Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
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Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
First saw this story elsewhere, but wasn't sure what to make of it -- now Fox News has picked it up, so I guess there may be some legimitacy to the claims:
Link
Mysterious Cargo Aboard Iranian Ship Seized by Pirates Raises WMD Concerns
Tuesday, September 30, 2008
By Joseph Abrams
As Somali pirates brazenly maintain their standoff with American warships off the coast of Africa, the cargo aboard one Iranian ship they commandeered is raising concerns that it may contain materials that can be used for chemical or biological weapons.
Some local officials suspect that instead of finding riches, the pirates encountered deadly chemical agents aboard the Iranian vessel.
On Aug. 21, the pirates, armed with AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades, stole onto the decks of the merchant vessel Iran Deyanat.
They ransacked the ship and searched the containers. But in the days following the hijacking, a number of them fell ill and died, suffering skin burns and hair loss, according to reports.
The pirates were sickened because of their contact with the seized cargo, according to Hassan Osman, the Somali minister of Minerals and Oil, who met with the pirates to facilitate negotiations.
"That ship is unusual," Osman told the Long War Journal, an online news source that covers the War on Terror. "It is not carrying a normal shipment."
The pirates reportedly were in talks to sell the ship back to Iran, but the deal fell through when the pirates were poisoned by the cargo, according to Andrew Mwangura, director of the Kenya-based East African Seafarers' Assistance Program.
"Yes, some of them have died," he told the Long War Journal. "Our sources say [the ship] contains chemicals, dangerous chemicals."
Iran has called the allegations a "sheer lie," and said that the ship "had no dangerous consignment on board," according to Iranian news source Press TV. Iran says the merchant vessel was shipping iron ore from a port in China to Amsterdam.
The ship's contents are still unclear, but the reported deaths and skin abrasions have raised concerns that it could be more than meets the eye.
The massive shipping company that controls the vessel, the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Line (IRISL), was recently designated by the U.S. Department of the Treasury over nuclear proliferation concerns. IRISL, which is accused of falsifying documents to facilitate the shipment of weapons and chemicals for use in Iran's missile program, is blocked from moving money through U.S. banks as well as from carrying food and medical supplies as part of U.S. trade sanctions against Iran.
"IRISL's actions are part of a broader pattern of deception and fabrication that Iran uses to advance its nuclear and missile programs," said Stuart Levey, Undersecretary of the Treasury for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence.
The U.S. government has made no accusation against IRISL regarding the Iran Denayat; the State Department would not comment on reports of its suspicious cargo.
"I don't have any information on that case," said State Department spokesman Curtis Cooper. "We're aware that there are currently 12 other hijacked ships off the Somali coast. This is obviously something that is disturbing."
Experts on Somalia are dubious of claims made by the country's provisional government, whose president, Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed, reportedly has family ties to the pirates.
"I'm not saying it's impossible that this has happened, but I'd take anything they say with a great deal of salt," said J. Peter Pham, director of the Nelson Institute for International and Public Affairs at James Madison University. "They have made fanciful claims before in the hopes of attracting U.S. and other international attention."
Pham said that the 14 provisional governments that have ruled Somalia since 1991 have all relied on foreign aid for support and profit and could be trying to attract attention by inflating the current crisis.
"Would it be beyond them to raise the specter of WMDs in order to attract resources and international assistance? The only source of revenue for this government is foreign aid," he told FOXNews.com.
Chemical experts say the reports sound inconsistent with chemical poisoning, but may reflect the effects of exposure to radiation.
"It's baffling," said Jonathan Tucker, a senior fellow at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies. "I'm not aware of any chemical agent that produces loss of hair within a few days. That's more suggestive of high levels of radioactive waste."
Tucker, a chemical and biological weapons expert, said that Chinese companies have been implicated in selling Iran so-called dual-use chemicals, legal ingredients that can be processed into chemical weapons.
The U.S. government says that Iran maintains facilities to process those chemicals as part of a chemical and biological weapons program. "Iran continues to seek dual-use technologies that could be used for biological warfare," said Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell in testimony before Congress in February.
But while Iran has purchased and shipped such chemicals in the past, it remains unclear whether the Iran Deyanat contains any illegal chemicals or harmful agents.
"A number of Chinese companies have been implicated in this illicit trade, but I've never heard of extremely toxic chemicals being shipped," Tucker told FOXNews.com. "It's very rare it's very unlikely that a country would ship manufactured weapons from one country to another."
The original Source:
[url=http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... nds_hi.php[/url]
Written by Nick Grace & Abdiweli Ali, Ph.D.
A tense standoff is underway in northeastern Somalia between pirates, Somali authorities, and Iran over a suspicious merchant vessel and its mysterious cargo. Hijacked late last month in the Gulf of Aden, the MV Iran Deyanat remains moored offshore in Somali waters and inaccessible for inspection. Its declared cargo consists of minerals and industrial products, however, Somali and regional officials directly involved in the negotiations over the ship and who spoke to The Long War Journal are convinced that it was heading to Eritrea to deliver small arms and chemical weapons to Somalia's Islamist insurgents.
It was business as usual when speedboats surrounded the MV Iran Deyanat on August 21. The 44468 dead weight tonnage bulk carrier was pushing towards the Suez and had just entered the Gulf of Aden - dangerous waters where instability, greed and no-questions-asked ransom payments have led to a recent surge in piracy. Steaming past the Horn of Africa, 82 nautical miles southeast of al-Makalla in Yemen, the ship was a prize for the taking. It would bring hundreds of thousands of dollars - possibly millions - to the Somalia-based crime syndicate. The captain was defenseless against the 40 pirates armed with AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades blocking his passage. He had little choice other than to turn his ship over to them. What the pirates were not banking on, however, was that this was no ordinary ship.
The MV Iran Deyanat is owned and operated by the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines (IRISL) - a state-owned company run by the Iranian military that was sanctioned by the U.S. Department of the Treasury on September 10, shortly after the ship's hijacking. According to the U.S. Government, the company regularly falsifies shipping documents in order to hide the identity of end users, uses generic terms to describe shipments to avoid the attention of shipping authorities, and employs the use of cover entities to circumvent United Nations sanctions to facilitate weapons proliferation for the Iranian Ministry of Defense.
The MV Iran Deyanat set sail from Nanjing, China, at the end of July and, according to its manifest, planned to travel to Rotterdam, where it would unload 42,500 tons of iron ore and "industrial products" purchased by a German client. Its arrival in the Gulf of Aden, Somali officials tell The Long War Journal, was suspiciously early. According to a publicly available status report on the IRISL Web site, the ship reached the Gulf on August 20 and was scheduled to reach the Suez Canal on August 27 - a seven day journey. "Depending on the speed of the ship," Puntland Minister of Ports Ahmed Siad Nur said in a phone interview on Saturday, "it should take between 4 and 5 days to reach Suez."
Suspicion has also been cast on the ship's crew, half of which is almost entirely staffed by Iranians - a large percentage of Iranian nationals for a standard merchant vessel. Somali officials say that the ship has a crew of 29 men, including a Pakistani captain, an Iranian engineer, 13 other Iranians, 3 Indians, 2 Filipinos, and 10 Eastern Europeans, possibly Croatian.
The MV Iran Deyanat was brought to Eyl, a sleepy fishing village in northeastern Somalia, and was secured by a larger gang of pirates - 50 onboard and 50 onshore. Within days, pirates who had boarded the ship developed strange health complications, skin burns and loss of hair. Independent sources tell The Long War Journal that a number of pirates have also died. "Yes, some of them have died. I do not know exactly how many but the information that I am getting is that some of them have died," Andrew Mwangura, Director of the East African Seafarers' Assistance Program, said Friday when reached by phone in Mombasa.
News about the illness and the toxic cargo quickly reached Garowe, seat of the government for the autonomous region of Puntland. Angered over the wave of piracy and suspicious about the Iranian ship, authorities dispatched a delegation led by Minister of Minerals and Oil Hassan Allore Osman to investigate the situation on September 4. Osman also confirmed to The Long War Journal that during the six days he negotiated with the pirates members of the syndicate had become sick and died. "That ship is unusual," he said. "It is not carrying a normal shipment."
The delegation faced a tense situation in Eyl, Osman recounts. The syndicate had demanded a $9 million ransom for 10 ships that were in its possession and refused permission to inspect the Iranian vessel. At one point, he said, the pirates threatened to "blow up" the MV Iran Deyanat if authorities tried to inspect it with force. A committee of delegate members and Eyl city officials was formed to negotiate directly with the pirates in order to defuse the situation.
Once in direct contact, the pirates told Osman that they had attempted to inspect the ship's seven cargo containers after they developed health complications but the containers were locked. The crew claimed that they did not have the "access codes" and could not open them. The delegation secured contact with the captain and the engineer by cell phone and demanded to know the nature of the cargo, however, Osman says that "they were saying different things to different people." Initially they said that the cargo contained "crude oil" but then claimed it contained "minerals."
"The secrecy is not clear to us," Mwangura said about the cargo. "Our sources say it contains chemicals, dangerous chemicals." IRISL has flatly denied the ship is carrying a "dangerous consignment" and has threatened legal action against Mwangura.
The syndicate set the ship's ransom at $2 million and the Iranian government provided $200,000 to a local broker "to facilitate the exchange." Iran refutes that it agreed to the price and has paid any money to the pirates. Nevertheless, after sanctions were applied to IRISL on September 10, Osman says, the Iranians told the pirates that the deal was off. "They told the pirates that they could not come because of the presence of the U.S. Navy." The region is patrolled by the multinational Combined Taskforce 150, which includes ships from the U.S. Navy's Fifth Fleet.
In a strange twist, the Iranian press claims that the U.S. has offered to pay a $7 million bribe to the pirates to "receive entry permission and search the vessel." Officials in the Pentagon and the Department of State approached for this story refused to comment on the situation. Somali officials would also not comment on any direct U.S. involvement but one high-level official in the Puntland government told The Long War Journal "I can say the ship is of interest to a lot of people, including Puntland."
The exact nature of the cargo remains a mystery but officials in Puntland and Baidoa are convinced the ship was carrying weapons to Eritrea for Islamist insurgents. "We cannot inspect the cargo yet," Osman said, "but we are sure that it is weapons."
"Puntland requested the pirates two weeks ago to hand over this Iranian ship, saying that it is carrying weapons to Eritrea," Puntland Fisheries Minister Abdulqadir Muse Yusuf told Reuters. "I have seen food and other odd items on the ship but I do not know what is hidden underneath."
Iran's involvement in the conflict in Somalia on behalf of Islamist insurgents is well documented. In 2006, Iran flouted arms embargos and provided sophisticated anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons to the Islamic Courts Union (ICU), intelligence sources told The Long War Journal, including SA-7 Strella and SA-18 Igla MANPADS - shoulder fired surface-to-air missiles - as well as AT-3 Sagger antitank missiles.
A report issued by the United Nations in 2006 states that weapons were transferred to Somalia through Lebanon-based Hezbollah, which also absorbed a contingent of 700 Islamist fighters from Somalia during Hezbollah's war with Israel. The report also states that Iran provided support for Islamist training camps inside Somalia and had sent two emissaries to negotiate with the ICU for access to Somalia's uranium mines.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, I'm scratching my head over this -- it can't be high level radioactive waste; because why would Iran ship the stuff overseas for burial when it can just bury the stuff in it's own deserts? Truly bizarre
Link
Mysterious Cargo Aboard Iranian Ship Seized by Pirates Raises WMD Concerns
Tuesday, September 30, 2008
By Joseph Abrams
As Somali pirates brazenly maintain their standoff with American warships off the coast of Africa, the cargo aboard one Iranian ship they commandeered is raising concerns that it may contain materials that can be used for chemical or biological weapons.
Some local officials suspect that instead of finding riches, the pirates encountered deadly chemical agents aboard the Iranian vessel.
On Aug. 21, the pirates, armed with AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades, stole onto the decks of the merchant vessel Iran Deyanat.
They ransacked the ship and searched the containers. But in the days following the hijacking, a number of them fell ill and died, suffering skin burns and hair loss, according to reports.
The pirates were sickened because of their contact with the seized cargo, according to Hassan Osman, the Somali minister of Minerals and Oil, who met with the pirates to facilitate negotiations.
"That ship is unusual," Osman told the Long War Journal, an online news source that covers the War on Terror. "It is not carrying a normal shipment."
The pirates reportedly were in talks to sell the ship back to Iran, but the deal fell through when the pirates were poisoned by the cargo, according to Andrew Mwangura, director of the Kenya-based East African Seafarers' Assistance Program.
"Yes, some of them have died," he told the Long War Journal. "Our sources say [the ship] contains chemicals, dangerous chemicals."
Iran has called the allegations a "sheer lie," and said that the ship "had no dangerous consignment on board," according to Iranian news source Press TV. Iran says the merchant vessel was shipping iron ore from a port in China to Amsterdam.
The ship's contents are still unclear, but the reported deaths and skin abrasions have raised concerns that it could be more than meets the eye.
The massive shipping company that controls the vessel, the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Line (IRISL), was recently designated by the U.S. Department of the Treasury over nuclear proliferation concerns. IRISL, which is accused of falsifying documents to facilitate the shipment of weapons and chemicals for use in Iran's missile program, is blocked from moving money through U.S. banks as well as from carrying food and medical supplies as part of U.S. trade sanctions against Iran.
"IRISL's actions are part of a broader pattern of deception and fabrication that Iran uses to advance its nuclear and missile programs," said Stuart Levey, Undersecretary of the Treasury for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence.
The U.S. government has made no accusation against IRISL regarding the Iran Denayat; the State Department would not comment on reports of its suspicious cargo.
"I don't have any information on that case," said State Department spokesman Curtis Cooper. "We're aware that there are currently 12 other hijacked ships off the Somali coast. This is obviously something that is disturbing."
Experts on Somalia are dubious of claims made by the country's provisional government, whose president, Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed, reportedly has family ties to the pirates.
"I'm not saying it's impossible that this has happened, but I'd take anything they say with a great deal of salt," said J. Peter Pham, director of the Nelson Institute for International and Public Affairs at James Madison University. "They have made fanciful claims before in the hopes of attracting U.S. and other international attention."
Pham said that the 14 provisional governments that have ruled Somalia since 1991 have all relied on foreign aid for support and profit and could be trying to attract attention by inflating the current crisis.
"Would it be beyond them to raise the specter of WMDs in order to attract resources and international assistance? The only source of revenue for this government is foreign aid," he told FOXNews.com.
Chemical experts say the reports sound inconsistent with chemical poisoning, but may reflect the effects of exposure to radiation.
"It's baffling," said Jonathan Tucker, a senior fellow at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies. "I'm not aware of any chemical agent that produces loss of hair within a few days. That's more suggestive of high levels of radioactive waste."
Tucker, a chemical and biological weapons expert, said that Chinese companies have been implicated in selling Iran so-called dual-use chemicals, legal ingredients that can be processed into chemical weapons.
The U.S. government says that Iran maintains facilities to process those chemicals as part of a chemical and biological weapons program. "Iran continues to seek dual-use technologies that could be used for biological warfare," said Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell in testimony before Congress in February.
But while Iran has purchased and shipped such chemicals in the past, it remains unclear whether the Iran Deyanat contains any illegal chemicals or harmful agents.
"A number of Chinese companies have been implicated in this illicit trade, but I've never heard of extremely toxic chemicals being shipped," Tucker told FOXNews.com. "It's very rare it's very unlikely that a country would ship manufactured weapons from one country to another."
The original Source:
[url=http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... nds_hi.php[/url]
Written by Nick Grace & Abdiweli Ali, Ph.D.
A tense standoff is underway in northeastern Somalia between pirates, Somali authorities, and Iran over a suspicious merchant vessel and its mysterious cargo. Hijacked late last month in the Gulf of Aden, the MV Iran Deyanat remains moored offshore in Somali waters and inaccessible for inspection. Its declared cargo consists of minerals and industrial products, however, Somali and regional officials directly involved in the negotiations over the ship and who spoke to The Long War Journal are convinced that it was heading to Eritrea to deliver small arms and chemical weapons to Somalia's Islamist insurgents.
It was business as usual when speedboats surrounded the MV Iran Deyanat on August 21. The 44468 dead weight tonnage bulk carrier was pushing towards the Suez and had just entered the Gulf of Aden - dangerous waters where instability, greed and no-questions-asked ransom payments have led to a recent surge in piracy. Steaming past the Horn of Africa, 82 nautical miles southeast of al-Makalla in Yemen, the ship was a prize for the taking. It would bring hundreds of thousands of dollars - possibly millions - to the Somalia-based crime syndicate. The captain was defenseless against the 40 pirates armed with AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades blocking his passage. He had little choice other than to turn his ship over to them. What the pirates were not banking on, however, was that this was no ordinary ship.
The MV Iran Deyanat is owned and operated by the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines (IRISL) - a state-owned company run by the Iranian military that was sanctioned by the U.S. Department of the Treasury on September 10, shortly after the ship's hijacking. According to the U.S. Government, the company regularly falsifies shipping documents in order to hide the identity of end users, uses generic terms to describe shipments to avoid the attention of shipping authorities, and employs the use of cover entities to circumvent United Nations sanctions to facilitate weapons proliferation for the Iranian Ministry of Defense.
The MV Iran Deyanat set sail from Nanjing, China, at the end of July and, according to its manifest, planned to travel to Rotterdam, where it would unload 42,500 tons of iron ore and "industrial products" purchased by a German client. Its arrival in the Gulf of Aden, Somali officials tell The Long War Journal, was suspiciously early. According to a publicly available status report on the IRISL Web site, the ship reached the Gulf on August 20 and was scheduled to reach the Suez Canal on August 27 - a seven day journey. "Depending on the speed of the ship," Puntland Minister of Ports Ahmed Siad Nur said in a phone interview on Saturday, "it should take between 4 and 5 days to reach Suez."
Suspicion has also been cast on the ship's crew, half of which is almost entirely staffed by Iranians - a large percentage of Iranian nationals for a standard merchant vessel. Somali officials say that the ship has a crew of 29 men, including a Pakistani captain, an Iranian engineer, 13 other Iranians, 3 Indians, 2 Filipinos, and 10 Eastern Europeans, possibly Croatian.
The MV Iran Deyanat was brought to Eyl, a sleepy fishing village in northeastern Somalia, and was secured by a larger gang of pirates - 50 onboard and 50 onshore. Within days, pirates who had boarded the ship developed strange health complications, skin burns and loss of hair. Independent sources tell The Long War Journal that a number of pirates have also died. "Yes, some of them have died. I do not know exactly how many but the information that I am getting is that some of them have died," Andrew Mwangura, Director of the East African Seafarers' Assistance Program, said Friday when reached by phone in Mombasa.
News about the illness and the toxic cargo quickly reached Garowe, seat of the government for the autonomous region of Puntland. Angered over the wave of piracy and suspicious about the Iranian ship, authorities dispatched a delegation led by Minister of Minerals and Oil Hassan Allore Osman to investigate the situation on September 4. Osman also confirmed to The Long War Journal that during the six days he negotiated with the pirates members of the syndicate had become sick and died. "That ship is unusual," he said. "It is not carrying a normal shipment."
The delegation faced a tense situation in Eyl, Osman recounts. The syndicate had demanded a $9 million ransom for 10 ships that were in its possession and refused permission to inspect the Iranian vessel. At one point, he said, the pirates threatened to "blow up" the MV Iran Deyanat if authorities tried to inspect it with force. A committee of delegate members and Eyl city officials was formed to negotiate directly with the pirates in order to defuse the situation.
Once in direct contact, the pirates told Osman that they had attempted to inspect the ship's seven cargo containers after they developed health complications but the containers were locked. The crew claimed that they did not have the "access codes" and could not open them. The delegation secured contact with the captain and the engineer by cell phone and demanded to know the nature of the cargo, however, Osman says that "they were saying different things to different people." Initially they said that the cargo contained "crude oil" but then claimed it contained "minerals."
"The secrecy is not clear to us," Mwangura said about the cargo. "Our sources say it contains chemicals, dangerous chemicals." IRISL has flatly denied the ship is carrying a "dangerous consignment" and has threatened legal action against Mwangura.
The syndicate set the ship's ransom at $2 million and the Iranian government provided $200,000 to a local broker "to facilitate the exchange." Iran refutes that it agreed to the price and has paid any money to the pirates. Nevertheless, after sanctions were applied to IRISL on September 10, Osman says, the Iranians told the pirates that the deal was off. "They told the pirates that they could not come because of the presence of the U.S. Navy." The region is patrolled by the multinational Combined Taskforce 150, which includes ships from the U.S. Navy's Fifth Fleet.
In a strange twist, the Iranian press claims that the U.S. has offered to pay a $7 million bribe to the pirates to "receive entry permission and search the vessel." Officials in the Pentagon and the Department of State approached for this story refused to comment on the situation. Somali officials would also not comment on any direct U.S. involvement but one high-level official in the Puntland government told The Long War Journal "I can say the ship is of interest to a lot of people, including Puntland."
The exact nature of the cargo remains a mystery but officials in Puntland and Baidoa are convinced the ship was carrying weapons to Eritrea for Islamist insurgents. "We cannot inspect the cargo yet," Osman said, "but we are sure that it is weapons."
"Puntland requested the pirates two weeks ago to hand over this Iranian ship, saying that it is carrying weapons to Eritrea," Puntland Fisheries Minister Abdulqadir Muse Yusuf told Reuters. "I have seen food and other odd items on the ship but I do not know what is hidden underneath."
Iran's involvement in the conflict in Somalia on behalf of Islamist insurgents is well documented. In 2006, Iran flouted arms embargos and provided sophisticated anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons to the Islamic Courts Union (ICU), intelligence sources told The Long War Journal, including SA-7 Strella and SA-18 Igla MANPADS - shoulder fired surface-to-air missiles - as well as AT-3 Sagger antitank missiles.
A report issued by the United Nations in 2006 states that weapons were transferred to Somalia through Lebanon-based Hezbollah, which also absorbed a contingent of 700 Islamist fighters from Somalia during Hezbollah's war with Israel. The report also states that Iran provided support for Islamist training camps inside Somalia and had sent two emissaries to negotiate with the ICU for access to Somalia's uranium mines.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, I'm scratching my head over this -- it can't be high level radioactive waste; because why would Iran ship the stuff overseas for burial when it can just bury the stuff in it's own deserts? Truly bizarre
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
An awful lot of industrial chemicals might cause skin burns or even death if mishandled, without being actual chemical weapons. I cannot see any reason why Iran would be shipping such things around, even if they wanted to give another nation chemical weapons, which I highly doubt, they wouldn’t do it by just sending over a shipload. I suppose a load of precursor chemicals is possible. Most likely though this is just a rumor.
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
It sounds a bit like radiation poisoning also.Sea Skimmer wrote:without being actual chemical weapons
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
It does sound like it, I am no expert (infact, I am only a first year university student), but from what I have read it sounds just like the aftermath of the atomic bomb dropping on Japan. To quote Oppenheimer, "If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst into the sky at once, then that would be like the splendour of the mighty one... I am become death the shatterer of worlds."CJvR wrote:It sounds a bit like radiation poisoning also.Sea Skimmer wrote:without being actual chemical weapons
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Well if they truly are getting sick from radiation that would mean there is radiation leaking out from the cargo, and if that is the case a simple pass over ahead with a satellite would clear the matter up with out a problem.A Social Democrat wrote:It does sound like it, I am no expert (infact, I am only a first year university student), but from what I have read it sounds just like the aftermath of the atomic bomb dropping on Japan. To quote Oppenheimer, "If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst into the sky at once, then that would be like the splendour of the mighty one... I am become death the shatterer of worlds."CJvR wrote:It sounds a bit like radiation poisoning also.Sea Skimmer wrote:without being actual chemical weapons
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Radiation is found in more than just uranium - it could be anything from poorly disposed of medical waste (South America has seen a number of deaths from discard medical imaging machines) to components for dirty bombs to... well, any number of things.
And while chemicals may not cause such symptoms in mere days, there's no telling how long or how often these pirate are exposed to dangerous or toxic things.
And while chemicals may not cause such symptoms in mere days, there's no telling how long or how often these pirate are exposed to dangerous or toxic things.
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
True I know of several hospitals that have to dispose of radioactive waste products. Especially things like dyes and such.Broomstick wrote:Radiation is found in more than just uranium - it could be anything from poorly disposed of medical waste (South America has seen a number of deaths from discard medical imaging machines) to components for dirty bombs to... well, any number of things.
And while chemicals may not cause such symptoms in mere days, there's no telling how long or how often these pirate are exposed to dangerous or toxic things.
"There are very few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of photon torpedoes
Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Quite. I remember a story from a few years ago about some poor slum dewllers that found a funny gel that glowed in the dark and used it for decoration and makeup - not a good idea!
I thought Roman candles meant they were imported. - Kelly Bundy
12 yards long, two lanes wide it's 65 tons of American pride, Canyonero! - Simpsons
Support the KKK environmental program - keep the Arctic white!
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
I remember that story, except that it was a creepy episode of Captain Planet. That actually happened?CJvR wrote:Quite. I remember a story from a few years ago about some poor slum dewllers that found a funny gel that glowed in the dark and used it for decoration and makeup - not a good idea!
Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Um, no? You should go to sources other then TV for your information about radiation. Depending on the type, where it is located on the ship, and any number of other things they are unlikely to detect anything at all. That they showed symptoms so fast suggests alpha radiation to me as most anything else would be easier to notice. Alpha is a danger if you ingest it, otherwise its mean free path is so short and cross section for absorption so large that it is easily blocked (read as: hard to detect). A gamma or neutron source, which might be detectable from space (though I doubt it) would feel like blasting heat for those kind of concentrations. Betas are another option, but aren't created as easily as alphas - natural decay of all kinds of things releases alphas so it is the most likely.dragon wrote:Well if they truly are getting sick from radiation that would mean there is radiation leaking out from the cargo, and if that is the case a simple pass over ahead with a satellite would clear the matter up with out a problem.
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Let see how about "Remote Sensing and Image Interpretation" fourth edition by Dr. Lillesand and Kiefer.Ender wrote:Um, no? You should go to sources other then TV for your information about radiation. Depending on the type, where it is located on the ship, and any number of other things they are unlikely to detect anything at all. That they showed symptoms so fast suggests alpha radiation to me as most anything else would be easier to notice. Alpha is a danger if you ingest it, otherwise its mean free path is so short and cross section for absorption so large that it is easily blocked (read as: hard to detect). A gamma or neutron source, which might be detectable from space (though I doubt it) would feel like blasting heat for those kind of concentrations. Betas are another option, but aren't created as easily as alphas - natural decay of all kinds of things releases alphas so it is the most likely.dragon wrote:Well if they truly are getting sick from radiation that would mean there is radiation leaking out from the cargo, and if that is the case a simple pass over ahead with a satellite would clear the matter up with out a problem.
Modern multispectral and hyperspectral sensor can easily detect even a small amount of radiation from a satellite based system. Hell they can detect minerals and other stuff that are still under ground. So I think I will take the info provided in the text book over the info you are trying to pedal.
"There are very few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of photon torpedoes
Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Why not, it's not like this is my job or anything. Or that my life has depended on my ability to ensure adequate shielding around radioactive materials. It's not like I was handling radioactive materials before I was old enough to legally drink. Clearly I'm just pedaling nonsense.dragon wrote:Let see how about "Remote Sensing and Image Interpretation" fourth edition by Dr. Lillesand and Kiefer.
Modern multispectral and hyperspectral sensor can easily detect even a small amount of radiation from a satellite based system. Hell they can detect minerals and other stuff that are still under ground. So I think I will take the info provided in the text book over the info you are trying to pedal.
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So what have you got for your energy levels and probable source? Gold stars awarded for creativity!
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't something as thin as a sheet of paper capable of blocking alpha radiation?
Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
I agree with Ender--while this sounds like radiation sickness, it's onset was extremely fast. My first reaction is that this is a bogus story, because the symptoms described should be taking place a week or two after exposure and the latency phase, and they shouldn't die. Normally you wouldn't be losing hair that quickly for one, so this sounds like a very hot piece of cargo. They mentioned feeling ill--but not bleeding from their mouth or other places, so it again sounds a little off. Combine that with death... and the only kind of radioactive thing it could be would be extremely lethal and would probably need to be taken internally. Possibly a powderized radioactive something that they swallowed or breathed in when they were inspecting the cargo and not sure of what it was. To die within a week or so requires a lot of radiation. I really find it hard to believe.
How many sieverts would that be? Hundreds? If it's alpha particles, that's still like... 50-100 sievert, right? I'm a layman on this though, so if someone can correct me, that'd be great. For something to be that hot it would probably be transuranic or some other form of high level waste, poorly contained so they could get at it easily, have been intended for remote handling with a high contact rating, and they would have had to have touched it. I could see that happening, but man, I didn't think that Iran had any facility capable of creating this kind of crap, so I'm still a little unsure of the validity of the article.
Given all that, wouldn't a chemical burn be more likely?
How many sieverts would that be? Hundreds? If it's alpha particles, that's still like... 50-100 sievert, right? I'm a layman on this though, so if someone can correct me, that'd be great. For something to be that hot it would probably be transuranic or some other form of high level waste, poorly contained so they could get at it easily, have been intended for remote handling with a high contact rating, and they would have had to have touched it. I could see that happening, but man, I didn't think that Iran had any facility capable of creating this kind of crap, so I'm still a little unsure of the validity of the article.
Given all that, wouldn't a chemical burn be more likely?
Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Or your skin. This is one of the reasons why it would either be a really potent piece of radioactive material, or they might have had to take the material internally somehow. For a good discussion on this kind of event, go look back to that spy who died in London under suspicious circumstances and was possibly poisoned by Polonium.SylasGaunt wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't something as thin as a sheet of paper capable of blocking alpha radiation?
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
If we wanted to use remote sensing to check the ship for radiation we’d just send out a Global Hawk with a suitable payload, rather then forcing a satellite to burn fuel to look at an area which is 100% accessible. But then, if we really did think this report had any credibility we’d probably go much further then that, and send a SEAL team with diving gear out to get right up to the hull.
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Pretty much. The strange staggering of the symptoms is another thing that makes me think it has to be a particle emitter rather then a hard emitter - you can easily get contamination on something and then keep re-exposing yourself.Covenant wrote:I agree with Ender--while this sounds like radiation sickness, it's onset was extremely fast. My first reaction is that this is a bogus story, because the symptoms described should be taking place a week or two after exposure and the latency phase, and they shouldn't die. Normally you wouldn't be losing hair that quickly for one, so this sounds like a very hot piece of cargo. They mentioned feeling ill--but not bleeding from their mouth or other places, so it again sounds a little off. Combine that with death... and the only kind of radioactive thing it could be would be extremely lethal and would probably need to be taken internally. Possibly a powderized radioactive something that they swallowed or breathed in when they were inspecting the cargo and not sure of what it was. To die within a week or so requires a lot of radiation. I really find it hard to believe.
Sieverts and Rem are equivalent biological damage, which means you need a conversation factor to convert the units, and if you want to be more precise, know what part of the body was exposed. Grays and rad are energy absorption. So the hair loss, nausea, etc along with the time line - the article gives a latency time of "days", so my guess is they got a dose of something like 5-8 grays. I suppose it could go up to 10 grays (when I limited it to 8 earlier I messed up my stages, >10 is the dead man walking stage), but I think that is stretching it in terms of what the heck could reasonably be the material they encountered.How many sieverts would that be? Hundreds? If it's alpha particles, that's still like... 50-100 sievert, right?
Doesn't have to be a transuranic, it just needs to be an unstable alpha emitter. For example, Cobalt-60 is really nasty stuff, but Co is only #27 on the periodic tableI'm a layman on this though, so if someone can correct me, that'd be great. For something to be that hot it would probably be transuranic or some other form of high level waste, poorly contained so they could get at it easily, have been intended for remote handling with a high contact rating, and they would have had to have touched it. I could see that happening, but man, I didn't think that Iran had any facility capable of creating this kind of crap, so I'm still a little unsure of the validity of the article.
Could be, but the symptoms are really similar to radiation poisoning.Given all that, wouldn't a chemical burn be more likely?
You skin is, but breathing it or drinking something with an alpha emitter in it will really screw you up.SylasGaunt wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't something as thin as a sheet of paper capable of blocking alpha radiation?
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
It's important to remember in radiation poisoning cases that it's really, really, really hard to die from radiation exposure unless you get it inside your body, at which point you're fucked. Exposure to even ionizing radiation requires extremely high doses at extremely close ranges; I think Stuart once said that you can certainly receive enough radiation from a nuclear event to kill you, but only at a range where your body would have already been reduced to the size and consistency of a McDonalds Hamburger by the thermal effects, rendering the radiation rather pointless. Most actual radiation poisoning comes from ingestion or inhalation of radioactive particles (this is also why gas masks are actually effective even by themselves in a radiation environment).
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
This is only true when talking about people out in the open. Once you bring armoured vehicles into the equation, it becomes much easier to soft kill the crew with a lethal dose of radiation than it is to try to destroy or immobilize the vehicle with heat and blast effects. That is why enhanced radiation weapons came into existence, and even for unprotected troops the lethal radius of an ERW is greater than the heat and blast effects.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Exposure to even ionizing radiation requires extremely high doses at extremely close ranges; I think Stuart once said that you can certainly receive enough radiation from a nuclear event to kill you, but only at a range where your body would have already been reduced to the size and consistency of a McDonalds Hamburger by the thermal effects, rendering the radiation rather pointless.
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Any other sources than Fox ?
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
What if it was something that volatilized, like coolant water or some crazy sodium stuff that was breathed in? I personally think its bogus, but its fun to speculate about what it could be.
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You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions here, but I think we can rule out the possibility that the pirates got a neutron bomb dropped on them.Adrian Laguna wrote:This is only true when talking about people out in the open. Once you bring armoured vehicles into the equation, it becomes much easier to soft kill the crew with a lethal dose of radiation than it is to try to destroy or immobilize the vehicle with heat and blast effects. That is why enhanced radiation weapons came into existence, and even for unprotected troops the lethal radius of an ERW is greater than the heat and blast effects.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Exposure to even ionizing radiation requires extremely high doses at extremely close ranges; I think Stuart once said that you can certainly receive enough radiation from a nuclear event to kill you, but only at a range where your body would have already been reduced to the size and consistency of a McDonalds Hamburger by the thermal effects, rendering the radiation rather pointless.
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بيرني كان سيفوز
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ipsa scientia potestas est
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ipsa scientia potestas est
Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
Ok ran some numbers
Picked randomly start with chromium K alpha radiation which has a wavelength of 2.92 Angstroms or .292nm.
The deciding factor in a scanner ability to detect certain wavelengths is based off of the Aperture Diameter. Which is AD (m) = [.00244 x Altitude (km) x wavelength (nm)] / Resolution (meters). So at 100km which is at the low end for LEO and .292(nm) and say 1m resolution you get
AD= [.00244*100*.292]/1 = .071m
Now power requirements is 5000*AD = 356 Watts
Volume of said sensor is 7.5*AD = .5m^3
Weight of said sensor is 2100*AD = 149.1kg
So picking up Chromium K alpha radiation from low orbit is doable and with hyperspectral scanners hundreds of different wavelength are scanned at the same time, and modern scanners have adjustable apertures so they can be used to focus entire on one wavelength if need be.
Now as alpha radiation has a very low penetration value the satellite will need an active component so it can send out energy of a certain wavelength so that it can penetrate the hull the same way as satellite use ground penetrating radar to scan from minerals and other underground object. So once the emission penetrates the hull of the ship interacts with the wave length of alpha particles and returns to the satellite the resulting changes in the wavelength can be used to extrapolate what is there.
Now since we know alpha particles has low penetration its most likely not making them sick as it would have a hard time getting out of the sealed containers. So the case seems a bit moot.
Picked randomly start with chromium K alpha radiation which has a wavelength of 2.92 Angstroms or .292nm.
The deciding factor in a scanner ability to detect certain wavelengths is based off of the Aperture Diameter. Which is AD (m) = [.00244 x Altitude (km) x wavelength (nm)] / Resolution (meters). So at 100km which is at the low end for LEO and .292(nm) and say 1m resolution you get
AD= [.00244*100*.292]/1 = .071m
Now power requirements is 5000*AD = 356 Watts
Volume of said sensor is 7.5*AD = .5m^3
Weight of said sensor is 2100*AD = 149.1kg
So picking up Chromium K alpha radiation from low orbit is doable and with hyperspectral scanners hundreds of different wavelength are scanned at the same time, and modern scanners have adjustable apertures so they can be used to focus entire on one wavelength if need be.
Now as alpha radiation has a very low penetration value the satellite will need an active component so it can send out energy of a certain wavelength so that it can penetrate the hull the same way as satellite use ground penetrating radar to scan from minerals and other underground object. So once the emission penetrates the hull of the ship interacts with the wave length of alpha particles and returns to the satellite the resulting changes in the wavelength can be used to extrapolate what is there.
Now since we know alpha particles has low penetration its most likely not making them sick as it would have a hard time getting out of the sealed containers. So the case seems a bit moot.
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Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
The possibility the Iranians allowed the pirates to capture a ship carrying radioactive materials, makes me wonder about the security of radioactive materials transported on behalf of nations that are NOT secretly developing nuclear or radiological weapons, i.e., the US, UK, France, Russia, China, India, and Pakistan. As everyone already knows those nations have nukes, and therefore they can provide armed escorts for transporters of these materials instead of refusing such security measures in an attempt to hide the existence of their nuclear programs, do they take these measures to prevent a Jack Sparrow wannabe from seizing a shipload of uranium or something?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
Re: Pirates who seized Iranian Ship...dying?
This wouldn't be uranium anyway, but sure, they certainly do. If this story is actually real and not just fictional, and it is actually radiation, then it's probably waste from a criticality excursion or something they've bought from someone else. In this case the reason why it wouldn't be guarded is that they don't want to draw attention and it's not valuable enough to fly, or it's too heavy. It's unlikely it's waste because that would involve a nuclear cycle. It's unlikely it's actually nuclear fuel, since that would imply a monumental clusterfuck on many people's parts. And it's certainly not a loose nuke. If it was valuable they would have thrown a handful of armed defenders onto the boat, so if anything radiological then it's probably just radioactive trash.Sidewinder wrote:The possibility the Iranians allowed the pirates to capture a ship carrying radioactive materials, makes me wonder about the security of radioactive materials transported on behalf of nations that are NOT secretly developing nuclear or radiological weapons, i.e., the US, UK, France, Russia, China, India, and Pakistan. As everyone already knows those nations have nukes, and therefore they can provide armed escorts for transporters of these materials instead of refusing such security measures in an attempt to hide the existence of their nuclear programs, do they take these measures to prevent a Jack Sparrow wannabe from seizing a shipload of uranium or something?