Not Digging that WH40K?

[Shroom Man 777]

Cain is firmly set in 40k, but what do you want us to rant and rave about? We've got enough ranting and raving about grimdark. One of the great parts of Cain is the fact that at the end of the day, you can smile at it all, and that's what we're ranting and raving about right here and now.

He wrote some rather good WWII books, which were arguably also "Grimdark", with the humour being honest-seeming and coloured by the dark atmosphere (still portraying more-or-less sympathetic characters in a German penal battalion).

This is what the Cain stories are about. The humor isn't contreived too much, the characterization of our Friendly Neighborhood Imperial Commissar is done good, it's colored by the grimdark atmosphere, and it still portrays more-or-less sympathetic characters in the motherfucking Imperium of Man - and even their enemies in the Tau.

[Connor MacLeod]

Hoth really needs to immerse himself in the very early 40K stuff to really appreciate how much humor and absurdity is part of it. He seems to be more familiar with the "modern" 40K where they emphsize the GRIMDARK. And for some reason he's taken it seriously.

I actually managed to look at some of the earyl 40K stuff (including Rogue Trader) before getting really into the Cain novels, which I think helped immensely (as I've noted, many authors seem to favor the very early edition stuff - Graham McNeill is a big one for that as well.) It happens to be one of the reasons I really like the early 40K stuff.

Rogue Trader to me was always the "experimental" stage with the whole game.. its like "lets put a buncha ideas and concepts into a blender and see what comes out." because not long later (late 1st and on their way to second, going by the material I've seen) you started getting the genuine framework for the 40K we eventually had today. Though 2nd edition still had a lot more tech diversity (and in game, alot more technical sophisitcation and ability, especially for groups like the Guard.) The real thing you notice is that they weren't trying as hard to make everyone "distinctive" the way they do now (SPACE MARINES USE LAND RAIDERS! or stuff like that.)

Really the whole emphasis on "distinctiveness" that seems to have crept into 40K has become almost anal-retentive and bizarre, at least to me.

I might add that the whole "distincitveness" schtick and the "serious" GRIMDARK STILL underscore the inherent and deliberate absurdity in 40K - its just so artistically and thematically overdone that it cannot be taken as anything other than parody or propoganda (much like the uplifting primer is, really.) 40K is so blatantly, deliberately over the top (in the way some comics or manga can be, or like the movie Road House you can't help but like it despite how utterly bizarre and goofy it is.

[Connor MacLeod]

Imperial Commissar

While I like Gaunt and Cain, and though they're snappy dressers by virtue of their position, it is still highly unusual to make a pair of fairly compassionate characters Commissars. On the other hand, it is nice to see the 'inspiring lead from the front officer' type; Commissars don't just inspire with fear.

There are lots of "inspiring" Commissar types in the fluff and fiction, not all of them act like assholes or employ "shooting people" a sthe sum total of their reproitoire. They're just not as nice or inspriing as Cain or Gaunt are (more ruthless in fact.)

The whole "Shooting someone for the slightest reason" Commissar seem to be either the inept or the inexperienced in the fluff. In game of course its just more GRIMDARK! (look! if you dont fight youo'll get shot.. OOOOH how GRIM!)

[Darth Nostril]

It's been a very long time since I played 1st edition and the original Space Hulk board game. Changed a lot since then.
You've got to bear in mind the time that WH40K was born in, late 80's/early 90's .... a time of rock and metal, pre-grunge.
It was a tongue in cheek D&D in Spaaaaace with Humans, Orks and Squats(Dwarves).
The music of the time ... gothic was big in rock, not surprising it made it's way into the game.

[Vendetta]

You've got to bear in mind the time that WH40K was born in, late 80's/early 90's .... a time of rock and metal, pre-grunge.

It's also headquartered in Nottingham, which is a city with a noticable population of rockers and metallers still.

[Dark Hellion]

I have to say that I think a lot of complaints about 40K in the debates are misplaced because they are more about sore feelings that actual aesthetic or logical problems. People dislike losing to a silly universe that is still somewhat serious. No one would complain about getting beat by Hitchhikers Guide but for some reason 40K is just serious enough for people to get really pissed when they lose. And the setting itself requires that debates be fielded in arbitrary situations, because the intertangled wars that are constantly fought is so different than SW or ST that have long stretched of peace.

I think people also really dislike how 40K turns arguments into attrition warfare arguments. Attacking Terra is always a great topic to really get people feeling all pissy because it is a planet designed to take the SW/40K level of firepower for immense periods of time and turn conflicts into room by room crawls. A lot of opponents are very pissed that it gives 40k such a homefield advantage, ignoring the fact that thousands of years went into building its defensive networks to such a point. This was IPs complaint and yet it isn't the debaters that are putting it in their favor, this is specifically part of the canon. 40Ks Terra is one of the most over defended planets in all of sci-fi and when you have the level of firepower 40K has this means for silly siege warfare.

40K is orcs and elves in space shooting each other with plasma torpedoes. If that isn't a good time for you, fine. You really aren't forced to read or interact with 40K in any way. But even though you don't like it, they are some big fucking plasma torps. and just arbitrarily pushing your asthetic dislike into the mindless deempowerment and bitching that many 40k detractors have is sillier that Space Orks.

[andrewgpaul]

Rogue Trader to me was always the "experimental" stage with the whole game.. its like "lets put a buncha ideas and concepts into a blender and see what comes out." because not long later (late 1st and on their way to second, going by the material I've seen) you started getting the genuine framework for the 40K we eventually had today. Though 2nd edition still had a lot more tech diversity (and in game, alot more technical sophisitcation and ability, especially for groups like the Guard.) The real thing you notice is that they weren't trying as hard to make everyone "distinctive" the way they do now (SPACE MARINES USE LAND RAIDERS! or stuff like that.)

Really the whole emphasis on "distinctiveness" that seems to have crept into 40K has become almost anal-retentive and bizarre, at least to me.

A lot of the fluff actually derived from the real-world constraints on the games. For example, the Horus Heresy fluff came about because they only had the money to produce a single sprue* - the Warlord Battle Titan - in plastic for the Adeptus Titanicus boxed game. If plastic moulding had been cheaper, or GW had had more money, or they'd gone with cardboard cutouts, just think, the whole 'history' of the Imperium would have been different.

The Rhino being the STC wonder-tank, and the basis for a million and one vehicle types springs from the same constraint, I think. As does the fact that in 1st edition all arms of the Imperium used Rhinos and LAnd Raiders (as did Eldar Harlequins!).

*Yes, the Heresy gets a mention in Rogue Trader, but it's a throwaway single line, with no suggestion that it'd become the defining event for the setting.

[Ford Prefect]

Supersoldiers who are perfect in every respect make for poor storytelling

Where does this impression come from? Yeah, Space Marines are a lot better at fighting than Guardsmen. They're faster, stronger, tougher, they are generally better equipped ... this doesn't translate into 'perfect' or 'necessarily uninteresting'. Surely I'm not the only person who sees there being potentially interesting themes in the notion that the Astartes, bulwark and sword of mankind, aren't really human after their enhancements? Lots of authors portray Space Marines poorly (Soul Drinkers anyone?), but every time they made out as assholish to normal humans I sigh. It seemingly misses the point of Space Marines entirely; I can easily handwave the Dark Angels and their attitudes away with a simple 'we were wracked with traitors, and we are little better than Horus because of it'. Yeah, it's angsty, but so the fuck what? Angst isn't always bad.

I apologise, but this is a personal pet peeve of mine. You're implying that it is impossible for a Space Marine to be a deep, nuanced character compared to a normal human, and I think this is complete bullshit. The quality of a character is determined by how one depicts their personality and development over the course of a story, not their combat abilities. Yeah, they'll be different, but that doesn't mean worse.

There are lots of "inspiring" Commissar types in the fluff and fiction, not all of them act like assholes or employ "shooting people" a sthe sum total of their reproitoire. They're just not as nice or inspriing as Cain or Gaunt are (more ruthless in fact.)

The whole "Shooting someone for the slightest reason" Commissar seem to be either the inept or the inexperienced in the fluff. In game of course its just more GRIMDARK! (look! if you dont fight youo'll get shot.. OOOOH how GRIM!)

Gaunt's 'Do you want to live forever!' is appropriate. I think fear should always be in the arsenal of a Commissar*, but at the same time there is a reason why they dress in badass longcoats and have such amazing hats: because it looks pretty awesome when charging into battle. ??Yeah, Commissars shoot people, but they (usually) also lead by example, by jumping into the jaws of danger (where appropriate).

*'Let me ask you a question, Trooper. Who do you fear more? Them? Or me?'

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I feel the need to pitch in my wholehearted agreement with Ford. Space Marines are not perfect, nor are they overpowered wank within the context of their setting.

Personally, I also find the theme of "Thin (insert color here) Line Between Humanity and Annihilation... but are they even human?" very interesting and possessed of significant untapped potential. Few authors, if any, have really explored Astartes, as most seem either unable or just too entrenched in keeping them as two-dimensional action heroes (not that that's necessarily a bad thing in and of itself... they are the Duke Nukems, Arnold Schwarzeneggers, and John Rambos of the 41st millenium, after all).

[Aaron]

I found the first four Space Wolf novels to be an excellent portrayl. Along with Brothers of the Snake, examples of how to do SM's well. Perfect, yet imperfect. A terrible example was definitely Soul Drinkers, they were two dimensional and the Chapter should have been executed for gross negligence and stupidity.

BTW: has anyone caught the Incredible Hulk reference in Eisenhorn?

[Ford Prefect]

I feel the need to pitch in my wholehearted agreement with Ford. Space Marines are not perfect, nor are they overpowered wank within the context of their setting.

Personally, I also find the theme of "Thin (insert color here) Line Between Humanity and Annihilation... but are they even human?" very interesting and possessed of significant untapped potential. Few authors, if any, have really explored Astartes, as most seem either unable or just too entrenched in keeping them as two-dimensional action heroes (not that that's necessarily a bad thing in and of itself... they are the Duke Nukems, Arnold Schwarzeneggers, and John Rambos of the 41st millenium, after all).

I think of the retelling of the First War for Armageddon, and Brother Captain Aurellian. His callous decapitation of a Bloodthirster was totally awesome, and his struggle to defeat Angron was kind of harrowing in how hopelessly outmatched he was. Yet his willingness, and the willingness of his men, to ensure enternal damnation to defeat him was incredibly heroic. It was only a short piece, but there was enough characterisation there to make him memorable.

Just by virtue of being a Space Marine, you can make a character interesting. Back when Black Library was looking for Space Marine themed submissions, my initial idea was about an Ultramarine who still had human relatives alive, and what the interaction between a human and his giant, altered brother was like. It might be a little pretentious, but I still think the 'what is a man?' theme is still worthwhile to explore.

[SylasGaunt]

I found the first four Space Wolf novels to be an excellent portrayl. Along with Brothers of the Snake, examples of how to do SM's well. Perfect, yet imperfect. A terrible example was definitely Soul Drinkers, they were two dimensional and the Chapter should have been executed for gross negligence and stupidity.

BTW: has anyone caught the Incredible Hulk reference in Eisenhorn?

I haven't finished it but that second one always made me wonder if Dan Abnett sat down and watched that commercial with Michael Bay demanding things to be awesome before making them explode. That was the one where a unit of marines butchers so many dark eldar in that when one of them drops his helmet it floats away wasn't it?

[Peptuck]

I found the first four Space Wolf novels to be an excellent portrayl. Along with Brothers of the Snake, examples of how to do SM's well. Perfect, yet imperfect. A terrible example was definitely Soul Drinkers, they were two dimensional and the Chapter should have been executed for gross negligence and stupidity.

BTW: has anyone caught the Incredible Hulk reference in Eisenhorn?

I haven't finished it but that second one always made me wonder if Dan Abnett sat down and watched that commercial with Michael Bay demanding things to be awesome before making them explode. That was the one where a unit of marines butchers so many dark eldar in that when one of them drops his helmet it floats away wasn't it?

I think that was Tactica Imperialis; itdoes have a short story in it that details a group of Iron Snakes slaugthering most of an entire Dark Eldar Cabal.

[Aaron]

I haven't finished it but that second one always made me wonder if Dan Abnett sat down and watched that commercial with Michael Bay demanding things to be awesome before making them explode. That was the one where a unit of marines butchers so many dark eldar in that when one of them drops his helmet it floats away wasn't it?

In Brothers of the Snake? I don't recall that bit but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Aaron]

I think that was Tactica Imperialis; itdoes have a short story in it that details a group of Iron Snakes slaugthering most of an entire Dark Eldar Cabal.

Well this is the Chapter from which a single junior Battle Brother kills of a couple squads of Dark Elder by hiimself while hampered with protecting a civve. With the aid of a dog.

[Shroom Man 777]

40K is so blatantly, deliberately over the top (in the way some comics or manga can be, or like the movie Road House you can't help but like it despite how utterly bizarre and goofy it is.

I love that movie. Particularly when Patrick Swayze rips a man's throat out and wades in water with an erection.

Oh, and Space Marines do make cool characters. Like that Space Marine who sacrificed himself and exploded to save Eisenhorn, or the one who jotted down Eisenhorn's notes with a TINY pencil (in relation to his HUEG Space Marine hands) and gave Eisenhorn a fancy boltgun or something.

But I do think guys like the Blood Angels are totally bleh. Oooh! Vampires!

(Lord Dante is still a cool cat, though. And Mephiston.)

[Darth Nostril]

You've got to bear in mind the time that WH40K was born in, late 80's/early 90's .... a time of rock and metal, pre-grunge.

It's also headquartered in Nottingham, which is a city with a noticable population of rockers and metallers still.

I was living in Liverpool '91 to '94, sharing a house with a motley crew, Mancunians to Matlos to Scousers to Boltonarians ....
Warhammer, Space Hulk, Werewolf the Apocalypse, Vampire the Masquerade, Shadowrun editions I & II, D&D:Ravenloft, Battlemech ..... it was a good time for gaming.
Memories of sitting in the kitchen painting an entire squad of Space Marines purple and silver for the hell of it before starting an all-nighter of Vampire with my Tremayne with a stutter

[PainRack]

But I do think guys like the Blood Angels are totally bleh. Oooh! Vampires!

(Lord Dante is still a cool cat, though. And Mephiston.)

Oh come on..... The fluff about the Blood Angels is one of the better executed in the game. The curse of Sanguinius and etc.
Not too sure about how the novels treat them but they're cool. Much better than the Space Wolves fangs.

[Zablorg]

I'm just wondering, is all this silly GRIMDARK as the human condition is now through successive retconns, or are the new editions simply putting more of a spin on the grimdark that was already there?

Kind of like the opposite of old people rambling on about the good old days. Or something?

[Keevan_Colton]

Even back in 2nd edition the tag line on the box was "In the grim darkness of the future there is only war."

Grimdark right on the cover of the box

[NecronLord]

Even back in 2nd edition the tag line on the box was "In the grim darkness of the future there is only war."

Grimdark right on the cover of the box

Yeah, but nothing to the same degree. Now, there is literally no hope of beating the tyranids alone, never mind everything else. Though Cain's Last Stand seems to imply that by 37.M42, they're no longer a fighting the nids (Cain's Last Stand spoiler...)

[Block]

Why is there no hope of defeating the 'Nids alone? Sure there's a ton of them, but there's always been a ton of them.

[Ender]

Yeah, Commissars shoot people, but they (usually) also lead by example, by jumping into the jaws of danger (where appropriate).

Pssh. Your commissars maybe. Mine have the good sense to try and run away or duck whenever possible. They just have to poor luck to get even deeper in the mess while trying to keep their skin intact.

[Falkenhayn]

Why is there no hope of defeating the 'Nids alone? Sure there's a ton of them, but there's always been a ton of them.

That's exactly why. GW took the 3rd Edition fluff, threw in a few more "Leviathan" sized hive fleets, then made all the hive fleets bigger as a general matter. So now it's betting man's odds on whether the Tyranids will eat the IoM before the Necrons finish subverting...well...everything.

Of course, GW realized recently that the universe is supposed to be desperated, not completely fucking hopeless, so they're changing the 'cron fluff. They are much more decentralized now, an the C'Tan were nerfed.

[Peptuck]

Why is there no hope of defeating the 'Nids alone? Sure there's a ton of them, but there's always been a ton of them.

That's exactly why. GW took the 3rd Edition fluff, threw in a few more "Leviathan" sized hive fleets, then made all the hive fleets bigger as a general matter. So now it's betting man's odds on whether the Tyranids will eat the IoM before the Necrons finish subverting...well...everything.

More than that, I think. IIRC, 4th edition Tyranids Codex has Kryptmann theorizing that there are more Hive Fleets than the Imperium has planets.