Not Digging that WH40K?

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2008-09-26 11:02am

Amazon lists the paperback of Cain's Last Stand as being out on the 3rd of November. Looks like you've got another month of lording it over us peons, NL.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-09-26 12:18pm

Just reading those comments, how was that series ever approved? It makes a mockery of everything 40k stands for!

I happen to like Grimdark . . .

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2008-09-26 01:06pm

Darth Hoth wrote:Just reading those comments, how was that series ever approved? It makes a mockery of everything 40k stands for!

Which is probably why it was approved

.
...
That and it must be one of the Black Library's best-selling series

.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2008-09-26 02:12pm

Darth Hoth wrote:Just reading those comments, how was that series ever approved? It makes a mockery of everything 40k stands for!

I happen to like Grimdark . . .

Go back and read Rogue Trader. It's actually exemplifying everything 40K stands for.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-09-26 02:48pm

andrewgpaul wrote:Go back and read Rogue Trader. It's actually exemplifying everything 40K stands for.

Rogue Trader was before my time; I do not have access to a copy.

Hm, maybe I overreacted. But I like 40k as it is. I do not mind a little playfulness every now and then, but it should be dark humour, not outright spoof. The Cain books sound too light, like parody.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-09-26 05:10pm

Well. Put it this way. Y'know the orks? The amount of comedy in them? That's watered down by about half, from RT (some elements are working their way back in; the ork gun that teleports terrified snotlings inside enemy armour reappeared lately for instance) Everything else was also much more hilarious. The image of renegade marines who sit around in bars with slightly defaced armour is a good one...

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2008-09-26 06:05pm

My favorite, personally.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2008-09-26 07:05pm

Man,I wish there was a good wiki for 40k stuff because I'm trying to refresh myself on the Cain characters and stories. But the Cain series, in my view, represents everything right with the 40k universe.

"Though he would be embarrassed to know it, Commissar Cain's actions here led to his being regarded as a minor prophet of the Emperor by the local clergy. I present an excerpt of their holy book below:

And as the Great Daemon did rise up and threaten all with death and destruction, the great prophet of the one true God did spake

"Screw that!""

- Traitor's Hand from memory, but you get the idea. This series is exactly what is called for.

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2008-09-26 07:26pm

"And the prophet spake, 'Frak this, for my faith is shield proof against your blandishments!'"

The best part is that this is written by one of the very Tallarn soldiers who witnessed Cain fighting off a daemon of Slaanesh.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-09-26 08:20pm

NecronLord wrote:Well. Put it this way. Y'know the orks? The amount of comedy in them? That's watered down by about half, from RT (some elements are working their way back in; the ork gun that teleports terrified snotlings inside enemy armour reappeared lately for instance) Everything else was also much more hilarious. The image of renegade marines who sit around in bars with slightly defaced armour is a good one...

I remember that stuff from the game in the 90s. Why'd the remove the more komedy units?

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-09-26 08:39pm

Stark wrote:I remember that stuff from the game in the 90s. Why'd the remove the more komedy units?

I ask myself the same question whenever I remember that Thunder Hammers used to be able to do template attacks.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-09-26 08:40pm

I dimly recall people being annoyed at the randomness (particularly with squig cannons) but it's interesting they're bringing them back.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-09-26 08:44pm

While I can understand the need for game balance, and really Terminators and Librarians used to be stupidly powerful back in the day, I think that a lot of the old stuff was a really fun. Maybe Cyclone missiles launchers don't need to be able to explode and launch a dozen missiles across the table. On the other hand, the Orks should make liberal usage of weapons that shoot Snotlings at people.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2008-09-26 09:41pm

Ender wrote:Man,I wish there was a good wiki for 40k stuff because I'm trying to refresh myself on the Cain characters and stories. But the Cain series, in my view, represents everything right with the 40k universe.

"Though he would be embarrassed to know it, Commissar Cain's actions here led to his being regarded as a minor prophet of the Emperor by the local clergy. I present an excerpt of their holy book below:

And as the Great Daemon did rise up and threaten all with death and destruction, the great prophet of the one true God did spake

"Screw that!""

- Traitor's Hand from memory, but you get the idea. This series is exactly what is called for.

It's a bit hard to search, but the Lexicanum (wh40k. lexicanum. com/wiki/Main_Page) is one of the better ones I've found.

And I'm fairly certain the Cain books got the nod because they're essentially the Flashman Papers redone in the 40k universe.

Stark wrote:I remember that stuff from the game in the 90s. Why'd the remove the more komedy units?

Even just some of the funnier fluff, like Stormboyz being a concern to more traditional warriors because they actually polish their boots (heck, they were originally a parody of Nazis). The Orkish invention of the musical genre of Goffik Rok. The squigpipes and glokenskul. They essentially started out as satire and spoofs of all different cultures and groups.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-09-26 10:10pm

The Dark wrote:Even just some of the funnier fluff, like Stormboyz being a concern to more traditional warriors because they actually polish their boots (heck, they were originally a parody of Nazis). The Orkish invention of the musical genre of Goffik Rok. The squigpipes and glokenskul. They essentially started out as satire and spoofs of all different cultures and groups.

What does this have to do with why they removed these units from the game, and why they're putting them back now? The Orks didn't get less retarded, they just removed some of the more chaotic things - squig cannons could either be totally useless or hugely effective, and I think beardos complained.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-09-27 01:31am

Darth Hoth wrote:Rogue Trader was before my time; I do not have access to a copy.

Hm, maybe I overreacted. But I like 40k as it is. I do not mind a little playfulness every now and then, but it should be dark humour, not outright spoof. The Cain books sound too light, like parody.

Well, I think Cain going "I told you so" to a scared shitless TechPriest when Necron Flayed Ones start wearing the skin of eviscerated Adeptus Mechanicus peoples isn't really quite an outright spoof.

Really, the fact that the Cain stories aren't overly and unnecessarily grimdark does a lot to humanize the 40k universe, and that's totally great.

Seriously, 40k would lose its impact if everyone and their dog were a bunch of angsty grim and frostbitten grimdark death warrior killfucking soulshitters with spikes coming out of their backsides on top of skulls on banners on bannerspikeskulls.

It adds emotional resonance and human sympathy to portray realistically human characters who react sanely in light of all the horrific shit in the 40k-verse. By reacting sanely, I mean running away in sheer bowel-clenching terror.

It helps that the person doing this happens to be a (Friendly Neighborhood) Imperial Commissar (whose girlfriend is an Imperial Inquisitor).

Cain and Amberley sitting on a tree! K-I-S-S-I-N-G!!!

^_____________^

I also loved how in Caves of Ice, the cybernetic starship captain gets scolded on by his disembodied super-cyberized daughter who is a TechPriest.

Oh, and those excerpts from stupid Imperial propaganda books, like Sulla's memoirs, for which Amberley apologizes for all the time!

And Colonel Kasteen! SQUEEEE!!!!

I am a total Cain fangirl.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-09-27 04:47am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Imperial Commissar

While I like Gaunt and Cain, and though they're snappy dressers by virtue of their position, it is still highly unusual to make a pair of fairly compassionate characters Commissars. On the other hand, it is nice to see the 'inspiring lead from the front officer' type; Commissars don't just inspire with fear.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-09-27 05:01am

Cain is just about as inspiring as Captain Edmund Blackadder in the trenches of the Great War.

The only difference is that instead of cunning plans, Cain's Baldrick solves things with a nasty meltagun.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-09-27 05:16am

Shroom Man 777 wrote: Well, I think Cain going "I told you so" to a scared shitless TechPriest when Necron Flayed Ones start wearing the skin of eviscerated Adeptus Mechanicus peoples isn't really quite an outright spoof.

Well, yes. This is because necrons are what really unmans Caiphas Cain.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2008-09-27 05:40am

I'm rather fond of WH40K since I read the Eisehorn and Ravenor books.
I also think the Caiphas Cain novels are pure awesome and the other WH40k book by the same author is also good.
The setting is quite different from my favourite pulp SF setting and at the same time there are many similarities, instead of using star ship/fighter grade technology all the way down to robots and tanks or teleporting warheads into hostile ships they teleport boarding parties around and fight real large scale ground battles.

NecronLord wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote: Well, I think Cain going "I told you so" to a scared shitless TechPriest when Necron Flayed Ones start wearing the skin of eviscerated Adeptus Mechanicus peoples isn't really quite an outright spoof.
Well, yes. This is because necrons are what really unmans Caiphas Cain.

Certainly with good reason though.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2008-09-27 06:57am

Stark wrote:
The Dark wrote:Even just some of the funnier fluff, like Stormboyz being a concern to more traditional warriors because they actually polish their boots (heck, they were originally a parody of Nazis). The Orkish invention of the musical genre of Goffik Rok. The squigpipes and glokenskul. They essentially started out as satire and spoofs of all different cultures and groups.
What does this have to do with why they removed these units from the game, and why they're putting them back now? The Orks didn't get less retarded, they just removed some of the more chaotic things - squig cannons could either be totally useless or hugely effective, and I think beardos complained.

Probably was because of whining from the beardy quarter. Though orks did have some fun rules at one point (the old rule for a battlewagon's transport capacity was "as many models as you can cram on it, but if they fall off when you move it you have to leave them there".

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2008-09-27 09:36am

That was from the early "comedy" days.

The orks are an interesting example, really. Right back in the Rogue Trader rulebook (the one with man-eating face flannels, giant carnivorous squirrels and "Birmingham, the Black Planet"), Orks were presented fairly seriously. The comedy aspect arose about a year later, I think, when they started nailing down aspects of the background (the Eldar went from random space-pirates to the Craftworld-dwelling snobs we know and love). It was Waaargh! The Orks (I think I've got the right number of 'a's in that) that started introducing the Klanz, Stormboyz, Shokk Attack guns, etc. 2nd edition 40K started toning down the humour (introducing Ghazghull and the 2nd Battle for Armaggeddon), and then 3rd edition (1999-2000, I think) that ditched the entire concept of the Clans and all the special equipment from the tabletop army.

I can't remember who the lead writers are on 5th edition, but I suspect they're responsible for the resurgence of the lightheartedness.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2008-09-27 10:35am

Heck, anyone else remember the FreeBooterz book(I think I got that right). Failed Genestealer Cult finding an evolutionary dead end in Orkz for the win!

The random, and quite often self-destructive shit was the entire point. Heck. I'll still do random battles of Final Liberation with an entirely Mekboy army just to see what happens.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-09-27 10:43am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Really, the fact that the Cain stories aren't overly and unnecessarily grimdark does a lot to humanize the 40k universe, and that's totally great.

Seriously, 40k would lose its impact if everyone and their dog were a bunch of angsty grim and frostbitten grimdark death warrior killfucking soulshitters with spikes coming out of their backsides on top of skulls on banners on bannerspikeskulls.

It adds emotional resonance and human sympathy to portray realistically human characters who react sanely in light of all the horrific shit in the 40k-verse. By reacting sanely, I mean running away in sheer bowel-clenching terror.

It helps that the person doing this happens to be a (Friendly Neighborhood) Imperial Commissar (whose girlfriend is an Imperial Inquisitor).

I understand your point, and I do agree; I have always, for example, preferred the Imperial Guard to the Astartes, who, whether appropriate to the setting or not, always struck me as wanky and uninteresting (yes GR, you may flame me for misusing the term, but I really do not know what to say instead). Supersoldiers who are perfect in every respect make for poor storytelling; realistically portrayed humans add depth and, as noted, human sympathy. I like to see conscript soldiers fleeced by corrupt supply sergeants, or running in terror from an unstoppable Panzer attack, or crying when nuked blind, &c, as much as the next person. (Um, in a non-sociopathic way, that is, but around here I expect people to understand what I mean.)

The problem I would have with those books would be that they appear to take it too far, into parody/comedy. To me, this is not what 40k is about; I entered it in the 2nd Edition days, when there was still a lot of wonky stuff but the background was coalescing into something mostly serious. Are you familiar with Sven Hassel? He wrote some rather good WWII books, which were arguably also "Grimdark", with the humour being honest-seeming and coloured by the dark atmosphere (still portraying more-or-less sympathetic characters in a German penal battalion). But then later in his series he went off the bend and started writing outright light adventure stories, akin to comic scenarios (Wiki compares them to Kelly's Heroes). It just did not fit with where he had taken the setting before.

Or for a less subtle but easier example, one could think of the SST films; the first was skirting parody, the second tried being grimdark, the last one was parody through and through.

Of course, I have not read the Cain books, so I cannot say for sure what they are like, just what my impression from this thread has been. I noticed one at a local used books store; I aim to check that one, just to give it a chance.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2008-09-27 11:21am

consequences wrote:Heck, anyone else remember the FreeBooterz book(I think I got that right). Failed Genestealer Cult finding an evolutionary dead end in Orkz for the win!

The random, and quite often self-destructive shit was the entire point. Heck. I'll still do random battles of Final Liberation with an entirely Mekboy army just to see what happens.

I particularly liked the possessed Orks. Too strong-willed to be properly possessed, the Ork and Daemon basically argue over who's body it is, while the Daemon tries to get the Ork killed so it can get out of this body and possess something better.