Anybody got a decent take on this ?

smokemare · Post by **smokemare** » 2003-01-30 08:06am

Envy
Station Member posted 01-29-2003 08:42 AM user search report post
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right, ill try this again... had a bit of trouble postin due to database update...

i also had a nice long mathmatical explaination about what im about to claim, but you can do ythe maths yourselves... im not typing it again...

if the tactical display in the rebel base on yavin is accurate, and to scale, thenm work out the size of the gas giant, by the known size of the death star, hence from that its associated orbital path length...

the death star travels at abou 2.77Km/s for the last 5 mins of its journey to get a firing solution on the moon of yavin...

also...

the slingshot thing...

it would keep accelerating if its engines could output more driving force than the atmospheric friction and gravitational forces of the plents oposing its travel...

the slingshot? well it does make sense... the physics of circular motion and all that...

also... why did the death star not orbit clockwise arround the gas giant? it could have been in firing range within 5 minutes of enterint the rebel sensors range... instead of 15...

SanguinousRex
Station Member

posted 01-29-2003 04:55 PM user search report post
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Quote: "a Super Star Destroyer has 1/2 million crew members. the Enterprise(e) has about 700. how the heck can you compare!"
Easy - when the Enterprise blows up the conning tower, bringing the Super Star Destroyer's shields down, then blows it up with a strafing run of Quantum Torpedoes, the Empire has suffered 500,000 casualties, including some very good officers.

Butterbean569
Station Member posted 01-29-2003 05:09 PM user search report post
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Rex...
SSD's have several (more than 2 or 3!) bridges for emergency purposes. Now of course it takes a few minutes for everything to get put into order so the takeover isn't spontaneous. The Executor ran into the Death Star because...well...it didn't have enough time to switch control. Of course you are assuming that quantum torpedoes would penetrate the shielding...but we'll ignore that.

As for the "Full Throttle" debate...

I am not saying they are speaking some rebel code, as you put it. Do you remember when they said "lock S Foils into ATTACK position"? It is easy to make a conjecture that when Luke said "full throttle" in "Attack position", that meant full speed for attacking/manual movement. It is absolutly illogical (as spock would put it) to think that a civilization that can travel the galaxy in days would make a military grade fighter's max speed, no matter what the cirucumstances, 400 m/s! Race cars on earth go faster than that.

*sigh*

Butterbean569
Station Member posted 01-29-2003 06:21 PM user search report post
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Well now that I think of it...maybe not race cars exactly (except for those jet cars that race in the deserts or whatever).

Zuluknight
Station Member posted 01-29-2003 07:40 PM user search report post
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Startrek is the most, powerful name known to man. The Enterprise-E carries a load of quantum torpedoes that can destroy a borg ship(which by the way is the strongest ship in the galaxy) If a few torpedos could do that to a borg ship, what do you think they could do to a Start Destroyer with no shields hmmmm????

Zuluknight
Station Member posted 01-29-2003 07:46 PM user search report post
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Also, what the heck do you think a weak lill X-wing could do against a type 9 phaser on a Federation Starship. So many rebel ships get destroyed in a battel with the empieres weakist ships. Do you really think they will stand a chance against the Federation??

XplOrOrOr
Station Member

posted 01-29-2003 07:54 PM user search report post
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When is this topic going to die and stay dead? LOL!
It dies and respawns again and again!

BTW everyone knows Battlestar Galactica owns Star Trek

Zuluknight
Station Member posted 01-29-2003 07:57 PM user search report post
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Naaaaa, not even

Zuluknight
Station Member posted 01-29-2003 07:58 PM user search report post
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Startek is Superior in every way. Not saying I dont like starwars but I like startrek more...

SanguinousRex
Station Member

posted 01-29-2003 08:46 PM user search report post
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I was watching season 7 of Star Trek (yes I own seasons 1-7 on DVD lol), and they were talking about how they were going to cut through to the core of a planet to start a plasma reaction to give the planet hundreds of more years of life (the core was dying). That means the phaser was cutting THROUGH the planet... that's pretty nifty
Anyway, I know some love Star Wars, some Star Trek, I am a fan of both... but for some reason when I see a Super Star Destroyer vs. the Enterprise (or Enterprise type starship), I see the Enterprise's phasers bringing down the shield generator on the top of the conning tower, and when the shields collapse, the Enterprise would make a straifing run, unloading a salvo of Quantum Torpedoes that would cause the Super Star Destroyer to explore into a big fireball.

Again, I note that the majority of weapons on Star Destroyers are set on the side for ship-to-ship broadsides. The Federation doesn't fight in broadsides, it would fly fast and avoid any broadsides.

Smoke_Mare
Station Member

posted 01-30-2003 01:09 AM user search report post
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*sigh* it's been explained a million times the globe things on the tower are Communication towers, their being destroyed was a sympton of the shields being down. The shields WERE down because the ENTIRE rebel fleet which has similar firing capabilities as Imperial ships.
The computer display with the top down view as seen by the rebels is a tactical display, on any tactical displays even WE use a threat is usually shown larger than in fact it is. If you look a tthe Imperial 3D display it shows the Yavin Gas giant as being much larger.

I agree with butterbean, the idea of 400 m/s is ridiculous as top speed. Why would Dooku's antiquated yacht in EII be capable of at least 1/6th the speed of light - BOTTOM BOOK. Whereas a Combat fighter that developed years later cannot even muster Dooku's ship ? I mean read that's using the most conservative figures possible. Essentially assuming Yoda spends ages standing there tapping his foot and Padme ignoring her poor lover with his severed arm on the floor... Besides if they get more manouverability with the S coils in attack position - what is the point of having two positions if they can travel at the same speed in both ?

Auron1701
Station Member posted 01-30-2003 01:41 AM user search report post
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If your talking about DS9 vs Star Wars, then the Defient would get destroyed or Wrecked, BUT every important member of the crew would survive, If it were Voyager, they would survive a glancing hit from an ISD, turn run, take five minutes to come up with some hair brained scheme that the best minds in starfleet have been trying to do for the past 100 years, and find the resources to do it in less than five minutes, and it will work perfectly first time

Ruskins
Station Member

posted 01-30-2003 02:41 AM user search report post
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this doesnt make a lot of sense, people keep saying an wing wouldnt have much chance again the Enterpise, well, when have you ever seen ONE xwing ? how well would the Enterprise do aginst a Squadron(12) of them ? or a Wing(72) not to mention the fact that the Enterprise has at best 3 phasers and 2 Torp lauchers whereas your normal ISD has about 60 Turbo lasers, the same number of ion cannon and god knows how many torpedo tubes, plus it has 5 squadrons of fighters. It just common sense, ST just doesnt have the numbers to have any chance.

Envy
Station Member posted 01-30-2003 03:34 AM user search report post
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if the tactical display was not to scal ethen what would be the point of it, as it would not allow for a true reading of when the death star had a firing solution...
-THE DESTRUCTION OF THE SSD (and its relative effects on SW shield systems strenghts and weaknesses)

as to the A-Wing Vs the SSD... the collision of it with the bridge appeared to cause crippling damage to it that caused it to completely lose control and stop shooting ( in the film, its weapons did appear to stop firing, as no more turbolaser or energy bolts come from it )... (then it crashed into the death star)... to me that was the "final blow"...

leading up to this there was the destruction of the poly-spherical "object" atop the SSDs bridge... now the minute that that was destroyed ( cant remember whether it was a ship crashed into it or it got missiled by a pair of A-Wings ), the bridge officer shouted "Sir, we have lost our bridge deflector screen" ( or something like that )...

now that indicated fairly closely that this "object" was the shield generator or one of them, might be interlaced, it has been said in some books that this was a "sensor dome"... but im gonna have to say that its just toooooooooo much of a coincidence that the second it was blown up, the scene cuts to the bridge and the officer shouts to the admiral... "Sir, we have lost our bridge deflector screen". no way is that a coincidence.

granted... fish boy ( admiral of the crab people... ) ordered the rebel fleet to "concentrate all fire on that super star destroyer" (obviously to take out the fleets command and control center), but it was literally seconds after this that the two fighters blew up the bridge deflector generator, and not too long after that that the A-Wing crashed into the bridge...

id also like to add that "all fire", as in "concentrate all fire", really was pityful if the rebel fleet is examined... both mon calmari cruisers had been dusted, many fighters had been creamed... there was not a great deal left to be honest. therefore "all fire" seems to me to be what we saw "as in about 10 fighters", at that stage of the battle...

the admiral imediatly ordered them to "intensify forward firepower, i dont want anything getting through"... so he felt threateded by the possibilty that something hitting the bridge would damage / cripple / destroy the SSD, it sounded like this had happened before... next... the admiral on board the SSD knew that the A-Wing was comming, he clearly saw it, and a crew member pointed to it... the admiral ordered again... this time yelling... "INTENSIFY FORWARD FIRE POWER!!!"... there was fear in his voice, and i think he knew that this would have the effect it did...

now although the rebel fleet was ordered to concentrate all fire on the SSD, it showed no other signs of damage, other than the explosion on the bridge from the A-Wing, in addition, it appeared to be 100% combatant at the time, i.e. all guns blasing...

now in both cases where we saw a physical impact of something of fairly high momentum ( the A-Wing was smaller, but clearly moving a LOT faster + had fuel, munitions and weapons on board : so the momentum would have been the same i think... ) and the bridge of either an ISD or a SSD, the imperial ship is destryed outright, or SERIOUSLY crippled ( i think that if the SSD had not speared the Death Star then it may well have been salvageable... but who knows... secondary explosions and no center from which to conduct / direct repairs would seriously put this ship out of the fight for a LONG time, if it could return ever )

this does show that the ISD, and SSD, are not as invulnerable as it would seem... to me it seems that the empire was just cocky, too full of itself and not having had any major competition for a good few years, had grown lax... in all fairness as well, fighters were seen to do a straffing run on an ISD and cause it to detonate in a nice big bang... but i would ask you as to what the yield of proton torpedos / concussion missiles are... they do not seem *that* high as when compared with the size of the explosion and relative damage ( hard to guage ) when the first flight of X-Wings does the trench run and misses in SW:ANH...

when looking at the relative strenghts of shielding systems i think it is unfair to discout / dismiss the clear events in the films when ISDs / the only SSD we see, was destroyed...

guaging on the level of damage from ALL recorded high velocity / high momentum collisions and the SSD/ISD, there is no alternative but to assume that they are vulnerable to physical object collision.

NB. if the SSD did have additional bridges, of which there is NO evidence that we see, then while they were taking over the ST ships could quite nicely slow down from their near lightspeed combat speeds and start firing tricobalt devices into the superstructure of it...

BANG...

THE SUBLIGHT COMBAT SPEED ARGUEMENT....

ok.... assume that the SW ships CAN go at 1/6th the speed of light...

that doesnt matter... if their universe was the same size and density as ours than it would still take a time lenght in the YEARS to reach another system from the Hoth system... i.e. Hoth to Bespin with only 1/6th the speed of light...

so:

1) the SW universe must be more compact...

and

2) at combat speeds the ships from ST could tactically run rings arround them... since full impulse is about 0.9 x lightspeed...

add to that the apparrent fact that the SW ships in "combat mode" can only go at 400m/s that would put an their engagement radius WAY lower than would be needed to counter a ST assault...

Envy
Station Member posted 01-30-2003 03:46 AM user search report post
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as to the post that appeared while i was posting the above...

well...

the effective "combat" speed of an X-Wing is 400m/s...

however the effective "combat speed of a ST ship" is about 2.7*10^9 m/s and the effective range from which they can fire torpedos at you is 4-5 AU... (1 AU being the distance form earth to the sun...)

so from 4 AU out, a ST vessle fires 1 photon (not quantum as a AOE effect is desired), torpedo at this "wing" of X-wings...

this wing is destroyed by the large area of effect matter-antimatter explosion...

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I've already pointed out that Hoth and Bespin are so close they are viruallt the same system.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-30 08:35am

To much bullshit let me pick and chose a few to answear

about 700. how the heck can you compare!"
Easy - when the Enterprise blows up the conning tower, bringing the Super Star Destroyer's shields down, then blows it up with a strafing run of Quantum Torpedoes, the Empire has suffered 500,000 casualties, including some very good officers.

Ask him kindly why have shields in the first place if you can take them down in one hit, and excellent follow-up on the fact they died mearly because they lost control and ran into the Deathstar

Startrek is the most, powerful name known to man. The Enterprise-E carries a load of quantum torpedoes that can destroy a borg ship(which by the way is the strongest ship in the galaxy) If a few torpedos could do that to a borg ship, what do you think they could do to a Start Destroyer with no shields hmmmm????

LMAO! He's acutal claming Star Destroyers don't have shields!

), I see the Enterprise's phasers bringing down the shield generator on the top of the conning tower, and when the shields collapse, the Enterprise would make a straifing run, unloading a salvo of Quantum Torpedoes that would cause the Super Star Destroyer to explore into a big fireball.

Two hundred Gigatons, Over 10 ships firing a combined total of over 300 of the things plus untold HTL's and LTL's for nearly a full minunte, untold Teratons of damage and he thinks a low Megaton at best weapon will work?

leading up to this there was the destruction of the poly-spherical "object" atop the SSDs bridge... now the minute that that was destroyed ( cant remember whether it was a ship crashed into it or it got missiled by a pair of A-Wings ), the bridge officer shouted "Sir, we have lost our bridge deflector screen" ( or something like that )...

Leap in Logic, How could they be destroyed if the shields where up?

NB. if the SSD did have additional bridges, of which there is NO evidence that we see, then while they were taking over the ST ships could quite nicely slow down from their near lightspeed combat speeds and start firing tricobalt devices into the superstructure of it...

Its called increably cross sections and EU, They are sourced all over the place

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-30 09:41am

Did anyone see a single argument in that pile of shit that was remotely new and hasn't been dealt with a thousand times?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-30 09:53am

umm, The DS was going realy realy slow?

Thats the closest I get to new

smokemare · Post by **smokemare** » 2003-01-30 10:31am

I've already dealt with alot of this myself - Envy is keen to ignore certain facts though. SO I wondered anyone here had anything good/new/irrefutable on that take. 400 M/s for top speed of an X-wing really has to be a sarcastic joke...

One thing though - Anyone got anything good for the " Falcon able to travel to Bespin system from Hoth System on sublight. I've posted a link to the galaxy map which shows the severe proximity of these systems - IE they ARE essentially in the SAME system they are so close - but this seems to be unsatisfactory....

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-01-30 10:38am

Well, I did like how this quote neatly summed up the core reasoning of 90% of all rabid trekkies (or rabid fans in general) I've heard:

Startek is Superior in every way. Not saying I dont like starwars but I like startrek more...

But that's about it.

Artanis · Post by **Artanis** » 2003-01-30 01:03pm

Anybody notice yet that he uses the "sensor sphere / shield generator" brain bug?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-01-30 01:11pm

I started trying to read your lengthy post, and now my head hurts. Thanks a lot...

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-01-30 02:27pm

Bring Envy over here. I'm sure some of the more....combative...members would be happy to show him the error of his ways.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2003-01-30 02:42pm

Where are these morons? I feel like educating some new morons now when the Trekkie boneheads at MSN boards have been beaten to a bulb.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-01-30 04:14pm

Artanis wrote:Anybody notice yet that he uses the "sensor sphere / shield generator" brain bug?

Yes. He also brings up a bunch of other nonsense. I say we being them over here, if they're so confident they can prove ST would beat SW.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-30 04:20pm

I like this one:

Again, I note that the majority of weapons on Star Destroyers are set on the side for ship-to-ship broadsides. The Federation doesn't fight in broadsides, it would fly fast and avoid any broadsides.

Oh, really...that's why the weapons are placed on the top of the ship IN TURRETS?!? Most weapons have at least a 90 degree fire arc, with it extending further by pitching the nose and angling to allow turrets to fire over each other. Star Trek ships tend to fight nose-to-nose, sometimes attempting ground combat style flanking maneuvers, which *gasp* take it right through the enemy's broadsides.

Startrek is the most, powerful name known to man. The Enterprise-E carries a load of quantum torpedoes that can destroy a borg ship(which by the way is the strongest ship in the galaxy) If a few torpedos could do that to a borg ship, what do you think they could do to a Start Destroyer with no shields hmmmm????

Not much. Given the mid-megaton payload of a photon torpedo, I actually think a space-going B-29 with a Little Boy bomb could do as much damage as the Enterprise.

if the tactical display was not to scal ethen what would be the point of it, as it would not allow for a true reading of when the death star had a firing solution...

Yes it would, if they just magnified the size of the DS so it would be visible. That's routinely done in CiCs today so that the commander can see where the bloody fleet is.

I was watching season 7 of Star Trek (yes I own seasons 1-7 on DVD lol), and they were talking about how they were going to cut through to the core of a planet to start a plasma reaction to give the planet hundreds of more years of life (the core was dying). That means the phaser was cutting THROUGH the planet... that's pretty nifty

Gee...how long would it take to cut through this planet? The DS cut through Alderaan in under a second. Merely being able to cut through a planet is nothing special. 9mm bullets could do that if you fired enough of them at the same spot.

*sigh* I actually think that last one is the most original I've seen. I'm just sad none of these people seem to show any actual scientific ability (not that I have much, but I can at least recognize that merely being able to cut through dirt is nothing special).

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-30 04:24pm

Ah isn't he the one at one point that gave the BS that because ST is more 'real' thus will win.

Pfft, bring him here...I'm sure some will enjoy shredding this lump.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-30 04:41pm

the effective "combat" speed of an X-Wing is 400m/s...

however the effective "combat speed of a ST ship" is about 2.7*10^9 m/s and the effective range from which they can fire torpedos at you is 4-5 AU... (1 AU being the distance form earth to the sun...)

so from 4 AU out, a ST vessle fires 1 photon (not quantum as a AOE effect is desired), torpedo at this "wing" of X-wings...

this wing is destroyed by the large area of effect matter-antimatter explosion...

The top speed for the E-e is .25C Top speed for an x-wing is .9C Trek fights at about 30 k/s. X wings were doing 200-400 k/s at Endor. Maximum range ever seen for a trek ship was 5 million km in Voyager. Maximum range ever seen in Wars is over 8 AU in Rebel Lines.

I'd deal witht e rest, but it's so fucking stupid I can't handle it.

Oh, and a 4 AU out the X wings will have plenty of time to get out of the way. Even if the thing went a C, which it doesn't, they would have 40 minutes to get away from it.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-30 04:43pm

I would get involved, but there is a limit to how much bullshit I am prepared to wade though.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2003-01-30 07:36pm

Let's see that makes Darth Balls, smokemare, butterbean, and me that is fighting in there.

The thing about this forum http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/star ... s&number=2
is that there are a bunch of kids with no scientific knowledge of sorts in here but there are some adults such as the idiotic *Sanguinous Rex*.

They're too stupid.

Cyaround,
Jason

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-01-30 09:28pm

My God. Do they even who what Star Wars and Star Trek are? Those fools. Their fire has gone out in the universe. Hey weight, I am part trekkie. oh yeah, that's right. I'm not a dumbass.

smokemare · Post by **smokemare** » 2003-01-31 04:59am

Hehe - Hi Soontir, the thread should get VERY interesting now... Anyone got some popcorn ?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-31 06:01am

Ignorant mother fucker wrote:Startrek is the most, powerful name known to man. The Enterprise-E carries a load of quantum torpedoes that can destroy a borg ship(which by the way is the strongest ship in the galaxy) If a few torpedos could do that to a borg ship, what do you think they could do to a Start Destroyer with no shields hmmmm????

How many times must a character in the SW movies actually say the word 'shield' before this moron gets it? Just spank him and move on, oh and smokemare you just also gave me a head-ache

Not your fault, I know but some warning labels next eh?

smokemare · Post by **smokemare** » 2003-01-31 07:25am

Sorry, I thought this forum might find this amusing... If somewhat painful *sigh*

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2003-01-31 10:08am

I decided to take part on educating these ignorant boneheads allso, im using the name Bongmania and replying to Envy's bullshit was rather refreshing beginning

smokemare · Post by **smokemare** » 2003-01-31 11:28am

I noticed ! Haha ! Good posts !

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-02-01 01:45am

May the force be with you Fist from Heaven. God be with you....

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-02-01 02:59pm

Ender wrote:Oh, and a 4 AU out the X wings will have plenty of time to get out of the way. Even if the thing went a C, which it doesn't, they would have 40 minutes to get away from it.

33.32 minutes, but close enough

. (Terra is 8.28 light-minutes from Sol on average)

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-02-01 04:38pm

What I want to know is how can Trekkies call us stupid? Seriously, they have no room to talk. Most of them have forced the good Trekkies and Trek/Warsises over to this side of the spectrum just to surive. BTW, Mike, I hate to sound rude, but could you please open up and RP area for us to play out battles. I just want to prove those uber idiots wrong. If this sounds stupid, I apoloigize, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.