Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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http://www.thestar.com/article/512969
Alberta government and Hutterite colony go to top court in battle over photo-free licences
Oct 07, 2008 04:30 AM
Comments on this story (4)
Tracey Tyler
Legal Affairs Reporter

Samuel Wurz's people arrived in Canada to the promise of religious freedom. But 90 years later, they're afraid that freedom could be destroyed in the blink of a digital camera's eye.

As members of a traditional Hutterite community in southern Alberta, they believe being photographed is a sin. But that belief is becoming harder to sustain in a world obsessed with security.

The Alberta government is heading to the Supreme Court of Canada this week as part of its heated legal battle with the Hutterian Brethren of Wilson Colony over the province's photo driver's licence scheme.

Civil libertarians say the case, which kicks off the court's fall term, will test Canada's commitment to religious tolerance and accommodation.

Alberta wants to force the colony's eligible drivers to comply with its licensing system, invoked in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which made licence photos mandatory and abolished an exemption that enabled people like Wurz to opt out of pictures for religious reasons.

"When we did come into Canada in 1918 ... the government promised ... we could live our religious life the way we feel is necessary," Wurz explained while undergoing questioning earlier in the case.

Lawyers for Alberta's attorney general freely admit that requiring colony members to be photographed as a condition of being able to drive would violate their constitutional right to freedom of religion, but argue the infringement is justified given heightened security threats and the growing problem of identity theft.

An Alberta trial judge disagreed, finding the photo requirement unconstitutional, a ruling upheld in a 2-1 decision by the Alberta Court of Appeal last year.

But the province has shown no sign of giving up.

The province now has the backing of the federal government and several other provinces, which are intervening in the case. The Ontario government is among the intervenors.

While Ontario takes no position on whether Wilson colony members should have licences without photos, the province is concerned that a test laid out by the Supreme Court for religious exemptions in 2004 could mean the transport ministry can no longer rely on its current standards for photo-free drivers' licences.

To be considered for such a licence in Ontario, an applicant must prove membership in a registered religious organization and provide "actual scriptural passages" to support their objection to being photographed. Since 1986, approximately 80 people have applied, but not a single exemption has been handed out.

In 2004, in a case involving Montreal's Orthodox Jewish community, the Supreme Court said religious beliefs do not lend themselves to objective evaluation and limited the rights of governments to inquire into whether they're sincerely held.

If that same reasoning holds true in the case of the Wilson Hutterians, the Ontario government says it could become easier for would-be criminals or even honest citizens with privacy concerns to obtain photo-free drivers' licences by asserting fictitious religious objections.

In court documents filed for today's hearing, Wurz says the mandatory photo requirement is forcing his community to choose between violating the Second Commandment against idolatry – making any "likeness of what is in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the water" – or ending their communal way of living, another tenet of their religious practices.
If you wanna drive a car, you need photo id.
And there are photos of Hutterites on Wikipedia.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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They don't want to have their picture taken, then they don't get to drive. This should be an open and shut case if it weren't for the idiotic religious objections.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Uh, they can opt not to drive.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Typical religious fucktards acting like it's persecution rather than being treated fairly like everyone else.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

On the grounds that the Hutterites could not bring delicious, delicious vegetables and bread to the farmers' market here every week if they couldn't drive, and the benefit of Hutterite food outweighs the danger of a token exception to practical road laws, I say let 'em go.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Make 'em carry a detailed written physical description of themselves, minimum 1000 words.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Hire a police sketch artist, problem solved.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:On the grounds that the Hutterites could not bring delicious, delicious vegetables and bread to the farmers' market here every week if they couldn't drive, and the benefit of Hutterite food outweighs the danger of a token exception to practical road laws, I say let 'em go.
Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Broomstick wrote: Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.
Okay, maybe they could get by, but I honestly don't see the any danger for society at large by giving an exception to those plucky little chicken-bearded Communist loonies.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
Broomstick wrote: Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.
Okay, maybe they could get by, but I honestly don't see the any danger for society at large by giving an exception to those plucky little chicken-bearded Communist loonies.
If they can get out of a license picture, why couldn't I? Then I could have a nice transferable proof of age card to lend to young people!

It cheapens the law if people are given exceptions for such trivial reasons as their imaginary friends saying this or that.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Bubble Boy wrote:Typical religious fucktards acting like it's persecution rather than being treated fairly like everyone else.
uh. They've been this way since 1918. How exactly is it their fault?

The article says "invoked in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which made licence photos mandatory and abolished an exemption that enabled people like Wurz to opt out of pictures for religious reasons."

They've been okay before with apparently no problem with the canadian government regarding things and now the government changes it AND remove the religious objection. how is it the Hutterites fault?

Also the suggestion made by Sephirius is a good one to fix the problem.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

Post by General Zod »

Saxtonite wrote:
Bubble Boy wrote:Typical religious fucktards acting like it's persecution rather than being treated fairly like everyone else.
uh. They've been this way since 1918. How exactly is it their fault?
It's their religious belief isn't it? Who else would you blame exactly? Quite frankly the fact that they're not willing to make an exception for something like this is absurd. The fucking Amish make exceptions in their beliefs, so why can't they?
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Gandalf wrote:
If they can get out of a license picture, why couldn't I? Then I could have a nice transferable proof of age card to lend to young people!
And lending it to young people would be a crime. I'm not at all confident that the Hutterites plan to use their exemption for that purpose.
It cheapens the law if people are given exceptions for such trivial reasons as their imaginary friends saying this or that.
First, the law allowed this exemption for about 80 years until after 9/11, and second, no, it doesn't cheapen the law, because in Canada the Mandate of Rule still legally lies with the Head of the Anglican Church, the Queen, who rules by Divine Right. So, if you're going to base your arguments on how this is bad because it cheapens the law, I rather suspect you may be living in some parallel universe and/or future where Republicanism has become a major force and overthrown the monarchy in Canada. Because as of today, the law still bows its head to the Sovereign thanks to her invisible friend.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote: And lending it to young people would be a crime. I'm not at all confident that the Hutterites plan to use their exemption for that purpose.
People with the ID can claim to be whomever they want as long as there's no picture on it. You seriously don't see all the potentials for fraud this can lead to? Quite frankly I'm failing to see why they should be given exemptions in light of modern security concerns. (The last I checked, those have changed over the last 80 years).
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:And lending it to young people would be a crime. I'm not at all confident that the Hutterites plan to use their exemption for that purpose.
Methinks you misunderstand my argument. Why can't I now claim that I'm a member of a church that says no to photographs?
First, the law allowed this exemption for about 80 years until after 9/11, and second, no, it doesn't cheapen the law, because in Canada the Mandate of Rule still legally lies with the Head of the Anglican Church, the Queen, who rules by Divine Right. So, if you're going to base your arguments on how this is bad because it cheapens the law, I rather suspect you may be living in some parallel universe and/or future where Republicanism has become a major force and overthrown the monarchy in Canada. Because as of today, the law still bows its head to the Sovereign thanks to her invisible friend.
I don't agree with the exemption. I'm not a fan of monarchism either, but one funny law at a time.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

General Zod wrote: People with the ID can claim to be whomever they want as long as there's no picture on it. You seriously don't see all the potentials for fraud this can lead to? Quite frankly I'm failing to see why they should be given exemptions in light of modern security concerns. (The last I checked, those have changed over the last 80 years).
Look, I've been conned by folks passing themselves off as Amish fruit-peddlers in order to steal "English"'s barley as much as anyone, but I'm wondering - since the Hutterites don't use banks, public transit, the standard Judicial system or very much of anything outside of their colonies, what would some scheming identity thief gain from one's identity?

For that matter, if a Hutterite was so concerned with material wealth wouldn't he first, you know, stop being a Hutterite?

As for modern security concerns, the First Nations get all sorts of different rules governing their lives based on who the blood of their parents, and the Jewish people get special courts because of their God, so why shouldn't the Hutterites get an equivalent exemption? In all other ways their own history and culture differ from the rest of Canada's at least as much as much as the Quebecois or the people on urban Reserves. Do you argue that modern Canadian multi-culturalism should be scrapped in all its other forms, too?
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Gandalf wrote: Methinks you misunderstand my argument. Why can't I now claim that I'm a member of a church that says no to photographs?
It would be fraud, which you could be prosecuted for. I would hope that police officers stopping a guy in a BMW in a 'Modern Life is War' tee and some Lacuna Coil on his iPod hooked via an FM Tuner to his stereo (note: I don't mean you here) who claims to be part of an old-school isolationist cult when he can't present photo-ID would be more than a little suspicious.
I don't agree with the exemption. I'm not a fan of monarchism either, but one funny law at a time.
Well, I don't care one way or the other as far as our sovereigns go, so I suppose this is just a place where our philosophies diverge. I think the dangers of an exemption to one specific group that has had the protection before isn't a big deal when said exemption is not particularly earth-shattering and is in line with Canada's whole 'Mosaic' schtick. Besides, before 9/11 I don't recall any big Hutterite ID-scams or any hoopla over it. Are they just going to start now?
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote: Look, I've been conned by folks passing themselves off as Amish fruit-peddlers in order to steal "English"'s barley as much as anyone, but I'm wondering - since the Hutterites don't use banks, public transit, the standard Judicial system or very much of anything outside of their colonies, what would some scheming identity thief gain from one's identity?
Being able to obtain credit cards, passports, social security cards, for starters. So long as someone doesn't need to have a picture on their ID, frankly they're making it very easy to enable people committing identity theft to do so.
For that matter, if a Hutterite was so concerned with material wealth wouldn't he first, you know, stop being a Hutterite?
It's not just Hutterites I'd be concerned with. Quite frankly a license is such an important document that not requiring the same security features for everyone (yes, a photo is a security feature), is grossly negligent.
As for modern security concerns, the First Nations get all sorts of different rules governing their lives based on who the blood of their parents, and the Jewish people get special courts because of their God, so why shouldn't the Hutterites get an equivalent exemption? In all other ways their own history and culture differ from the rest of Canada's at least as much as much as the Quebecois or the people on urban Reserves. Do you argue that modern Canadian multi-culturalism should be scrapped in all its other forms, too?
What makes you think I agree with religious exemptions for non-trivial laws at all? The last I checked we were only talking about Hutterites so bringing up anything else is really just a ridiculous red herring. About the only way I could conceivably agree with such a document being permitted at all is if it were only valid for use inside Hutterite communities. If they want to drive anywhere else, they can get a license with a photo like the rest of society.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Broomstick wrote:
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:On the grounds that the Hutterites could not bring delicious, delicious vegetables and bread to the farmers' market here every week if they couldn't drive, and the benefit of Hutterite food outweighs the danger of a token exception to practical road laws, I say let 'em go.
Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.
So... have the Hutterites stop driving motor vehicles and start driving horse-drawn carriages, oxcarts, or riding horses, and the problem's solved?
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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General Zod wrote: It's their religious belief isn't it?
yes.
Who else would you blame exactly?
the government who changed their policies and removed the religios exemption when they did fine the way they were for a long period of time.
Quite frankly the fact that they're not willing to make an exception for something like this is absurd. The fucking Amish make exceptions in their beliefs, so why can't they?
I'm not a Hutterite and I do not know their beliefs so I cannot answer that :?:
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Sidewinder wrote:So... have the Hutterites stop driving motor vehicles and start driving horse-drawn carriages, oxcarts, or riding horses, and the problem's solved?
Yes. Driving a car on public streets is a responsibility, not a right. You have to prove that you are worthy of this responsibility, and if your religion says you can't do some of the things necessary to provide that proof, then too fucking bad.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Saxtonite wrote: the government who changed their policies and removed the religios exemption when they did fine the way they were for a long period of time.
"It's always been that way" is not a valid argument, try again.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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The point people arguing for the exemption need to remember is that having a driver's license is not a right, it's a privelege. If they don't want to meet the conditions required to be granted the privelege of a driver's license, then they don't get to have one.
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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

General Zod wrote:
Saxtonite wrote: the government who changed their policies and removed the religios exemption when they did fine the way they were for a long period of time.
"It's always been that way" is not a valid argument, try again.
I believe the point is 'No problem has ever been caused by it and it's always been that way'. If the Hutterites never have abused this special right, why is it supposed that they'll start now? If they won't abuse it (and 80 years of troublelessness is positive evidence for that), then this exemption's incredibly tiny net gain (A few backwards anabaptist folk will be happy) will exceed its net loss (effectively nil) enough to make it worth it.

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Re: Canada's religious tolerance put to test

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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote: I believe the point is 'No problem has ever been caused by it and it's always been that way'. If the Hutterites never have abused this special right, why is it supposed that they'll start now? If they won't abuse it (and 80 years of troublelessness is positive evidence for that), then this exemption's incredibly tiny net gain (A few backwards anabaptist folk will be happy) will exceed its net loss (effectively nil) enough to make it worth it.
You have no guarantee that they won't abuse it. Quite frankly "hurr hurr tradition!!11!" is no argument, and I'm failing to see any valid reason they should be given an exemption for what is effectively a privilege.
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