SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[Steve]

You people are going to bankrupt yourselves with this outrageous spending.

I have to agree, we really need some system of deciding how our economies are going.

I mean, military spending can act as a Keynesian pump-primer as well as any other form of government spending, but it's still going to have economic consequences if overdone. Hence why I've not had Cascadia exceed $70B yet, even if it means having to wait for a fourth carrier or not being able to build my air force up. (And as it is, Cascadia does have fairly high military spending, over 5.5% of the national GDP annually.)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You people are going to bankrupt yourselves with this outrageous spending.

I have to agree, we really need some system of deciding how our economies are going.

I mean, military spending can act as a Keynesian pump-primer as well as any other form of government spending, but it's still going to have economic consequences if overdone. Hence why I've not had Cascadia exceed $70B yet, even if it means having to wait for a fourth carrier or not being able to build my air force up. (And as it is, Cascadia does have fairly high military spending, over 5.5% of the national GDP annually.)

My economy is 2.5 trillion large. The spending is hardly outrageous. As it is, my army is smaller than S. Korea's army, which has an economy of only 1.2 trillion. Of course S. Korea's navy is a lot smaller but it is growing larger by the year. I'm capping the expenditure at 8%-10%, which means I have around 200 billion to throw about. Not to mention, I intentionally stagger my purchases. Not all the 20 new Akula II Mod submarines are going to be in service at once. It will probably take 1-3 years to bring them all into service. No sense compromising training standards.

Besides, aside from Lonestar, none of you are bordering close to a hostile power. Shroom needs to learn to count before he goes around blustering. As it is, I haven't seen him so much as order anything new to build his army. Byzantium is going to regard Shroomania as an unreliable defence partner at this rate.

[Steve]

You people are going to bankrupt yourselves with this outrageous spending.

I have to agree, we really need some system of deciding how our economies are going.

I mean, military spending can act as a Keynesian pump-primer as well as any other form of government spending, but it's still going to have economic consequences if overdone. Hence why I've not had Cascadia exceed $70B yet, even if it means having to wait for a fourth carrier or not being able to build my air force up. (And as it is, Cascadia does have fairly high military spending, over 5.5% of the national GDP annually.)

My economy is 2.5 trillion large. The spending is hardly outrageous. As it is, my army is smaller than S. Korea's army, which has an economy of only 1.2 trillion. Of course S. Korea's navy is a lot smaller but it is growing larger by the year. I'm capping the expenditure at 8%-10%, which means I have around 200 billion to throw about. Not to mention, I intentionally stagger my purchases. Not all the 20 new Akula II Mod submarines are going to be in service at once. It will probably take 1-3 years to bring them all into service. No sense compromising training standards.

Besides, aside from Lonestar, none of you are bordering close to a hostile power. Shroom needs to learn to count before he goes around blustering. As it is, I haven't seen him so much as order anything new to build his army. Byzantium is going to regard Shroomania as an unreliable defence partner at this rate.

Oh, I'm not specifically condemning you. But I think we do need to try and track how our spending should affect our economies. As it is, the world is seeing what looks to be the beginnings of an arms race.

[Karmic Knight]

It makes me less likely to be targeted for termination and more likely to emerge unscathed from the nuclear holocaust, ready to assume a beneviolent dictatorship on the postapocalyptic dystopia for nearly half a century in a crazed and maddened state of techno-godhood.

You Take the Old Continent, I'll take Frequesue?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Oh, I'm not specifically condemning you. But I think we do need to try and track how our spending should affect our economies. As it is, the world is seeing what looks to be the beginnings of an arms race.

It became an arms race the moment Shep and Skimmer were part of the game.

As it was in the last STGODs. The last 1-2 years was spent burning cash to build a large navy/air force just to deal with Shep's bomber horde.

It makes me less likely to be targeted for termination and more likely to emerge unscathed from the nuclear holocaust, ready to assume a beneviolent dictatorship on the postapocalyptic dystopia for nearly half a century in a crazed and maddened state of techno-godhood.

You Take the Old Continent, I'll take Frequesue?

I wonder if there's anything left of the Old Continent after the initial trading of nukes to even take. The number of nukes launched and traded ought to be in the order of hundreds to thousands. We aren't even going to bother to count.

[Zor]

To the leaders of Cascadia and Alaska, a summit will soon be held in Zoria for the New Pacific Pact.

Zor

[Steve]

To the leaders of Cascadia and Alaska, a summit will soon be held in Zoria for the New Pacific Pact.

Zor

The Cascadian government will send an envoy who will be instructed in the Garrett Administration's goals in the Pact talks. (If it's a full head-of-state affair, though, Vice President Verdes will probably be attending.)

[Zor]

To the leaders of Cascadia and Alaska, a summit will soon be held in Zoria for the New Pacific Pact.

Zor

The Cascadian government will send an envoy who will be instructed in the Garrett Administration's goals in the Pact talks. (If it's a full head-of-state affair, though, Vice President Verdes will probably be attending.)

Yes, it is a Head-of-State Affair.

Zor

[Steve]

According to my calcs, the distance from Dalniy to Van Halstoff (and thus a good approximation of the distance to the region where Star of Sweethaven was located) is 5421.5km. Stas, what are the rangers of your transport aircraft?

I figure refueling was required either way, though last I checked I don't have any KT-15s (KC-777s) at Van Halstoff - they're all posted to Adabani and Cascadia proper now that the situation in Van Halstoff doesn't require the superior flexibility of basing them at Ketagaran in Serenity.

[Steve]

Actually, the An-124 appears to have the range to get from Dalniy to Van Halstoff. I figured that's what the CSR might send to bring Katarina home, if Stas will approve?

And I see the Tu-160 also has sufficient range to get to the area. Nice. Heh, that's one thing where Cascadia lacks; we have absolutely no strategic bombers.

[TimothyC]

While not full on Strategic Bombers, Would you be interested in some B-58Ls?

[Steve]

While not full on Strategic Bombers, Would you be interested in some B-58Ls?

Well, there's a reason we don't have them. Cascadia's military purposes don't jive well with a strategic bomber fleet.

[K. A. Pital]

I specifically sent Tu-160s as a craft that would not require refuelling mid-air. The bombers will also pick up the person - they have large crew quarters, and the flight is only 2+ hours long. Wasting kerosene and time for another flight by a slower cargo aircraft is just not necessary when we are speaking about 1 human being.

As for sinking people... I'll let is pass this time. However, the C.S.R. is commited to have no relations with Astaria at all, and the next such incident will lead to Astaria's oblivion.

[Steve]

I specifically sent Tu-160s as a craft that would not require refuelling mid-air. The bombers will also pick up the person - they have large crew quarters, and the flight is only 2+ hours long. Wasting kerosene and time for another flight by a slower cargo aircraft is just not necessary when we are speaking about 1 human being.

As for sinking people... I'll let is pass this time. However, the C.S.R. is commited to have no relations with Astaria at all, and the next such incident will lead to Astaria's oblivion.

Ah. I was going to write a post where Katarina is taken straight to whichever aircraft is there to pick her up after the carrier group returns to range of Van Halstoff. That'll be where names and homes are taken down, governments notified, and Cascadian officers debrief those they can communicate with before sending them on.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Okay, so some quick searching got me the details of Alaska's order from Shepistan:

80 F-105s
132 F-101s
25 B-56s
75 RB-56s
10 DFB-56s
Undetermined number of F-106s

I assume that most of that hardware (except for probably the B-56s and their variants, seeing as they've mostly been reserved for Japanistan) is still available in one form or another. How much for it?

[MKSheppard]

Uh......I'm not exactly sure.

[Steve]

Veg, before you protest, I wasn't exactly painting the Astarians Amber recalled in her testimony in an overly bad light. I didn't want to make them mustache-twirling evil slavers who raped the girls twice a day for fun. They're mostly businessmen and corrupt officials who had a "job" to do; make sure the volunteers weren't carrying jungle diseases, delouse them from the bad conditions they'd been living in even before initial capture, and then bluntly inform them "You're slaves now. Don't fight it and you'll be treated better." A couple overseers got tired of the message not being taken so they showed the stick: "Keep complaining and we'll beat the fuck out of you".

All in all, I figure it's a realistic expectation for how the human traffickers in Astaria will behave. And not every inspector is a corrupt guy looking for payouts. Some are simply apathetic - they want to stamp the paperwork and get their work day over with, most probably counting the days until their term overseas ends and they can return to Astaria - and some aren't blowing the whistle because they figure the only thing it'll get them is, at best, dismissal from work, and at worst, a bullet, sharp object, or blunt object to the skull.

[Norseman]

All in all, I figure it's a realistic expectation for how the human traffickers in Astaria will behave.

I'll just remind you of two things: First what Oliver Gill went through to maintain secrecy, and he did it that way for a reason. Second that Astaria is a first world country, with a functional judiciary based on the British system. It's not a third world dump where inspectors can be killed with impunity, or where everyone is on the take.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Uh......I'm not exactly sure.

Well, how quickly do you need to get rid of your surplus? I was probably thinking...flat rates of $10 million for Voodoos, $15 million for Thunderchiefs, and $20 million for Delta Darts and a base price of $30 million for Stratojets and their derivatives. Also, I'll trade you one completed T-50 Golden Eagle for every eight Thunderjets you retire, and I'll even give you a license for production of the T-50 in your own factories. Does that sound good?

[Steve]

All in all, I figure it's a realistic expectation for how the human traffickers in Astaria will behave.

I'll just remind you of two things: First what Oliver Gill went through to maintain secrecy, and he did it that way for a reason. Second that Astaria is a first world country, with a functional judiciary based on the British system. It's not a third world dump where inspectors can be killed with impunity, or where everyone is on the take.

If stuff like this can happen in the USA, where slavery is illegal, what's it going to be like in Astaria? Especially in an Astarian colony that I figure half the civil servants hate having to work anyway? And that's not even considering that bribing inspectors isn't exactly limited to 2nd and 3rd world states. And even if your judiciary is "first world" your libertarian system and your adherence to "Freedom" (for non-slaves anyway) will provide obstacles to prevention measures.

And now off to bed.

[PeZook]

The problem is that we're not talking sex-slaves. Nobody in Astaria is going to bother acquiring illegal sex-slaves, since you can just grab an illiterate Caravo girl, pay her parents and voila! Completely legal sex slave.

The problem lies in the fact that demand for educated house-slaves comes from affluent middle-class Astarian families, and you need to fake their paperwork and make arrangements to make sure the whole thing won't blow wide open. Even then, shit happens anyway (as the next installment of our slavery plot will show).

[Shroom Man 777]

CSR and Byzantium will remember to lob some nukes your way just to make sure we share the fun. But seriously, after two attacks on your property, surely you want to do more to safeguard them? We are going to find the wreck of the ship soon, and eventually we will figure it was either Shepistan or Japanistan who sank the boat. You are going to be serving a bill to Shepistan, mind you. Especially when Shepistan is the only nation in the world that possibly uses an oversized torpedo.

TWO attacks? What was the other one?

I'm capping the expenditure at 8%-10%, which means I have around 200 billion to throw about.

America's defense spending is around $540 billion. You're just shy of half of that, for a country that has a sixth of its GDP.

Shroom needs to learn to count before he goes around blustering. As it is, I haven't seen him so much as order anything new to build his army. Byzantium is going to regard Shroomania as an unreliable defence partner at this rate.

I'm building Yer Moms and upping my bomber force to have 100 B-1s by a few years and I'm modernizing my F-15s and F-16s to ACTIVEs and XLs and investing in hypersonic cruise missiles and F-22s and nuclear bombs.

What do I need an army for when the only land connection I have to the rest of the OC is a Chunnel connecting myself to Canissia?

If the Old Continent powers are going to work to provide protection to its members in case of threats like Japanistan, then there should be divisions of labor. Since Byzantium is right next door to it, sharing ground and stuff, the need for a strong ground army - and a strong everything else - is obvious. Since Shroomania is not connected by land, then the need for a strong ground army is not so high, whereas the need for a strong Navy and Airforce is - and I am working on that.

The fact is that I've been pushing for the CCCP so we can all work together and pitch in in building weapons systems where everyone's defense industries can contribute irregardless of the systems are Western/NATO or Warsaw Pact equipment. It would be bad for me to just ditch my own national defense industries and start buying stuff made abroad, since my people would crucify me for that and that would be bad for the economy.

On the other hand, unlike you guys with fancy pictographs of advanced submarines and missiles and whatnot, I happen to know jack shit on that topic - so I am at an inherent disadvantage in military knowhow. Which is why I'm uninterested in that stuff and am largely just playing for dicks and giggles.

If we get the CCCP up and running, that means even if I buy Warpac equipment, the fact that the CCCP means all our defense companies are in on it means that the purchase will still profit my dudes (and yours) and so that means if you guys come up with any new weapons systems under the CCCP - I can just go "YES" and throw money at it.

It also means all our scientists can work together and stuff.


Anyway, the fact that the Slavic National Conference is totally exclusive to you guys and leaves Shroomania out to lots of planning factors like, say, annexing the whole Border State regions, is really also doubleplusbad. We're feeling excluded and rather uneasy and from the looks of it, the Old Continent is barely a cohesive and unified front. Shroomania has extended the hand of friendship, but it's being rather coldly received. So, bleh. Maybe Shroomania should join the MESS (no, we won't).


Either way, I'm at a disadvantage when it comes down to military matters and if the game ends up with everyone haggling about how bistatic radars can do X and if this and that can kill Y and if Z can cause so-and-so megadeaths, then I'll lose interest rather quick. SDN Game 1, for all the Nukistands and Shroomzillas and Super Saddam Specials, had more interesting political actions and silliness rather than number-crunching and digested editions of Janes.


On the other hand, I could just ask Shep for military advice.

[PeZook]

I don't have a problem with Byzantine military spending. He declared, right at the start of the game, that Byzantium spends 10% on defence.

This is completely sustainable. What kills the economy are sudden changes and surges, which by their very nature have to be paid for with deficit. If Byzantium built up their spending over years, responsibly and raised taxes to compensate, there's nothing preventing them from having such large spending.

As for Shroom, well, give the guy a break. He upped his spending 100% already

And we do have a bunch special submarines almost complete, giving the OC a mediterrenean deterrent force.

[Norseman]

The problem is that we're not talking sex-slaves. Nobody in Astaria is going to bother acquiring illegal sex-slaves, since you can just grab an illiterate Caravo girl, pay her parents and voila! Completely legal sex slave.

Precisely, for that matter there are millions of regular slaves just buy a pretty one and use her for sex. It's really not worth the bother to import foreigners to be used in brothels and what not.

The problem lies in the fact that demand for educated house-slaves comes from affluent middle-class Astarian families, and you need to fake their paperwork and make arrangements to make sure the whole thing won't blow wide open. Even then, shit happens anyway (as the next installment of our slavery plot will show).

Exactly, this need, and the need of businesses for the same, is what's driving up the prices for educated and refined slaves. There are of course personal slaves, private playthings, but once more they are more expensive and require a lot of work to make them, well, work.

[PeZook]

There. The Yer Moms revealed!

It's sketchy about details, but I don't want to get in a two-page row over screwing up obscure technical details