"The End of Arrogance"

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"The End of Arrogance"

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I found this article very interesting, so I want to share it here with you.
Original on Spiegel.de
America Loses Its Dominant Economic Role

By SPIEGEL Staff

The banking crisis is upending American dominance of the financial markets and world politics. The industrialized countries are sliding into recession, the era of turbo-capitalism is coming to an end and US military might is ebbing. Still, this is no time to gloat.

There are days when all it takes is a single speech to illustrate the decline of a world power. A face can speak volumes, as can the speaker's tone of voice, the speech itself or the audience's reaction. Kings and queens have clung to the past before and humiliated themselves in public, but this time it was merely a United States president.

Or what is left of him.

George W. Bush has grown old, erratic and rosy in the eight years of his presidency. Little remains of his combativeness or his enthusiasm for physical fitness. On this sunny Tuesday morning in New York, even his hair seemed messy and unkempt, his blue suit a little baggy around the shoulders, as Bush stepped onto the stage, for the eighth time, at the United Nations General Assembly.

He talked about terrorism and terrorist regimes, and about governments that allegedly support terror. He failed to notice that the delegates sitting in front of and below him were shaking their heads, smiling and whispering, or if he did notice, he was no longer capable of reacting. The US president gave a speech similar to the ones he gave in 2004 and 2007, mentioning the word "terror" 32 times in 22 minutes. At the 63rd General Assembly of the United Nations, George W. Bush was the only one still talking about terror and not about the topic that currently has the rest of the world's attention.

"Absurd, absurd, absurd," said one German diplomat. A French woman called him "yesterday's man" over coffee on the East River. There is another way to put it, too: Bush was a laughing stock in the gray corridors of the UN.

The American president has always had enemies in these hallways and offices at the UN building on First Avenue in Manhattan. The Iranians and Syrians despise the eternal American-Israeli coalition, while many others are tired of Bush's Americans telling the world about the blessings of deregulated markets and establishing rules "that only apply to others," says the diplomat from Berlin.

But the ridicule was a new thing. It marked the end of respect.

"Well," Brazilian President Luiz Inacio "Lula" da Silva began, standing outside the General Assembly Hall. Then he looked out the window and said: "He decided to talk about terrorism, but the issue that has the world concerned is the economic crisis." Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, the president of Argentina, said that the schoolmasters from Washington had dubbed the 1994 Mexican crisis the "tequila effect" and Brazil's 1999 crisis the "Caipirinha effect."

Are we now experiencing the "whiskey effect?" But President Kirchner was gracious and, with a smile, called it the "jazz effect."

Is it only President George W. Bush, the lame duck president, whom the rest of the world is no longer taking seriously, or are the remaining 191 UN member states already setting their sights on the United States, the giant brought to its knees? UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon referred to a "new reality" and "new centers of power and leadership in Asia, Latin America and across the newly developed world." Are they surprised, in these new centers, at the fall of America, of the system of the Western-style market economy?

Even America's closest allies are distancing themselves -- first and foremost the German chancellor. When push came to shove in the past, Angela Merkel had always come down on the side of the United States. As a candidate for the Chancellery for the conservative Christian Democrats, she helped Bush in the Iraq war, and as chancellor she supported tougher sanctions on Iran and campaigned in Europe for an embargo against Cuba. "The partnership with the United States," the chancellor insisted again and again, "has a very special meaning for us Germans."

There was no mention of loyalty and friendship last Monday. Merkel stood in the glass-roofed entrance hall of one of the German parliament's office buildings in Berlin and prepared her audience of roughly 1,000 businesspeople from all across Germany for the foreseeable consequences of the financial crisis. It was a speech filled with concealed accusations and dark warnings.

Merkel talked about a "distribution of risk at everyone's expense" and the consequences for the "economic situation in the coming months and possibly even years." Most of all, she made it clear who she considers the true culprit behind the current plight. "The German government pointed out the problems early on," said the chancellor, whose proposals to impose tighter international market controls failed repeatedly because of US opposition. "Some things can be done at the national level," she said, "but most things have to be handled internationally."

Merkel had never publicly criticized the United States this harshly and unapologetically. In this regard, she enjoys the wholehearted support of her coalition government partner, the center-left Social Democrats (SPD). In a speech before Germany's parliament, the Bundestag, Finance Minister Peer Steinbrück of the SPD spoke of the end of the United States as a "superpower of the global financial system."

The banking crisis in the United States has shaken many things in recent days, not just the chancellor's affection for America and the respect the rest of the world once had for the US as an economic and political superpower. Since the US investment bank Lehman Brothers plummeted into bankruptcy two weeks ago, the financial crisis has developed a destructive force of almost unimaginable strength. The proud US investment banks with globally recognized names like Merrill Lynch and Goldman Sachs have all gone bankrupt, been bought up or restructured. The American real estate market has essentially been nationalized. And the country's biggest savings and loan, Washington Mutual, has failed and been sold at a loss.

In light of the almost daily reports of losses in the financial sector, it seemed almost secondary to note that the disaster had also turned into one of the biggest criminal investigations in American history. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) is already investigating 26 large financial corporations as well as 1,400 smaller companies and private citizens for possible fraud.

Economists now characterize what began two years ago with falling prices in the American real estate market as the biggest economic disaster since the world economic crisis of the 1930s. No one knows whether and how the meltdown of global financial markets, which would have grave consequences for the world economy, can still be prevented.

And now, of all times, the world is faced with a preeminent power that no longer seems capable of leading and a US president who is not even able to unite his divided country in an hour of need.

For weeks, Bush ignored the crisis, insisting on the strength of the market and telling Americans: "Everything will be fine."

In a televised address to the nation last Wednesday, Bush gave his oath of disclosure. He warned Americans that they could face a "long and painful recession" and that "millions of Americans could lose their jobs" unless swift action is taken.

But nothing happened swiftly, at least not at first. The crisis is happening while the United States is in a political vacuum. Bush lacks the power needed for decisive leadership, and his potential successors, John McCain and Barack Obama, seem more concerned about making a strong impression on voters.

Ironically, it is in the country of unfettered capitalism that the government now plans to intervene in the economy on a scale not seen since the Great Depression, and, with hundreds of billions of dollars, attempt to save the financial sector from failure -- out of fear of something even worse: an economic collapse with declining prices and widespread unemployment.

This is no longer the muscular and arrogant United States the world knows, the superpower that sets the rules for everyone else and that considers its way of thinking and doing business to be the only road to success.

A new America is on display, a country that no longer trusts its old values and its elites even less: the politicians, who failed to see the problems on the horizon, and the economic leaders, who tried to sell a fictitious world of prosperity to Americans.

Also on display is the end of arrogance. The Americans are now paying the price for their pride.

Gone are the days when the US could go into debt with abandon, without considering who would end up footing the bill. And gone are the days when it could impose its economic rules of engagement on the rest of the world, rules that emphasized profit above all else -- without ever considering that such returns cannot be achieved by doing business in a respectable way.

With its rule of three of cheap money, free markets and double-digit profit margins, American turbo-capitalism has set economic standards worldwide for the past quarter century. Now it is proving to be nothing but a giant snowball system, upsetting the US's global political status as it comes crashing down. Every bank that US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson is currently forced to bail out with American government funds damages America's reputation around the world.

Of course, it is not solely the result of undesirable economic developments that the United States is in the process of forfeiting its unique position in the world and that the world is moving toward what Fareed Zakaria, editor of Newsweek International, calls a "post-American age." Washington has also lost much of its political ability to impose its will on other countries.

Bush's Failed Leadership

The failed leadership of President Bush, whose departure most of his counterparts from other countries are now looking forward to more and more openly, is not solely to blame. Nor are his two risky wars: the one in Iraq, which he launched frivolously in the vain hope of converting the entire region to the American way of life, and the other in Afghanistan, in which Bush now risks the world's most powerful defense alliance, NATO, suffering its first defeat.

But it's hard to forget how this president's mentors celebrated the power to shape world affairs the United States acquired in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the East-West conflict. There was talk of a "unipolar moment," of "America's moment," even of an "end of history," now that all other countries apparently had no other choice but to become smaller versions of America: liberal, democratic and buoyed by an unshakeable confidence in the free market economy.

The Bush administration wanted to cement forever this unique moment in history, in which the United States was undoubtedly the strongest power on earth. It wanted to use it to clean house in chronic crisis zones around the world, especially the Middle East. Far from relying on the classic, cumbersome and often unsuccessful tools of multilateral diplomacy, the Bush warriors were always quick to threaten military intervention -- just as quick as they were to make good on this threat.

The strategists of this immoderately self-confident administration formulated these principles in the "Bush doctrine" and claimed, for themselves and their actions, the right to "preemptive" military intervention -- with little concern for the rules of alliances or international organizations.

The superpower even claimed privileges over its allies, even offending some of its best friends during Bush's first term. Bush withdrew the American signature from a treaty to establish the International Criminal Court, he refused to ratify the Kyoto Protocol to combat climate change and he withdrew from an agreement with the Russians to limit the number of missile defense systems.

Washington sought to divide the world into good and evil -- and did so as it saw fit.

Now, in the wake of the crash on Wall Street, the debate in the UN reveals that the long-humiliated have lost their fear of the giant in world politics. Even a political dwarf like Bolivian President Evo Morales is now talking big. "There is an uprising against an economic model, a capitalistic system that is the worst enemy of humanity," Morales told the UN General Assembly.

The financial crisis has uncovered the world power's true weakness. The more the highly indebted United States has to spend to stabilize its own economic system, the more trouble it has performing its self-imposed duties as the world's policeman.

The new US president will only have been in office for a short time when a document titled "Global Trends 2025" appears on his desk. The report is being prepared by analysts at the National Intelligence Council. Its chairman, Thomas Fingar, has already released a preview, and reading it will not exactly be enjoyable for proud American. "Although the United States will remain the most important power, American dominance will be sharply reduced," says Fingar.

According to the preview of the report, the erosion of American supremacy will "accelerate in the areas of politics and economics, and possibly culture."

The century that just began is unlikely to be declared the American century again. Instead, "Asia will shape the fate of the world, with or without the United States," says Parag Khanna, a young Indian-American political scientist whose book "The Second World: Empires and Influence in the New Global Order" has attracted a great deal of attention in the United States.

There is much to be said for Khanna's assertion. Beijing is already funding a large share of the gigantic American trade deficit, while at the same time selling many consumer goods to the United States. In other words, it benefits from the US's weakness in two ways. And politically speaking, the newly self-confident Chinese will no longer allow themselves to be domineered by the West. Reacting to worldwide criticism of political oppression in Tibet, the Chinese encouraged their nationalist youth to assault Western institutions and refused to allow themselves to be lectured on human rights.

Republican Senator Chuck Hagel has acknowledged that the "world's largest debtor nation" cannot simultaneously shape the course of the world. The challenges America faces have multiplied, especially in recent times.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union and a decade of weakness, resource-rich Russia now expects to be treated as an equal to its former Cold War rival. The invasion of Georgia by Russian troops showed NATO where Moscow sees the limits of expansion of the Western military alliance. Indeed, some time ago, Russian bombers resumed patrolling the borders of the Western defense alliance.

Iran has also been unimpressed by Washington's approach to force it to terminate its uranium-enrichment process by threatening to use military force. The expansion of the nuclear facility at Natanz is progressing at a brisk pace, as expected, and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad now considers his adversary, Bush, to be finished. "The American empire in the world is reaching the end of its road," he said in his speech to the UN General Assembly, "and its next rulers must limit their interference to their own borders."

Even before the financial crisis, there was lively debate in the United States over whether the world's largest economy could become overtaxed in the long run as a result of its international obligations and the global deployment of its armed forces. The war in Iraq costs the country $3 billion a week. And it is already clear that Bush's successor will find his powers in the White House further limited by the enormous mountain of debt he inherits.

And then there are the costs of the financial crisis -- and the recession that will inevitably follow.

Most Americans are opposed to Treasury Secretary Paulson's plan to buy the banks' bad loans for $700 billion (€483 billion). A rare coalition of the left and right reject this one-time bailout package as "un-American" and as a completely excessive act of government intervention that, in fact, rewards those responsible for the debacle: the key players in New York's financial industry.

The government and large parts of the establishment disagree. They fear that if the program fails, it could drag the American financial markets and then the global economy into the abyss.

With only five weeks to go before the presidential election, the emergency Wall Street bailout has turned into a high-stakes political drama. Last Tuesday's hearing before the US Senate, which lasted several hours and included Paulson, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), Christopher Cox, was reminiscent of a show trial, with the government and the Federal Reserve playing the role of prosecutor.

The administration struck back the next day, when Bush gave his dramatic televised address to the nation. But then the Republican Party base revolted. For many Republicans, the idea of giving away $700 billion in tax money to Wall Street banks is tantamount to the introduction of socialism on American soil.

They believe that Bush and Paulson are betraying the ideals of their party, and their fears were confirmed elsewhere on Thursday. The mood did not improve when, without further ado, the government seized one of the country's largest savings & loan institutions and sold it to JP Morgan Chase.

Many experts are also skeptical. Allan Meltzer, an advisor to former President Ronald Reagan, is critical of what he calls "intimidation tactics" designed to serve "private, not public interests."

"We are applying cold compresses to the fever patient instead of fighting the actual infection," says Christopher Mayer of Columbia University in New York. According to Mayer, the billions would be better spent reducing mortgage interest. This would reduce the number of foreclosures and attract buyers back to the market.

But as divided as Washington is, doing nothing would still be the worst alternative.

"There is no other option now than to move the plan forward," says Ed Yardeni, the former chief investment strategist at Deutsche Bank, who now heads his own research firm outside New York. "The US treasury secretary and chairman of the Federal Reserve predicted a financial Armageddon," says Yardeni. "Unless action is taken now, it'll get really ugly on the markets."

At the end of last week, investors' loss of confidence worldwide led to the credit markets becoming essentially frozen once again. This could cause the flow of money in the broader economic environment to run dry, as happened once before in the world economic crisis. This explains why Paulson, Bush and Bernanke are so nervous.

The bailout plan they unveiled at the end of last week was arrogant and incomplete. The Democrats, in particular, fought for some key changes. They want to give Congress more control over the treasury secretary and the ability to monitor his spending on an ongoing basis. Instead of approving $700 billion in one fell swoop, the Democrats want the funds to be disbursed in portions. Banks wishing to take advantage of the government bailout would also have to impose limits on executive compensation.

Finally, the Democrats want taxpayers to get something in return for their sacrifice: The government would buy the financial institutions' toxic mortgage securities at a preferred price. In return, it would receive bank shares that it could later sell, if and when prices recovered.

Overall, the hope was that this would reestablish relatively normal market conditions. Banks would be able to unload their junk securities for a clear price, their balance sheets would no longer be adversely affected by virtually worthless mortgage-backed securities, and transparency and confidence would be restored.

Wall Street's Central Values: Avarice and Greed

It is an optimistic scenario, but with no guarantee of success. Still, what's the alternative? "Maybe we can let Wall Street implode," writes Princeton economist Paul Krugman in the New York Times, "and Main Street would escape largely unscathed." But, he continues, "that's not a chance we want to take."

The effects of the financial crisis are already serious, both for the American taxpayer, who will end up footing the bill no matter what, and for the relationship between the government and the economy. An era of American economic policy is coming to a close. Ironically, and surprisingly to many, the last few months of the Bush administration will mark the end of the so-called "Reagan revolution."

Since the early 1980s, the United States has radically emphasized deregulation, which has meant lowering taxes, eliminating regulations and generally leaving the markets to their own devices. Ronald Reagan began his presidency in 1981 with this program, and it was following by a prolonged economic upturn.

It was driven in part by an aggressive policy of cheap money, for which a second icon of the American boom was responsible: former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan. During the 18 years of his tenure, whenever there was trouble brewing in the stock market and financial markets, Greenspan would drown the crises in a flood of fresh money. Whether it was the 1997 market crash in the Asian tiger countries, the selloff of Russian government bonds a year later, the collapse of the LTCM hedge fund or, finally, the bursting of the New Economy bubble at the beginning of the new millennium, Greenspan's rescue operations could be counted on to return growth to the world's markets. But there was one thing Greenspan overlooked: By repeatedly printing money, he also laid the foundation for the next financial bubble, and its destructive energy grew from one intervention to the next.

Over the last 15 years, Greenspan was opposed to oversight and control over those companies that used the ready cash made available by his policies to introduce a wave of so-called financial innovations. As long as he was in office, he blocked all attempts to impose government collateral requirements on the credit, stock and financial markets. In Greenspan's view, it would only hamper "necessary flexibility."

His policies were borne out by the successes of two decades. Fed by cheap money and freed of most regulations, the American financial industry experienced an unprecedented boom. The industry's excessive growth was reflected in exorbitant salaries and ostentatious skyscrapers but also in the withdrawal of a large share of American value creation.

In 2007, at the beginning of the crisis, the American financial and lending sector was responsible for 14 percent of economic performance, while collecting 33 percent of all corporate profits.

The financial boom also set the turbo-charger in motion that would lend a new face to worldwide capital from then on. Avarice and greed have always been the central values on Wall Street, but now they had become a benchmark for the real global economy. The American banking industry paid for globalization and the Internet revolution, the Asian upswing and the boom in the commodities markets. "We need a 25-percent return," or else his bank would not be "competitive internationally," Deutsche Bank CEO Josef Ackermann said, thereby establishing a benchmark that would soon apply not just to banks but also to automobile makers, machine builders and steel companies.

But, as is often the case with recipes for success, at some point the healthy dose is exceeded and soon the risks and side effects begin to accumulate. The result: The supposed medicine instead becomes a pathogen instead.

In the United States, this process began after the collapse of the New Economy. Once again, Greenspan flooded the economy with money and, yet again, Wall Street started looking for a new market for its growth machine. This time it discovered the American homeowner, convincing him to take out mortgages at favorable terms, even when there was practically no collateral.

The total value of all outstanding mortgage loans in the United States -- $11 trillion (€7.6 trillion) -- is almost as large as the country's gross domestic product. At the same time, with the help of Wall Street's financial engineers, the Americans managed to sell a portion of the risk to other parts of the world, reasoning that if the risk was out of sight it would be out of mind.

But the fact that risks do not disappear when they are distributed around the world became clear at the beginning of last year. Interest rates rose across the board and house prices came down, triggering a chain reaction with collateral damage that was bringing down ever-growing segments of the financial sector from one week to the next. Today, 18 million single-family homes and condominiums in the United States are empty. More and more Americans can no longer afford the high interest rates they are being charged. Many consumers have even been forced to bid farewell to their beloved credit cards because the banks are no longer willing to extend credit to them.

To make matters worse, because a large share of the mortgage loans are now distributed all over the world, the crisis is spreading halfway around the globe like an infectious disease. In recent years, many of the industrialized countries deregulated their financial markets based on the American model. This has led to a relatively unimpeded flow of capital around the world today.

The financial assets that economies hold abroad have grown more than sevenfold in the past three decades. By late 2007, the market volume for derivatives, which are used to bet on interest rate, stock and credit risks worldwide, had reached a previously unthinkable level of $596 trillion (€411 trillion).

At the same time, the number of players has multiplied. The banks stopped being the only ones in control of the industry some time ago. Nowadays, hedge funds bet on falling stock prices and mortgage rates, private equity companies buy up failed banks and bad loans, and wealthy pension funds keep the fund managers afloat.

The "greater complexity of linkages within and between the financial systems" now has one man worried, a man whose profession ought to provide him with a better idea of what's going on: Jean-Claude Trichet, president of the European Central Bank. In a recent speech at New York University, Europe's highest-ranking central banker complained about the "obscurity of and interactions among many financial instruments," often combined with a "high level of borrowing."

The inventors of these complex securities hoped that they could be used to distribute risk more broadly around the globe. But instead of making financial transactions more secure, they achieved the opposite effect, increasing the risks. Today the notion of using "many shoulders for support," the constant mantra of the gurus of financial alchemy, has proved to be one of the catalysts of the crash.

American economist Raghuram Rajan, whom ECB President Trichet is frequently quoting these days, had a premonition of the current disaster three years ago. The total integration of the markets "exposes the system to large systemic shocks," Rajan wrote then in a study. Although the economy had survived many crises before, like the bursting of the Internet bubble, "this should not lead us to be too optimistic." "Can we be confident that the shocks were large enough and in the right places to fully test the system?" Rajan asked. "A shock to equity markets, though large," he continued, "may have less effect than a shock to credit markets."

There was certainly no shortage of warnings, and there were many voices of caution. As long ago as 1936, John Maynard Keynes recognized the risk that "speculation may win the upper hand" in the markets. Its influence in New York, the British economist wrote, was "enormous," and the situation would become serious "when the capital development of a country becomes the by-product of the activities of a casino."

Irrational Exuberance

US economist Robert Shiller, who predicted the bursting of the dot-com bubble at the turn of the century, was one of the first to notice that the value of houses and condominiums in the United States was rising at a suspiciously fast rate. In Shiller's view, this was another case of irrational exuberance. In December 2004, Stephen Roach, the former chief economist at investment bank Morgan Stanley, cautioned against the "grimmest of all financial bubbles."

New York economist Nouriel Roubini presented the most accurate scenario of a crash, from the bursting of the real estate bubble to the domino-like demise of major banks. Roubini, known as a notorious alarmist, now predicts a prolonged recession in the United States that will drag down the entire global economy with it. "The US consumer has consumed himself to death," says Roubini.

Paul Samuelson, the doyen of the world's economists, predicted this bitter outcome three years ago. "America's position is under pressure because we have become a society that hardly saves," Samuelson, 90 at the time, said in an interview with SPIEGEL. "We don't think of others or of tomorrow."

And now the global conflagration is a reality, triggered by cleverly packaged US subprime mortgages sold around the world, even to bankers in the provincial eastern German state of Saxony. So-called credit derivatives, which banks and investment funds used to hedge against the failure of commercial loans, could soon add new fuel to the fire. In the wake of the subprime crisis, could credit derivatives be the next bad thing? Is the world facing a wave of bankruptcies that could soon bring the financial world crashing down through the mechanism of credit derivatives?

US market guru Warren Buffett calls derivatives " weapons of mass destruction." They are the creations of inventive financial alchemists, concoctions that blend classic forms of investment, like stocks, bonds and commodities.

In fact, within this discipline, derivatives used to hedge against credit risk are among the most dangerous gambles and, as one would expect within the global financial casino, they have experienced dizzying growth. In the last five years, the volume of credit derivatives has grown thirtyfold to about $55 trillion (€38 trillion), or about 20 times the gross national product of Germany.

The world is encased in a tightly woven network of reciprocal payment obligations. "The core problem is that it is no longer possible to know where the risks have ultimately landed," warns Thomas Heidorn, a professor at Frankfurt's Institute for Law and Finance. This is because traders pass on credit risks an infinite number of times, which explains the dizzying market volume. Where the risks end up is anyone's guess.

Nevertheless, only a handful of firms set the tone in this high-stakes game of bingo in which trillions are on the line. According to a survey by Fitch Ratings, an international credit rating agency, about four-fifths of all credit derivatives bought and sold worldwide in 2004 was on the books of only 15 banks and major dealers. Lehman Brothers was one of the Top 10 players in the business, and its bankruptcy has torn giant holes in the fragile network of credit insurance. "Not saving Lehman was a huge mistake," says a banking executive in Frankfurt, who notes that the shock waves will be extremely difficult to control.

Germany, where banks have had to write off about €40 billion ($58 billion), has managed to come away relatively unscathed until now. Experts believe that that number will be increased by significantly more than €10 billion ($14.5 billion).

German banks are now concerned that they will be at a competitive disadvantage if their US competitors are permitted to unload their bad debt with the government in the future, thereby improving their credit ratings. The Germans are demanding equal treatment. Last Thursday, leading representatives of the industry informed Finance Minister Steinbrück of their wishes -- and were rebuffed.

The financial storm has even been felt in the most unexpected of places, such as the offices of German town halls. At the turn of the millennium, hard-up German cities like Bochum, Recklinghausen and Wuppertal, used complex agreements, to sell large shares of the municipal family silver to US investors -- and then turned around to re-lease it. In many cases these so-called Cross-Border Leases (CBL) -- in which entire sewage systems or municipal transport operations were sold off -- were insured by the US insurance giant AIG, which was recently nationalized to avoid bankruptcy.

Naturally, the small print of the CBL agreements contains an explosive clause. It stipulates that if the guarantor loses its top-rated AAA credit rating, additional collateral must be provided. Despite government intervention, AIG was downgraded. Under their CBL agreements, the affected city councils have only a few weeks to come up with a solution.

By contrast, their counterparts in the cities of Münster, Troisdorf, Munich and Frankfurt can only wait and hope. They invested portions of their tax revenues with the Frankfurt subsidiary of now-bankrupt Lehman Brothers. By offering generous terms and citing a deposit insurance fund, the Americans managed to drum up urgently needed liquidity in Germany shortly before their bankruptcy.

The funds that German cities coughed up to help the Wall Street gamblers survive are not likely to be repaid anytime soon. BaFin, Germany's Federal Financial Supervisory Authority, has imposed a moratorium on the German subsidiary, freezing all transactions until further notice.

On August 15, when the US investment bank was already on shaky ground, Helga Bickeböller, a member of Münster's city council, transferred €15 million ($22 million) to Frankfurt in two tranches. "The offer was 0.004 percent higher than the next-best offer," Bickeböller says in justifying the transaction.

The credit crunch is tearing holes in the balance sheets of municipalities, companies and private households across the world. Banks hardly lend each other money anymore, consumer confidence is evaporating, and investors are questioning whether new sales will help them recoup money already spent on new equipment. In Germany, Arcandor -- a major holding company in the mail order, retail and tourism industries that reported €21 billion in 2007 sales -- threatens to become the first victim of tighter credit terms.

As the bad news accumulates -- in recent days, especially in the United States -- the mood around the world is growing increasingly dire. In August, sales of new homes in the United States dropped to their lowest level in 17 years. In comparison to last year, which was already a bad year, new home sales have dropped by more than 34 percent. At the same time, more and more US citizens have applied for unemployment benefits. And the manufacturing industry is reporting significant declines in order volume.

"The United States cannot avoid an 18-month-long, severe recession and a deep-seated financial crisis," warns Roubini, the New York economist. He would consider it a success if the country manages not to plunge into years of stagnation, as Japan did in the 1990s.

The consequences of the economic downturn in the United States are being felt around the world, especially in Germany, which is currently the world's leading exporter. Hans-Werner Sinn, president of the Munich-based Ifo Institute for Economic Research, calls it an "extremely worrisome situation." According to an analysis by the German Economics Ministry, the economy is exposed to "external shocks" and a "noticeably worsened external economic environment." The report even mentions the dreaded word "recession," although it adds that that recession is "not a foregone conclusion."

This is all the more vexing for the German government because it was the one that warned against the current malaise some time ago. During the G-8 economic summit in Heiligendamm more than a year ago, for example, Chancellor Angela Merkel tried to convince her state guests of the need for tighter controls on the financial markets. But President Bush and then British Prime Minister Tony Blair gave the chancellor the cold shoulder.

'One Can See that We Are on a more Solid Base'

For far too long, the Americans and the British made fun of the Germans for their risk-averse, savings-oriented mentality, says Bernd Pfaffenbach, Merkel's chief negotiator on foreign trade issues. But now the relative conservatism that Germans have shown in financial matters is paying off. "One can see that we are on a more solid base," says Pfaffenbach, who refers to the crisis as a "purifying storm."

Pfaffenbach isn't the only one to see the problem in this light. The American bank crash has prompted economists and politicians worldwide to prepare for the end of an era of turbo-capitalism driven by the financial markets.

The financial industry -- especially in the United States -- will shrink considerably, while the significance of the real economy will increase. Once again, the government will have to base its supervisory function on the old banker's principle: security first.

This is especially true when it comes to monetary policy. For years, central bankers "paid attention almost exclusively to developments in consumer prices," complains Thomas Meyer, chief European economist at Deutsche Bank. If consumer prices were going up by 2 percent or 3 percent, the risk of inflation was thought to have been averted.

The fact that the prices of stocks, bonds and real estate were often rising at double-digit rates was usually ignored until the financial bubbles burst with a loud bang. Some economists recommend that central bankers should also consider asset inflation when reaching future decisions.

At the same time, Europe's finance ministers are calling for tighter supervision of the credit and securities markets, as a group of experts from the G-8 countries recently recommended. Their plan calls for requiring banks to maintain larger capital reserves for specific risks. In addition, they have recommended that hidden financial risks that banks have assumed be made more transparent and that better guidelines be developed for the valuation of financial instruments.

Most of all, the G-8 council of experts stresses the need to reform the risk classification of securities. The major international rating agencies, such Moody's and Standard & Poor's, have deeply embarrassed themselves in the current crisis. In many cases, they gave their highest ratings to what were really junk securities. The G-8 experts have proposed that these institutions be made subject to a code of conduct.

At the same time, the experts also warn against intervening too much in the financial markets. As was illustrated by Germany's public sector Landesbanken, hard hit by the subprime crisis, as well as state-owned lender KfW -- which transfered €350 million to Lehman Brothers the day it filed for bankruptcy protection -- the government is usually not up to the task of owning and operating banks. Simply banning certain financial market operations also makes little sense, they believe, as such prohibitions are often easily circumvented.

If the G-8 experts prevail, there will be major consequences. For now, it would spell the end of ever-rising returns with constantly changing securities. At the same time, the market position of Anglo-Saxon banks would be significantly restricted, which would benefit the up-and-coming financial institutions of the emerging Asian and Eastern European economies.

A new chapter in economic history has begun, one in which the United States will no longer play its former dominant role. A process of redistributing money and power around the world -- away from America and toward the resource-rich countries and rising industrialized nations in Asia -- has been underway for years. The financial crisis will only accelerate the process.

The wealthy state-owned funds of China, Singapore, Dubai and Kuwait control assets of almost $4 trillion (€2.76 trillion), and they are now in a position to buy their way onto Wall Street in a big way.

But they have remained reserved until now, partly as a result of poor experiences in the past. The China Investment Corp., for example, invested in the initial public offering of the Blackstone Group, a private equity firm, and invested $5 billion (€3.45 billion) in Morgan Stanley. In both cases, it lost a lot of money.

But time is on the side of the Chinese. American stocks are becoming cheaper and cheaper. And the longer the crisis lasts, the weaker American objections to buyers from the Far East will become. In fact, it is quite possible that they will soon be celebrated as saviors.

The Chinese are interested in keeping the situation in the United States from spinning out of control. In a telephone conversation last Monday, Chinese President Hu Jintao told President Bush that he hoped that the measures to stabilize US financial markets would "achieve quick results and improve the economic and financial situation."

Bush had called his Chinese counterpart to inform him about his government's bailout program. Once again, the conversation symbolized just how great the mutual dependence between the two countries has become.

No Time to Gloat

Both in Asia and the United States, expressing schadenfreude over the decline of the United States as a superpower is out of place. The risk is too great that if America goes into a tailspin, it will drag the rest of the world down with it.

Despite the anger felt toward Bush, there is little enthusiasm in Europe's capitals for the political consequences. The financial crisis will reinvigorate America's tendency toward isolationism, which never quite disappeared.

The triumphalism of the Bush years could easily be followed by the "I'll-sit-this-one-out" years of an Obama administration committed to a strict policy of belt-tightening. If that happens, both old and new Europe will have to demonstrate whether the European Union can rightfully claim to be on an equal footing with the United States.

In the past, the US government's solo efforts provided the Europeans with an all-too-comfortable excuse for simply doing nothing. But that excuse is no longer valid.

BEAT BALZLI, KLAUS BRINKBÄUMER, FRANK HORNIG, HANS HOYNG, ARMIN MAHLER, ALEXANDER NEUBACHER, WOLFGANG REUTER, CHRISTOPH PAULY, MICHAEL SAUGA
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Seeing as how US economy is still two times bigger than Chinese I think we shouldn't proclaim the end of US dominance just yet especially when we remember all those horror stories from the 80s about how Japanese will overtake the US buy it's companies etc. etc.
US is hardly the first or last country to be hit by an economic crisis.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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The US economy is worth shit. In case you missed it, your "wealth" comes from playing with numbers.

Meanwhile, the Chinese have been buying real things, like gold, oil, mines, factories and what not. At the end of the crash, who is going to be worse off? The nation with trillions in noughts and ones on some database, or the one with an actual manufacturing economy?
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Admiral Valdemar wrote:The US economy is worth shit. In case you missed it, your "wealth" comes from playing with numbers.

Meanwhile, the Chinese have been buying real things, like gold, oil, mines, factories and what not. At the end of the crash, who is going to be worse off? The nation with trillions in noughts and ones on some database, or the one with an actual manufacturing economy?
While I do agree with Kane to an extent (how many times have we seen grand proclamations of the fall of America, or the rise of Japan, or the rise of some other nation, and the fall of another) I wouldn't mind seeing the US bring back a sizable manufacturing base. We don't really seem to produce much anymore, and what we do produce (Ford etc) no one really seems to want.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Kane Starkiller wrote:Seeing as how US economy is still two times bigger than Chinese I think we shouldn't proclaim the end of US dominance just yet especially when we remember all those horror stories from the 80s about how Japanese will overtake the US buy it's companies etc. etc.
US is hardly the first or last country to be hit by an economic crisis.
Erm, the state of the US economy at the start of the 90s is in no way comparable to the ungodly mess it is in now. It is in fact an order of magnitude worse. There is no doubt the American economy will rise again, but in the mean time, it has tanked, and the world will pay for it.

And China will eventually catch up. It's merely a question of decades.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Erm, the state of the US economy at the start of the 90s is in no way comparable to the ungodly mess it is in now. It is in fact an order of magnitude worse. There is no doubt the American economy will rise again, but in the mean time, it has tanked, and the world will pay for it.

And China will eventually catch up. It's merely a question of decades.
How? How is the US economy going to rise anywhere near its highs of today when there will be less, not more, energy available to them and it'll cost far more? The same problem is overlooked by talking heads with regards to housing prices too. You simply will not see this state of affairs again, and that's a good thing I'd say.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:How? How is the US economy going to rise anywhere near its highs of today when there will be less, not more, energy available to them and it'll cost far more? The same problem is overlooked by talking heads with regards to housing prices too. You simply will not see this state of affairs again, and that's a good thing I'd say.
What I meant that the economy will return to a situation where it will expand. But there is no doubt it will never reach the highs of the 90s again for reasons as you say.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Admiral Valdemar wrote:The US economy is worth shit. In case you missed it, your "wealth" comes from playing with numbers.

Meanwhile, the Chinese have been buying real things, like gold, oil, mines, factories and what not. At the end of the crash, who is going to be worse off? The nation with trillions in noughts and ones on some database, or the one with an actual manufacturing economy?
Well it isn't my wealth since I'm not an American but I still don't see why 13.8 trillion is "playing with numbers" while Chinese 7 trillion is not. In fact Chinese economy was recalculated recently from 10 trillion back to 7 trillion thus demonstrating it was in fact their economy that was overblown.
Secondly America does have quite a large agricultural production not to mention aerospace, automobile, steel industry etc. Why would Americans simply loose their earned money into "nothingness" because they earned it through service industry while Chinese who earned it selling steel will be immune?
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Erm, the state of the US economy at the start of the 90s is in no way comparable to the ungodly mess it is in now. It is in fact an order of magnitude worse. There is no doubt the American economy will rise again, but in the mean time, it has tanked, and the world will pay for it.
Where has it tanked? It never stopped expanding, not in 2007 and not in 2008.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:And China will eventually catch up. It's merely a question of decades.
The same thing was said about Japan. Didn't happen though.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
What I meant that the economy will return to a situation where it will expand. But there is no doubt it will never reach the highs of the 90s again for reasons as you say.
Oh, it will correct. Just don't expect endless, credit fuelled growth ever again. This was only possible because we swallowed such a Ponzi scheme and it was powered by cheap, abundant resources. All that is about to change.
Kane Starkiller wrote: Well it isn't my wealth since I'm not an American but I still don't see why 13.8 trillion is "playing with numbers" while Chinese 7 trillion is not. In fact Chinese economy was recalculated recently from 10 trillion back to 7 trillion thus demonstrating it was in fact their economy that was overblown.
Secondly America does have quite a large agricultural production not to mention aerospace, automobile, steel industry etc. Why would Americans simply loose their earned money into "nothingness" because they earned it through service industry while Chinese who earned it selling steel will be immune?
Your nation has the largest debt the world has ever seen and a manufacturing industry that is second rate at best compared to the up and coming powers. The Chinese may have a slowing economy, but they're in the black. The US is not. And Americans have no wealth to squander. Sorry, but they own nothing but debt. Having a nice agricultural industry and being able to sell iPods and services won't change that.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Admiral Valdemar wrote:Your nation has the largest debt the world has ever seen and a manufacturing industry that is second rate at best compared to the up and coming powers. The Chinese may have a slowing economy, but they're in the black. The US is not. And Americans have no wealth to squander. Sorry, but they own nothing but debt. Having a nice agricultural industry and being able to sell iPods and services won't change that.
As I said I'm not an American. US has the largest debt the world has ever seen but it also has the largest economy the world has ever seen. US external debt is $10.45 trillion compared to $13.8 trillion GDP. In comparison UK with a GDP of $2.7 trillion has an external debt equal to that of US or $10.45 trillion, Germany with a GDP of $3.32 trillion has a debt of $4.489 trillion, France with a GDP of $2.56 trillion has a debt of $4.396 trillion.
None of this, of course, changes the fact that US does in fact generate $13.8 trillion per year. The fact that it also owes money doesn't somehow negate it.
Again what is the difference between money earned through services and by selling steel? Except from the fact services won't be influenced by high energy prices like China's heavy industry which already caused high inflation in China.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Admiral Valdemar wrote:Having a nice agricultural industry and being able to sell iPods and services won't change that.
Maybe we'll have to start charging more for agricultural exports.

Seeing as we can easily be undercut on iPods.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Kane Starkiller wrote: Again what is the difference between money earned through services and by selling steel?
Somehow a nation that gains wealth by making concrete things and selling them, seems to me in a better position than a nation that gains wealth by moving numbers around on paper.

Since I lack anything resembling an actual education in economics or finance I'll look forward to someone who does, explaining why I'm mistaken.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Kane Starkiller wrote: As I said I'm not an American. US has the largest debt the world has ever seen but it also has the largest economy the world has ever seen. US external debt is $10.45 trillion compared to $13.8 trillion GDP. In comparison UK with a GDP of $2.7 trillion has an external debt equal to that of US or $10.45 trillion, Germany with a GDP of $3.32 trillion has a debt of $4.489 trillion, France with a GDP of $2.56 trillion has a debt of $4.396 trillion.
None of this, of course, changes the fact that US does in fact generate $13.8 trillion per year. The fact that it also owes money doesn't somehow negate it.
Again what is the difference between money earned through services and by selling steel? Except from the fact services won't be influenced by high energy prices like China's heavy industry which already caused high inflation in China.
Did you miss where those services will be vanishing for good now? What do you think the credit crunch means for a nation that simply plays with numbers, rather than actually make things?

That US debt will never be paid off. Ever. They could raise taxes to 100% and still not pay it off, that with a nation that will be buying more and more external energy for a higher price with ever useless dollars. China won't have that problem, and has been very smart in acquiring physical contracts with other nations for such resources by supplying communities with tools and personnel as well as money in exchange for access to whatever natural resources are being sold. Again, this is a nation not in debt, making inroads to places that will be vital to future economic growth and all the while the US is squandering what economic clout it has on stupid wars. The Chinese and Russians are laughing in this.

Especially when the US has just agreed to bail out foreigners too, thanks in no small part to some Chinese diplomacy, no doubt.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Kane Starkiller wrote:Where has it tanked? It never stopped expanding, not in 2007 and not in 2008.
:roll: It hasn't shown up in the numbers yet, but you can be certain the drop in credit is making it harder for companies to expand, and in turn sell more goods.

And yeah, not all of the 2008 numbers have turned up. Jumping the gun are we?
The same thing was said about Japan. Didn't happen though.
Japan and China have two very dissimilar cultures, and in two very different situations. So how is it what applies to Japan will apply to China? Japan never positioned itself as the manufacturing hub in the world, for example. The only reason why China will never reach the top, is if it dissolves into a civil war.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Admiral Valdemar wrote:Did you miss where those services will be vanishing for good now? What do you think the credit crunch means for a nation that simply plays with numbers, rather than actually make things?
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that service sector will be vanishing? I would sure like to see some evidence for that.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:That US debt will never be paid off. Ever. They could raise taxes to 100% and still not pay it off, that with a nation that will be buying more and more external energy for a higher price with ever useless dollars. China won't have that problem, and has been very smart in acquiring physical contracts with other nations for such resources by supplying communities with tools and personnel as well as money in exchange for access to whatever natural resources are being sold. Again, this is a nation not in debt, making inroads to places that will be vital to future economic growth and all the while the US is squandering what economic clout it has on stupid wars. The Chinese and Russians are laughing in this.
First if US raised taxes to theoretical 100% they would pay off their debt in 9 months. Secondly what about the other countries I named which have a much worse debt situation? Thirdly why would a country, which as you yourself state, doesn't produce all that much be buying more and more external energy? In fact the countries that will have to buy more and more external energy are precisely the ones with manufacturing economy which brings us to the point below.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:China won't have that problem, and has been very smart in acquiring physical contracts with other nations for such resources by supplying communities with tools and personnel as well as money in exchange for access to whatever natural resources are being sold.
China already has that problem which is exactly why they are running around Africa making any deal necessary to acquire more energy and resources. US meanwhile gets most of it's energy from the Mexican Gulf and Canada.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Again, this is a nation not in debt, making inroads to places that will be vital to future economic growth and all the while the US is squandering what economic clout it has on stupid wars. The Chinese and Russians are laughing in this.
Whether wars are stupid is still up for debate. China certainly isn't laughing but is desperately trying to find places that are not dominated by US hence their search through Africa as you point out above. Whatever we may think about the lives lost in the wars strategically the price for controlling such two countries was pretty small. Iraq borders Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey while Afghanistan borders Central Asia and China. I doubt Russia and China feel like laughing.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Especially when the US has just agreed to bail out foreigners too, thanks in no small part to some Chinese diplomacy, no doubt.
Which only underscores Chinese vulnerability to the state of their largest market. There is simply no substitute for US market. Not to mention that for all that steel, barbie dolls and host of other stuff they produce they get dollars in return. Which they later invest in US.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote::roll: It hasn't shown up in the numbers yet, but you can be certain the drop in credit is making it harder for companies to expand, and in turn sell more goods.

And yeah, not all of the 2008 numbers have turned up. Jumping the gun are we?
Well I guess then we'll just have to wait and see.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Japan and China have two very dissimilar cultures, and in two very different situations. So how is it what applies to Japan will apply to China? Japan never positioned itself as the manufacturing hub in the world, for example. The only reason why China will never reach the top, is if it dissolves into a civil war.
I didn't say I have a crystal ball. That is the point. People assume that China will continue to have high economic growth in the following decades but that is just an assumption. There is no guarantee that China will ever catch up with US.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Kane Starkiller wrote: I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that service sector will be vanishing?
Side question: is a service sector (waiting tables, washing cars, processing checks) as valuable in creating wealth, as a manufacturing sector (building cars, constructing ships, fabricating computers and aircraft and electronics)?

Gut says no.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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What does it mean to be valuable? I'm not an economist but if you get payed $5000/month to be a waiter and $2000/month to work in an assembly line then it is clear which job is more valuable.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Kane Starkiller wrote: I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that service sector will be vanishing? I would sure like to see some evidence for that.
Clearly not. The financial instruments used to magick wealth into Wall Street are going extinct. Want evidence? Turn on the TV/read a newspaper/listen to the radio/browse a news site.
First if US raised taxes to theoretical 100% they would pay off their debt in 9 months.
No, it wouldn't. Total US unfunded liabilities stands at over $53 trillion. They will never pay off such obligations.
Secondly what about the other countries I named which have a much worse debt situation? Thirdly why would a country, which as you yourself state, doesn't produce all that much be buying more and more external energy? In fact the countries that will have to buy more and more external energy are precisely the ones with manufacturing economy which brings us to the point below.
As stated above, they're not in the same boat, not that it matters, because I seem to recall this thread being about the USA, not Europe or anyone else.

And if you can't connect the dots with the US importing over half of its oil, to say nothing of natural gas too, and the rising cost of energy affecting the economy, I don't know what to say. The US still needs energy, last I checked. That the nations who make stuff tend to have more of it located closer to their borders is irrelevant. Without such sources, the US cannot survive as it is now.
China already has that problem which is exactly why they are running around Africa making any deal necessary to acquire more energy and resources. US meanwhile gets most of it's energy from the Mexican Gulf and Canada.
No, China's problem is that it grew too fast, not that it doesn't have access to the energy it needs. There, literally, isn't enough energy in the world to fuel such growth. However, China has been winning friends where the US is losing them (see the Saudis and Venezuela) along with being far closer to the last major hydrocarbon deposits to boot. The US has peaked, Mexico is going down hard and Canada cannot maintain its exports and support its own economy too at the same time. To say the US has a severe energy problem on the horizon is an understatement, but this has been detailed at length elsewhere before.
Whether wars are stupid is still up for debate. China certainly isn't laughing but is desperately trying to find places that are not dominated by US hence their search through Africa as you point out above. Whatever we may think about the lives lost in the wars strategically the price for controlling such two countries was pretty small. Iraq borders Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey while Afghanistan borders Central Asia and China. I doubt Russia and China feel like laughing.
Are you kidding? The US has no military threat to mainland China or Russia that doesn't involve total nuclear war. The Chinese and Russians are using their economic muscle to win over people, because having looked at the clusterfuck that is Iraq and A-stan, they're not in the least bit interested in following suit. You're losing money in these conflicts, not making it, and this is seriously degrading a military that is going to get a serious haircut to go with being trampled all over.
Which only underscores Chinese vulnerability to the state of their largest market. There is simply no substitute for US market. Not to mention that for all that steel, barbie dolls and host of other stuff they produce they get dollars in return. Which they later invest in US.
Or they can consider a new reserve currency, which has already been in the works. Since the US is clearly not able to carry on in this way, the Chinese and others are not going to be buying any more T-bills to watch become less than toilet paper. You think they like selling actual goods to Americans in exchange for pieces of paper that may be worth nothing somewhere down the line? Sure, they'll take a hit, but there are plenty of other nations to turn to for business, as they are doing, while the US defaults or passes more dumb legislation like today. No one would stay with the dollar if it tanked completely, even if they had a load of FOREX still around, there have been enough jitters over the currency this year. They'd simply buy up as many US assets and pillage what they can before they can't use those bills for much else. As I say, the move to actual commodities is far smarter than buying up more unserviceable US debt.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Kane Starkiller wrote:What does it mean to be valuable? I'm not an economist but if you get payed $5000/month to be a waiter and $2000/month to work in an assembly line then it is clear which job is more valuable.
By that reason, sitting on your ass is incredibly valuable, since Paris Hilton gets paid far more to do that then most of us get paid for doing jobs. The problem is that you're assessing value strictly in terms of pay, not in terms of value to society. The kind of value you're talking about does not create anything; it only shuffles money around. It's like saying that if I pay my son $200/hr to sweep the basement, then he is more valuable to our family finances than I am, because I get paid at a lower rate than that. The problem is that when I pay him, we're just playing a shell game, moving money around between us for work that doesn't really accomplish much of anything. On the other hand, if I was paying him (at some more reasonable rate) to build some huge addition onto the house (assuming he had the skills to do so), that might qualify as creation of wealth, since he's actually created something.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Precisely, Mike. Americans, and for that matter most of the First World, need to understand the value of ACTUAL products and resources, not financial instruments. When a crash comes, people flock to commodities, not to US dollars or any fiat currency, because the value you get from food and energy or manufactured products is not inherent in what makes up the bulk of our modern wealth today.

Finance replacing manufacturing as the leading money spinner in the developed world was the biggest mistake of our times.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

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Kane Starkiller wrote:What does it mean to be valuable? I'm not an economist but if you get payed $5000/month to be a waiter and $2000/month to work in an assembly line then it is clear which job is more valuable.
The pay difference might make the waiter job more valuable to the person doing that job, but I don't know that that necessarily means the waiter job is of greater value to the economy at large. For example, how much revenue is earned by people whose jobs are dependent upon the waiter's job, as opposed to the people whose jobs are dependent upon the products made by the factory worker? Does the waiter produce anything of concrete and lasting value, which can then be used in more transactions, further down the road? A material object like a car can be the focus of multiple transactions and transfers; is the same true for the time spent waiting tables?
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

Post by Darth Wong »

Part of the problem is that money is supposed to be a quantifier of economic assets and activity: it is a convenient way of quantifying resources and labour, for the purpose of trade. The fundamental concept of money becomes corrupted when the connection between resources/labour and money becomes irrational, as is the case when (for example) a wealthy operator buys up a manufacturer, fires all of its staff, closes its plants, and sells off the assets and brand names to a larger company, and pockets hundreds of millions of dollars of the difference. Or when a CEO takes over a company, fires ten thousand employees, cuts corners on costs and product quality, gets a big short-term profit boost, and then walks away with hundreds of millions in bonuses, leaving a shell-shocked company behind which now makes products of inferior quality and whose long-term prospects are seriously damaged.

Where did all of his money come from? It came not from the creation of wealth but from its destruction. And yet that is the kind of person we worship in our society today: the person who "generates" wealth which is completely out of proportion to his actual labours or value to society. In fact, as the gap between how much work you do and how much you get paid for it widens, you get more respected by society. A man who becomes a multi-billionaire by shuffling paper is venerated while countless people who work hard every day of the week are considered nobodies and nothing.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

Post by NecronLord »

Kanastrous wrote:Side question: is a service sector (waiting tables, washing cars, processing checks) as valuable in creating wealth, as a manufacturing sector (building cars, constructing ships, fabricating computers and aircraft and electronics)?

Gut says no.
Absolutely. Wealth, in an economics context, is not the same as physically making things happen; it's much more like getting rich. There's a reason all these Wall Street financiers have so much money - it's possible to make immense amounts of money without actually doing something in a mundane sense, just by increasing the perceived value of a business, for example, you're generating wealth.

This is a function of the theory of value. As a society grows more complex, it values things that have no intrinsic value - banknotes, cheques, art, shares in a company, blowjobs, whathaveyou. These have value in a stable enviroment, where everyone agrees on their value. Would you rather have me give to you, a ten thousand pound stack of banknotes, or a hundred pound television?

It's because of this subjective value, that it's possible to make money off things that aren't tangible. In a prosperous economy, (the well off) people want good food, not just baked beans on toast every night. So they buy, which generates wealth for those who say, own the Restaurants.

Now when everything is ticking along (well regulated and not backed by a finance industry apparently run by monkies) fine, there's no reason you can't generate wealth just as easily from service sectors as you can from nuts and bolts and circuit boards. Owning (or working for, to a lesser extent of course) Coca Cola can make you as rich as owning a shipyard.

Leaving aside the cost of fuel and food, that's a more long term issue, the problem with the wall-street-fecal-matter-impacting-the-rotory-air-mover is that suddenly, there's been very serious doubts over the actual value of shares and other financial commodities (due to them not actually being backed by anything but bad debt).

That's where the advantages of solid things with (comparatively) objective value kick in. Medicine is still valuable, as are guns, bauxite, tarmac, and tinned foods. But the confidence in the finances of the companies that make (or extract) these things can be just as scuppered - if the bank suddenly doesn't want to lend to them when they need money, then they can sink just as quick as a service sector company.

Of course, this is just part of the problem - with declining consumer confidence (and rising cost of living, an extant problem long before this crud-impact), people in the affected countries (the US, for example) don't want to buy as much; they're afraid for their jobs, they're taking pay cuts, they're actually going bankrupt, or ending up in the breadline... Which means that there's less people going to buy cars, less people going to fly on planes, less people going to buy computers. In this respect, secondary industries are not shielded from the effects of the credit crunch. Some things are essentially immune to these effects in the near term; the USArmy will still want blank bullets, for example, but then, some service industries are also unaffected (the government will still want cleaners or whatever).

So no, in a stable economy, there's nothing inherently better or more productive about primary and secondary sectors than the tertiary sector, they're all valid ways to make money. But as prosperity grows, the third becomes more important, because it must directly interact with consumers - waitresses need to be near the end consumer, factory workers do not - which allows outsourcing of primary and secondary sectors to more competative labourers in the peripheral countries, who can be more easily exploited.

Of course, the effect of countries moving to a service economy has nothing to do with how practical things are, and everything to do with costs. The costs of labour in China are miniscule, in a developed country, they're massive. More service jobs exist in developed countries because the people in those countries are consumers - they have good jobs, running things, flipping burgers (it's a good easy job compared to working in the coal mine) making culture (films and whatnot) and in other areas where the pay meets their expectations. Manufacturing being 'outsourced' is essentially an unavoidable aspect of Dependency Theory (which is to say, the fairly rugged theory that developed will act to keep developing nations interacting in a way that benefits them; China and India have an ability to escape this by their sheer population size compared to the rest of the world {and having a nuclear deterrent, in extremis}). China's population will eventually move to the tertiary sector, too, as they become a more prosperous society (this assumes, of course, that Asteroid Apophis won't kill us all, or that the Party won't try some dastardly scheme to keep people poor) and so become a developed nexus, they will look to export low pay (sweatshop and low skill manufacturing jobs - primary industry jobs are a special case, as they need to be located where the resource is) to periphery countries just as the USA has done in the past.

And as has been said, modern economics is far from well regulated, and allows all sorts of practices that aren't beneficial (such as buying up rivals just to asset strip, as Mike said) for the majority in the long run. These practices divorce the actual money being traded from the actual work being done (be it iron smelting or porn filming) and destabilise the subjective value of things in the market.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Clearly not. The financial instruments used to magick wealth into Wall Street are going extinct. Want evidence? Turn on the TV/read a newspaper/listen to the radio/browse a news site.
Wall Street is not the entire service sector. And no indication that it, as a whole, is gone.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:No, it wouldn't. Total US unfunded liabilities stands at over $53 trillion. They will never pay off such obligations.
In other words Social Security, pensions etc. That is a huge problem and one which most developed countries will face as will China in the future. But this is not external debt.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:As stated above, they're not in the same boat, not that it matters, because I seem to recall this thread being about the USA, not Europe or anyone else.

And if you can't connect the dots with the US importing over half of its oil, to say nothing of natural gas too, and the rising cost of energy affecting the economy, I don't know what to say. The US still needs energy, last I checked. That the nations who make stuff tend to have more of it located closer to their borders is irrelevant. Without such sources, the US cannot survive as it is now.
China also imports half of it's oil. Will it's economy be affected by the rising cost of energy? How is having resources closer not relevant? Transportation costs are lower, infrastructure is cheaper, you can protect it more easily.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:No, China's problem is that it grew too fast, not that it doesn't have access to the energy it needs. There, literally, isn't enough energy in the world to fuel such growth. However, China has been winning friends where the US is losing them (see the Saudis and Venezuela) along with being far closer to the last major hydrocarbon deposits to boot. The US has peaked, Mexico is going down hard and Canada cannot maintain its exports and support its own economy too at the same time. To say the US has a severe energy problem on the horizon is an understatement, but this has been detailed at length elsewhere before.
US accounts for 42% of Venezuelan exports while China accounts for 3.1%. In imports US accounts 26% while China accounts for 6%. While many countries have had their production flat the consumption in US also hasn't increased significantly over the past decades. Unlike Chinas. Where exactly will China find these new untapped resources that US cannot?
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Are you kidding? The US has no military threat to mainland China or Russia that doesn't involve total nuclear war. The Chinese and Russians are using their economic muscle to win over people, because having looked at the clusterfuck that is Iraq and A-stan, they're not in the least bit interested in following suit. You're losing money in these conflicts, not making it, and this is seriously degrading a military that is going to get a serious haircut to go with being trampled all over.
I didn't say they will be using Iraq and Afghanistan as staging points for an invasion merely that they can influence the region through it. Russians are commodity exporters which means all other commodity exporters are basically rivals to them. I won't debate the morality of going to war in Iraq and of course loss of every single life is regrettable but 4000 soldiers in 5 years is not that much nor is $3 trillion if the reward for sucessfully dominating Iraq is influence over the entire region.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Or they can consider a new reserve currency, which has already been in the works. Since the US is clearly not able to carry on in this way, the Chinese and others are not going to be buying any more T-bills to watch become less than toilet paper. You think they like selling actual goods to Americans in exchange for pieces of paper that may be worth nothing somewhere down the line? Sure, they'll take a hit, but there are plenty of other nations to turn to for business, as they are doing, while the US defaults or passes more dumb legislation like today. No one would stay with the dollar if it tanked completely, even if they had a load of FOREX still around, there have been enough jitters over the currency this year. They'd simply buy up as many US assets and pillage what they can before they can't use those bills for much else. As I say, the move to actual commodities is far smarter than buying up more unserviceable US debt.
Which reserve currency is that and what other nations can replace US market as a destination for Chinese exports? Secondly the dollar is currently recovering from his low.
Darth Wong wrote:By that reason, sitting on your ass is incredibly valuable, since Paris Hilton gets paid far more to do that then most of us get paid for doing jobs. The problem is that you're assessing value strictly in terms of pay, not in terms of value to society. The kind of value you're talking about does not create anything; it only shuffles money around. It's like saying that if I pay my son $200/hr to sweep the basement, then he is more valuable to our family finances than I am, because I get paid at a lower rate than that. The problem is that when I pay him, we're just playing a shell game, moving money around between us for work that doesn't really accomplish much of anything. On the other hand, if I was paying him (at some more reasonable rate) to build some huge addition onto the house (assuming he had the skills to do so), that might qualify as creation of wealth, since he's actually created something.
I agree with you that objective value is obviously greater but that is simply not how we measure value in our society. A glass of water is obviously more valuable than any amount of finest diamonds or gold. Therefore a water purifier should be far more profitable than a diamond mine but this is simply not how humans value things. This is why Paris Hilton can buy an entire army of Chinese who actually produce something which means that at the end of the day her wealth is not imaginary and neither is that of US.
So if you are saying that our society is fucked up I would agree but I don't agree with the statement that in the current world China is poised to become wealthier than US due to it's larger industrial base.
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Re: "The End of Arrogance"

Post by AdmiralKanos »

Kane Starkiller wrote:I agree with you that objective value is obviously greater but that is simply not how we measure value in our society.
It is remarkably obtuse to respond to a thread saying "our society's method of measuring wealth has become meaningless" by appealing to the way our society does things.
A glass of water is obviously more valuable than any amount of finest diamonds or gold. Therefore a water purifier should be far more profitable than a diamond mine but this is simply not how humans value things.
The validity of this statement is highly dependent upon circumstances. Water is also available in enormous quantities.
This is why Paris Hilton can buy an entire army of Chinese who actually produce something which means that at the end of the day her wealth is not imaginary and neither is that of US.
This conclusion does not follow at all from your previous statement. How do you equate demand pricing for tangible assets to arbitrary valuation of intangible assets?
So if you are saying that our society is fucked up I would agree but I don't agree with the statement that in the current world China is poised to become wealthier than US due to it's larger industrial base.
Depends on how you define "wealthy". If much of your wealth is based strictly on speculation, it can vanish overnight, as happened in Japan two decades ago and as is happening today in America.
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