss. To bad tonight was a slight Obama win.

I feel better but I'll feel really good if November gives us an Obama win.

[Medic]

...and the crowd's leaning towards him, definitely.

It's interesting you say that because CNN is showing the audience reaction vs time on screen and it seems like Obama is coming out on top by a significant margin.

Specifically, it was a question on Iraq and John put that dumb smile on his face that was there half the night and the crowd wooed in his favor IIRC.

Like I said, I missed the 1st hour (and didn't realize the 2nd hour wasn't a full hour until it just ended 37 minutes through ) so my judgment of the CROWD'S reaction leaves a lot to be desired. I noticed they cheered when he and his wife waved and left, after the debate, so my initial reaction probably was not an example representative of the debate in it's entirety.

McCain also has the ability to lie without faltering ("takes care of veterans"? Yeah, right; he voted against veterans' compensation). That helps him immensely. Obama sees nuance and must qualify so his statements are accurate; McCain can simply make simple, false statements.

I'll echo that, I missed where he stuck a claim on veterans care but he speaks in a flowing, unhalting way which is, to his vast credit, confidant and authoritative, and that's precisely why I probably missed it.

Hopefully Obama can correct those more as they come up without simply coming off as contrarian or, in the eyes of the viewers, like he's making excuses. Cause even if it is the truth, throwing a lie out there which is immediately objected to ISN'T necessarily seen for what it is; it can be seen as Obama lying, in the most egregious cases, depending on how people judge the 2 with their guts. Unfortunately, people simply aren't informed enough to rely on more than that, in many cases, and I kid myself if I think even a very small number of people will research some of these disagreements in their own time to figure out the truth.