How old are the Borg?

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2003-01-29 07:44am

Forgive me if this has been already debated...

How old are the Borg? Some sources put them at 1000s of years (probe)...while others, namely Voyager (that episode where Vgr wakes up an army on a irradiated planet - I forget the name) state that 900 years ago they were a piddling little race...

Can anyone shed some light?

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-01-29 09:53am

DocHorror wrote:Forgive me if this has been already debated...

How old are the Borg? Some sources put them at 1000s of years (probe)...while others, namely Voyager (that episode where Vgr wakes up an army on a irradiated planet - I forget the name) state that 900 years ago they were a piddling little race...

Can anyone shed some light?

Yes, looks like the writers really made another fuck up there, in "Q who" Guinan says their technology has been evolving for "hundreds of centuries" or something like that, then in that Voyager episode they say how 900 years ago "They only controlled a handful of star systems" How many stars in a handful?

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-01-29 10:08am

I'd say several thousand years atleast.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-01-29 11:01am

In ST:G, Guinan's people (and Soran) were refugees from the Borg when they got caught in the Nexus ribbon.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2003-01-29 01:22pm

Warspite wrote:In ST:G, Guinan's people (and Soran) were refugees from the Borg when they got caught in the Nexus ribbon.

I've always wondered why the fuck they didn't warn the federation so they'd actually be ready when the shit hit the fan.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-01-29 01:32pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:
Warspite wrote:In ST:G, Guinan's people (and Soran) were refugees from the Borg when they got caught in the Nexus ribbon.
I've always wondered why the fuck they didn't warn the federation so they'd actually be ready when the shit hit the fan.

Uh... Well, you see, they were very old, and had this code of non-interferance with the younger races, and then the Vorlons came warning about the rain of pebbles, and stuff, and then...

Actually, I think it's better to chalk it up to Berman... Don't think about it too much, just like Guinan being in the Nexus and knowing what goes on in the real world...

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-01-29 01:37pm

Warspite wrote:
Crazy_Vasey wrote:
Warspite wrote:In ST:G, Guinan's people (and Soran) were refugees from the Borg when they got caught in the Nexus ribbon.
I've always wondered why the fuck they didn't warn the federation so they'd actually be ready when the shit hit the fan.
Uh... Well, you see, they were very old, and had this code of non-interferance with the younger races, and then the Vorlons came warning about the rain of pebbles, and stuff, and then...

Actually, I think it's better to chalk it up to Berman... Don't think about it too much, just like Guinan being in the Nexus and knowing what goes on in the real world...

I wouldn't try to understand B&B's logic about races.....it'll only make your head explode...

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-01-29 01:39pm

Piss on Berman Trek. I'll take Guinan's "Q Who?" figure over whatever ass cheese Voyager tried to feed us.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-29 02:41pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:
Warspite wrote:In ST:G, Guinan's people (and Soran) were refugees from the Borg when they got caught in the Nexus ribbon.
I've always wondered why the fuck they didn't warn the federation so they'd actually be ready when the shit hit the fan.

The might well have and the Federation being pussies don't take action until the Borg came and kicked in the front door as it were.

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2003-01-29 03:13pm

According to the Voyager episode "Dragon's Teeth", The Borg were present (although not a major force) when the Vaadwaur were still around, this makes The Borg at least 900 years old (which was stated by Gedrin in his conversation with Seven Of Nine in sickbay).

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2003-01-29 03:19pm

Thats the episode I was on about...I only caught a bit of it before I went to work one morning last week...

Doesnt he say that they only had a handful of worlds? As someone above rightly said, how much is a handful?

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-01-29 05:59pm

DocHorror wrote:Thats the episode I was on about...I only caught a bit of it before I went to work one morning last week...

Doesnt he say that they only had a handful of worlds? As someone above rightly said, how much is a handful?

I think he said something along those lines, but the Vaadwaur themselves hardly controlled the galaxy. They probably had no clue just how many systems the Borg actually controlled 900 years ago, if that's necessarily relevant (we don't know where the Borg actually come from). We know that a single system power in Star Trek can be staggeringly powerful, after all; e.g. Cardassia under Dominion control (implied in "What You Leave Behind"), the planet that underwent accelerated time in VGR, the planet in "Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy," etc.

Guinan said the Borg had "been evolving for thousands of centuries." That does not necessarily mean they'd been assimilating other races or even space-faring for such a period. And interestingly enough, many of the species the Borg mention (Ferengi, Species 180) were in fact encountered
within the last few hundred years.

So maybe the Vaadwaur guy was partly right. I wouldn't jump to lots of conclusions about the lesser age being indicative of weakness, necessarily, but it would've been nice if those cocksuckers in charge of VGR had some continuity police pouring over the scripts. Some people who don't give a shit about sci-fi think that sort of thing is just for nerds, but it's actually all about maintaining the suspension of disbelief. Who can maintain that when in one episode, they're told the sky is green, and three eps. down the line, they're told it's bright orange?

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2003-01-29 06:04pm

You have some good points seanrobertson and I just got thinking...

Do you people have any personal theories as to how The Borg came-about? My personal top-2 are; A.) Overdeveloped AI takes control (terminator/matrix style) and B.) Forced "evolution" by a species with some fucked-up ideals

Ideas?

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-01-29 06:32pm

I would have to estimate at least 10,000. You have to be that old for a single race with only warp or transwarp tech to conquer and cement their hold on so many races and systems. Plus, the Probe from ST IV is a few thousand years old and it was attacked a long way from the Borg's epicenter, I think. I could be wrong as the assholes at Paramount won't put out a Borg backstory, which I would just get the jest of from this site.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-01-29 07:19pm

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:You have some good points seanrobertson and I just got thinking...

Do you people have any personal theories as to how The Borg came-about? My personal top-2 are; A.) Overdeveloped AI takes control (terminator/matrix style) and B.) Forced "evolution" by a species with some fucked-up ideals

Ideas?

You honor me

(small bow...)

The beginnings of the Borg Collective are truly the stuff of good science-fiction...I'd probably go with A, myself. But B has promise, too. The Borg seem to think that the wholly "synthetic" does not constitute "perfection"; otherwise, even the pinnacle of the Collective, the Queen herself, would be completely robotic. Instead, she's more like a Terminator: organic shell and technological innards.

Like Howard Stern said years ago, I dig the Borg. I wanted them to retain their teeth throughout VGR. Unlike some people I don't necessarily think the introduction of a Queen necessarily ruins the premise (but then again, I think it was...less than encouraging?). They're still a force of nature so to speak. But it is rather unfortunate that they were used as little more than an obstacle in ST: Voyager...they could have been so much more.

Of course, even in my very favorite sci-fi series, ST:TNG (long story), the vision of what made the Borg so lethal was somewhat compromised. Originally, the Borg were to be the "devil" to Q's unreliable "god," a premise which still could have been realized in TNG season four. That's not to say it was entirely downhill from there...Trek had some stunning moments in the time between "BoBW" and "Enterprise." But geez...how cool would it have been to show the Federation truly threatened? Truly under the guns of something on the order of the Galactic Empire?

I am officially drunk now. The room isn't spinning but I have gone back and corrected about 20 typos now (hey, I type fast...maybe I should be someone's typist). Thus, regard me with a grain of salt at this point

But...I was serious about the honoring. Someone who can drift through all of my junk alone deserves a nod

I got'ch your back in the future.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-01-30 05:48am

The story I concocted was that there was an war on the Borg homeworld, so one government started creating cyborgs to fight with, they won, then increased the army size, then used them so that the govt could put chips in people, because no-one could stand against the cyborg army. Then the commander of the army, (now the Borg Queen), led a coup against the government, several thousand years later we have the Borg.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-01-30 06:45am

As has been previously stated, there is no reason that Guinan's remark in "Q Who?" and the figure mentioned in "Dragon's Teeth".

In the first place, Guinan only states that the Borg has been "evolving" for thousands of centuries; "evolving" need not necessarily be construed as to mean "aggressively expanding". Furthermore, it is not necessary that the Borg Collective actually control planets; the more current idea of the Borg assimilating species into the Collective en masse is not present in the earlier Borg-related episodes.

E.g., the Borg is interested solely in the Enterprise-D in "Q Who?", and only kidnap Captain Picard in order to assimilate his knowledge and to provide itself with a spokesman (the aptly named Locutus of Borg) -- and even then, extensive surgery and even genetic manipulation was necessary to integrate him into the Collective.

It appears clear that some time between the early stories and First Contact, something about the Borg changed, not limited strictly to the introduction of non-surgical assimilation -- the emphasis has changed. Whereas earlier, only the Enterprise itself was interesting to the Borg, the Borg now is willing to eradicate that technology in order to assimilate humanity (as seen in First Contact -- prevention of first contact would mean that all that interesting technology would never develop).

Perhaps a side-effect of assimilating new life forms into the Collective is that it can have a significant effect on its consciousness. If, for example, the Collective assimilated a drastically foreign intelligence, might it possibly alter the Collective itself? If the Collective assimilated a particularly potent intellect, such as the Emperor's, could it not be the case that the said intellect would substantially change the way the Collective thinks?

If this is the case, then this could explain why the Borg underwent so drastic a change prior to First Contact.

It could also be the case that, 900 years before "Dragon's Teeth", the Borg had not yet decided to aggressively expand throughout space, or that the Borg were aggressively expanding, but were taking only technology, and, as Q described them, had no interest in holding territory or controlling worlds. Thus, it would be correct to say that they controlled only "a handful".

Or, another thing to consider: The debacle with Species 8472 revealed a particularly interesting datum, viz., that the Borg pursue interdimensional expansionism as well as intragalactic. Given that this is the case, is it not also possible that the Borg simply do not originate in "this" dimension? Could it not be that the Borg are foreigners to this plane of existence, and did not develop "here" at all?

If this were the case, then it is quite possible that the Borg Collective has been "evolving" for thousands of centuries, and only just arrived in "this" dimension 900 years before "Dragon's Teeth". After all, might not it have been said of the English pilgrims at Plymouth that they controlled very little land, but that their culture had been developing for sixteen centuries?

Publius

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2003-01-30 07:07am

Maybe they assimilated an alien version of Hitler lol.

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2003-01-30 07:56am

Publius wrote: Or, another thing to consider: The debacle with Species 8472 revealed a particularly interesting datum, viz., that the Borg pursue interdimensional expansionism as well as intragalactic. Given that this is the case, is it not also possible that the Borg simply do not originate in "this" dimension? Could it not be that the Borg are foreigners to this plane of existence, and did not develop "here" at all?

If this were the case, then it is quite possible that the Borg Collective has been "evolving" for thousands of centuries, and only just arrived in "this" dimension 900 years before "Dragon's Teeth". After all, might not it have been said of the English pilgrims at Plymouth that they controlled very little land, but that their culture had been developing for sixteen centuries?

Publius

One thing for sure is that your theory would make for a very interesting fan fic! Keep them coming.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-01-30 09:14pm

The age of the Borg does not concern me enough to waste countless brain cells watching Voyager to find an answer.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-02-01 03:46am

Taking into account the age of ST:TNG and when "Q, Who" aired, Im guessing between 10-12 years.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-02-03 03:18pm

Older than that. According to The Return by Shatner and the Gar-Stevens V'Ger from TMP was assimilated by an early version of the collective and the black hole it fell into was actually a Trans Warp Conduit.

Depends on how high ST values EU on how you reguard this.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

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