[WH40K] Grey Knights vs Thousand Sons

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'm not entirely familiar with the psyker powers of either Space Marine Chapter/Legion, but how would either Space Marine Chapter/Legion perform if they threw themselves at each other? Understandably, many of the Thousand Sons are nothing more than a shell of themselves and their sorcerers have the most formidable control of the warp among all the Traitor Legions, but how would the Grey Knights compare?

[Ford Prefect]

Psycannons + psykers = crying psykers. Obviously this is a 'by degrees' thing, but I would be hard pressed to say that the Ordo Hereticus would be any better at killing psykers than the Malleus (who are overtly the most powerful, as I recall). Honestly, a company of Grey Knight Terminators basically killed Angron and twelve Bloodthirsters, though they died to the man. The Thousand Sons do not have the benefit of numbers, either.

[haard]

I would think that the fact that the GK have displayed awesome resistance to all kinds of warp sorcery would kind of make this a one-sided affair - it has been said before that they are to other space marines as other SMs are to the IG.

IIRC the Thousand Suns is also focused on illusion and trickery, and (I think from what I remember from the novels) that the GK would more or less ignore illusions.

[Ford Prefect]

I would think that the fact that the GK have displayed awesome resistance to all kinds of warp sorcery would kind of make this a one-sided affair - it has been said before that they are to other space marines as other SMs are to the IG.

This is a silly, and frankly pretty wrong, comparison. More recent fluff indicates that their more powerful psychic abilities require multiple Grey Knights working together; they're not all Space Marine Librarians. They are somewhat better equipped, though they are built around their specific role as daemon hunters - even the Death Watch is tactically more flexible. They're pretty amazing, especially when it comes to killing daemons, but they're not Adeptus Custodes.

[Chris OFarrell]

Yeah.

The Grey Knights are utterly brilliant IN THEIR AREAS of expertise, but they are not the be all and end all. They are anti-daemon specialists, NOT generalists. I daresay they would be far less effective against many of the other threats then 'regular' marines. I'd take a squad of 'regular' Ultramarines against a Nid hoard then a squad of Grey Knights, no questions asked, as an example.
Now against Daemons, there is no-one ELSE I would take, but they get to br this good by being the BEST at that ONE specific task, again, specialists means just that.

I also frankly think the Custodes are probably a little overrated. For the most part after all, they are glorified bodyguards. I'm sure they train non stop and so on and they are well equipped, but that is not a substitute for real experience. The 'average' vet Space Marine may well have hundreds of years of experience fighting countless Xenos threats from the Necrons to the Nids, thats just something you dont' get sitting around Terra.

I also can't be sure, but I think Games Workshop have 'dumbed down' the Custodes a little in recent times, encouraging anyone who wants to play them to use Grey Knights rules as a valid representation of their strength and prowess.

Now in regards to the Thousand Sons, the Grey Knights are probably damn near the best force the Imperium has to go up against them. No questions asked. But its not going to be a walk in the park either.

[Azazal]

If you go by fluff and and not table top rules, the Grey Knights will just need to kill the sorcerers. Rank and file 1000 Sons are mere automatons now, souls trapped in their armor, with out a sorcerer to guild them, they become static shells. Given that the sorcerers are very powerful psychers and the Grey Knight have a nice selection of weapons design to kill powerful psychers, well I think we can see where this is leading.

[Ford Prefect]

I also frankly think the Custodes are probably a little overrated. For the most part after all, they are glorified bodyguards. I'm sure they train non stop and so on and they are well equipped, but that is not a substitute for real experience. The 'average' vet Space Marine may well have hundreds of years of experience fighting countless Xenos threats from the Necrons to the Nids, thats just something you dont' get sitting around Terra.

They might be; I doubt that the current ten thousand is the same ten thousand from the Heresy. At the same time, I don't think it's right to call the personal guard of the Emperor, who actually proved themselves to be basically superior to Space Marines in the Heresy 'glorified bodyguards'. As far as I know, none of their recruitment practices are known, so they might well train by going off and fighting battles in the little known corners of the galaxy, but that would be pure speculation on my part.

Now in regards to the Thousand Sons, the Grey Knights are probably damn near the best force the Imperium has to go up against them. No questions asked. But its not going to be a walk in the park either.

Some sort of Culexus taskforce would be the best for taking out the sorcerors, but getting rid of the actual Sons themselves would be a task left to the guys with tanks and Dreadies.

[haard]

I would think that the fact that the GK have displayed awesome resistance to all kinds of warp sorcery would kind of make this a one-sided affair - it has been said before that they are to other space marines as other SMs are to the IG.

This is a silly, and frankly pretty wrong, comparison. More recent fluff indicates that their more powerful psychic abilities require multiple Grey Knights working together; they're not all Space Marine Librarians.

What I was trying to say was not that they were Librarians, but that they can resist warp sorcery, and that has been shown to work for individuals just as well as groups (IIRC - don't have the books here for reference). Since that would limit if not outright negate the TS:s greatest asset, I'd still say the matchup is heavily to the GK:s favor.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Would the Grey Knights be capable of banishing some of the more persistent characters among the Thousand Sons for good? I read in the White Wolf Ominbus that there's this character Madox who keeps reincarnating.

[Lord Revan]

Would the Grey Knights be capable of banishing some of the more persistent characters among the Thousand Sons for good? I read in the White Wolf Ominbus that there's this character Madox who keeps reincarnating.

I think it depends on a)what exectly said person is b)how powerfull he is c)and how powerfull said GKs are.

for example it's doutfull Grey Knights could permanently banish a powerfull daemon prince or greater daemon.

[NecronLord]

I also frankly think the Custodes are probably a little overrated. For the most part after all, they are glorified bodyguards. I'm sure they train non stop and so on and they are well equipped, but that is not a substitute for real experience. The 'average' vet Space Marine may well have hundreds of years of experience fighting countless Xenos threats from the Necrons to the Nids, thats just something you dont' get sitting around Terra.

We're assuming the Custodes aren't all the same ones that fought in the Heresy, and that they don't ever send their members out to the front lines.

I also can't be sure, but I think Games Workshop have 'dumbed down' the Custodes a little in recent times, encouraging anyone who wants to play them to use Grey Knights rules as a valid representation of their strength and prowess.

Quite the opposite. Custodes used to almost be a joke - wandering around in underpants, 300 style... It's only recently there's been any confirmation that they're superior to Space Marines.

For the record, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence together had a 5:1 kill ratio against Thousand Sons in the clensing of Prospero, despite the Sons being dug in. But there seem to be no Sisters of Silence any more.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Are the Grey Knights known to bring heavy armour to the field? Given that they have most of the equipment a Space Marine Chapter would have, it's a bit strange to not even have some Predators, albeit optimised for daemon slaying.

[Darth Tanner]

Are the Grey Knights known to bring heavy armour to the field? Given that they have most of the equipment a Space Marine Chapter would have, it's a bit strange to not even have some Predators, albeit optimised for daemon slaying.

Why would they have the equipment of a normal chapter? Their specialised for the assassination of demons not the regular battlefield. Dreadnoughts are the only support weapons they have as far as I know.

For the record, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence together had a 5:1 kill ratio against Thousand Sons in the clensing of Prospero, despite the Sons being dug in.

I thought the Space Wolves purged Prospero and that the Thousands Sons were specifically mentioned as being lax in deploying defensive weapons to defend their world, focusing on their studies instead.

Would the Grey Knights be capable of banishing some of the more persistent characters among the Thousand Sons for good? I read in the White Wolf Ominbus that there's this character Madox who keeps reincarnating.

In the Space Wolf books the entire Thousand Sons legion can reincarnate once defeated, even those killed on Prospero. Their souls go to the warp and can be brought back through arcane rituals. The entire legion could have been brought back from the dead there and then if their use of a Space Wolf artefact had succeeded. The fact that Madox reincarnates several times without this ritual shows that at least some of the legion can come back from the dead without a major holy relic.

They might be; I doubt that the current ten thousand is the same ten thousand from the Heresy.

I don't think they can recruit any new foot soldiers and them still be Thousand Sons due to the rubric, but they might be able to recruit sorcerers.

[Azazal]

Are the Grey Knights known to bring heavy armour to the field? Given that they have most of the equipment a Space Marine Chapter would have, it's a bit strange to not even have some Predators, albeit optimised for daemon slaying.

Why would they have the equipment of a normal chapter? Their specialised for the assassination of demons not the regular battlefield. Dreadnoughts are the only support weapons they have as far as I know.

They can field Land Raiders as well, and if they have an Deamon hunter Inquisitor with them, the Inquisitor usually brings along he personal guard that is equipped with Chimeras and other guard equipment.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Grey Knights will be hell on sorcerers and daemons, but they also have to deal with the rank and file and the Thousand Son's war slaves and machines. The Sorcerers aren't morons and they have no shortage of battle fodder to engage the Grey Knights with in their place. A mixed force of Space Marines and Grey Knights would do better, with the Astartes engaging the shells, thralls, and machines while the Grey Knights target the sorcerers.

[Bedlam]

For the record, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence together had a 5:1 kill ratio against Thousand Sons in the clensing of Prospero, despite the Sons being dug in.

I thought the Space Wolves purged Prospero and that the Thousands Sons were specifically mentioned as being lax in deploying defensive weapons to defend their world, focusing on their studies instead.

More recent full mostly from the visions of Heresy series states that the Emperor send a portion of his Custodes with the space wolves to secure Prospero and bring back Magnus. Its mostly this series that's mentioned anything about the Custodes at all and painted them as super marines. Previously they were hardly mentioned at all.

[Lancer]

The Grey Knights will be hell on sorcerers and daemons, but they also have to deal with the rank and file and the Thousand Son's war slaves and machines. The Sorcerers aren't morons and they have no shortage of battle fodder to engage the Grey Knights with in their place. A mixed force of Space Marines and Grey Knights would do better, with the Astartes engaging the shells, thralls, and machines while the Grey Knights target the sorcerers.

The armaments of the Grey Knights should be more than adequate for dealing with rank & file Thousand Sons. Functionally, they're little different from very weak daemons (their physical coherency is maintained by spells of binding to the suits of armor they inhabit), and psycannon bolt rounds are quite effective at putting down Thousand Sons, getting one-shot kills against the rank & file.

[Connor MacLeod]

Checking IA2, the GK seem to have Land Raiders for at least the 1st, 2nd, and 5th Companies as far as I can tell, so I would assume all companies have at least some. And of course they have Thunderhawks. No idea if they use Rhinos, but presumably so given tis mentioned that despite being a Chambers Militant, they are organized along the lines of other Astartes Chapters and its implied they use similar equipment.

Equipment wise I recall GK's using storm bolters as standard as well as their Force weapons (Even the power-armoured marines) and their equipment is generally of better quality (as well as being shielded against warp phenomena of course) It could be that their innate psychic abilities also lend them some improved abilities even if they aren't Librarians.

[Imperial Overlord]

The armaments of the Grey Knights should be more than adequate for dealing with rank & file Thousand Sons. Functionally, they're little different from very weak daemons (their physical coherency is maintained by spells of binding to the suits of armor they inhabit), and psycannon bolt rounds are quite effective at putting down Thousand Sons, getting one-shot kills against the rank & file.

Sure pyscannon bolts will work on the shells, but even the Grey Knights have limited numbers of those. The shells can shoot back just fine and most Grey Knights don't have psycannons. Killing the shells with storm bolters will take some doing. The rank and file of the Thousands Sons numbers in the thousands and that's not counting their war slaves. I haven't heard of the Grey Knights having good heavy weapon support and the fact that their limited number of psycannons are quite effective against the shells doesn't change the fact they'll have to get that close. Advancing through heavy bolter fire sucks and the Thousand Sons will throw the sink at them.

As a side note, how effective are psycannons against Defilers?

[Ford Prefect]

We're assuming the Custodes aren't all the same ones that fought in the Heresy, and that they don't ever send their members out to the front lines.

Is that even possible? The Emperor was pretty awesome at genetic engineering, but how reasonable would it be for the Custodes to be actually immortal?

I don't think they can recruit any new foot soldiers and them still be Thousand Sons due to the rubric, but they might be able to recruit sorcerers.

I was referring to the Adeptus Custodes.

The rank and file of the Thousands Sons numbers in the thousands and that's not counting their war slaves.

Do they? The name 'Thousand Sons' might be a misnomer, but their Index Astartes article indicates that Emperor showed MAgnus a vision of the legion made for him, numbering only a thousand.

[NecronLord]

We're assuming the Custodes aren't all the same ones that fought in the Heresy, and that they don't ever send their members out to the front lines.

Is that even possible? The Emperor was pretty awesome at genetic engineering, but how reasonable would it be for the Custodes to be actually immortal?

Bjorn the Fell Handed was alive at that time, so it's certainly possible to sustain a Marine's life. There's been some (probably incorrect, given Iacton Qurze) conjecture about Space Marines being able to live forever, too. If Custodes have that to a higher degree...

Though for all we know, and we really know next to nothing about them, the vast majority of them may while away the centuries in stasis like their master.

I don't think they can recruit any new foot soldiers and them still be Thousand Sons due to the rubric, but they might be able to recruit sorcerers.

I was referring to the Adeptus Custodes.

The Thousand Sons can and do recruit - they attempt to turn Captain Lexandro in Chaos Child, though whether he would have become a sorcerer (mentioned) in time, or ever become an empty shell is unknown, of course. I would not be surprised if the rubric could be repeated with unwilling suplicants to gain more recruits, albeit at some horrible cost in sacrifices.

[Aaron]

Does Madox not attempt to recruit Ragnar several times, starting at the first meeting on Fenris? Or am I reading too much into it?

[andrewgpaul]

Bjorn the Fell Handed was alive at that time, so it's certainly possible to sustain a Marine's life. There's been some (probably incorrect, given Iacton Qurze) conjecture about Space Marines being able to live forever, too. If Custodes have that to a higher degree...

Longevity differs between Chapters; the Blood Angels are apparently longer-lived than other chapters. It's possible the same was true for the original legions; perhaps Luna Wolvs simply didn't last as long as others.

[Cykeisme]

I would not be surprised if the rubric could be repeated with unwilling suplicants to gain more recruits, albeit at some horrible cost in sacrifices.

Although I'm sure Magnus could replicate the Rubric ritual that Ahriman first cast, I doubt he would allow anyone to actually do that.
The actual effects of the Rubric were unforeseen, unintended and considered tragic (hence the banishing of Ahriman).

The rank and file of the Thousands Sons numbers in the thousands and that's not counting their war slaves.

I'm not sure if this actually indicates anything, but the name of the legion is "Thousand Sons", not Thousands. It's possible that there are only a thousand that are constantly being reincar
However, as Ford Prefect pointed out, the name might be a misnomer anyway.

I'd have to agree with your direct response to the OP.. it sounds more efficient for conventional Astartes forces (if any Astartes could be called conventional!) to engage the ghost shells and other troops while Grey Knights move directly on the sorcerers and any daemons they might have summoned.

[Manus Celer Dei]

As a side note, how effective are psycannons against Defilers?

Aren't Defilers controlled by a daemon? It'd probably fuck one up pretty well, I think.