T:SCC 2x04: "Allison from Palmdale"

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe she doesn't have detailed files on human anatomy?

[Thanas]

Maybe she doesn't have detailed files on human anatomy?

[Singular Intellect]

And you cannot tell me that somebody who can accurately copy barcodes for a nuclear facility is incapable of performing a crude operation that a simple paramedic could perform succesfully.

Just what crazy logic makes you think the ability to replicate a barcode has any bearing on ability to perform any type of surgery, even a supposed relatively simple one?

Do you look at an artist who can impressively replicate someone's face on paper and therefore conclude they should be able to safely extract bullets from a dying gunshot victim?

You seem to have missed where Cameron was revealed to be a robot. What skills doesn't she have that a paramedic has?

Again, what fucked up logic are you employing that says "robot=paramedic training"?

[Thanas]

Again, what fucked up logic are you employing that says "robot=paramedic training"?

Lets see, since you were apparently recruited from the short bus and failed to watch any episodes of the show:

Cameron is an infiltrator model. Her hand-to-eye coordination as well as her speed is way superior to any human. She doesn't shake, her hands cannot slip. Can we agree that she is physically far superior to any surgeon in the whole world? Then, we know from the past that she is actually quite capable in fixing gunshot wounds - see Sarah for example. Cameron treated her gunshot wounds and was so accurate with her stitches it barely left a scar. And she did operate on Sarah. I guess you missed that episode, yes? In addition, what complex procedure did Charlie do that was outside her capabilities?

[Singular Intellect]

Again, what fucked up logic are you employing that says "robot=paramedic training"?

Lets see, since you were apparently recruited from the short bus and failed to watch any episodes of the show:

Cameron is an infiltrator model. Her hand-to-eye coordination as well as her speed is way superior to any human. She doesn't shake, her hands cannot slip. Can we agree that she is physically far superior to any surgeon in the whole world?

Yeah, all fine and dandy, and has precisely jack shit to do with knowledge about surgery. And you have the audacity to imply I'm an idiot?

Then, we know from the past that she is actually quite capable in fixing gunshot wounds - see Sarah for example. Cameron treated her gunshot wounds and was so accurate with her stitches it barely left a scar. And she did operate on Sarah. I guess you missed that episode, yes?

You're right, I don't recall Sarah having multiple gun shot (or centre mass) wounds, coughing up blood and dying whereas Cameron operated on her and saved her. Which episode was this?

Or are you so fucking stupid you think a flesh wound requiring a few stitches and simply bullet extraction is equivalent to the damage and conditon Derek was in, where he was puking up blood, suffering extreme blood loss and going into shock?

In addition, what complex procedure did Charlie do that was outside her capabilities?

I have a better question: What makes you think paramedic training is so easy that anyone not trained in the field can do it?

Here's an even better idea: Why don't you describe the skills and abilities of a paramedic, which require training, and then explain why they aren't needed by anyone if they have above average steady hands and strength.

I'll hold off for the moment on the whole ambulance supplies (which I guess you stupidly think is irrelevent) and personal knowledge of Charlie which could easily exceed that of a typical paramedic if he possessed extended training and/or knowledge of saving people.

[Crazedwraith]

Cameron was clearly bullshitting about 'some of them wanting peace' considering in the next scene she comes back with a bunch of bracelets taken from the corpses of Allison's friends.

[Solauren]

It is very unlikely Cameron had detailed medical training beyond basic first aid.

Consider;

Terminators in the field would rarely need more then basic first aid. After all, they lack internal organs. They need stiched closed and wounds cleaned, that's it.

Nothing more would be required. Detailed files on human anatomy don't do you squat if you don't have the training to use it.

For example, I could go an memorize all the books in the world on heart surgery. Doesn't mean I should try to operate.

Also, that level of skill could compromise a terminator. After all, do you think that many doctors survived Judgement Day?

[Thanas]

Very well, I concede the surgeon issue.

Cameron was clearly bullshitting about 'some of them wanting peace' considering in the next scene she comes back with a bunch of bracelets taken from the corpses of Allison's friends.

We do not know that they were taken from corpses - all she said was "we found these on some of your friends". They may very well be among the prisoners. Even if they were taken from corpses, chances are that those were killed in the capture of Allison.

[Singular Intellect]

Detailed files on human anatomy don't do you squat if you don't have the training to use it.

Not exactly true; The T-800 from T2 pointed out it's 'detailed knowledge' of human anatomy when John asked if it knew what it was doing, and this was immediately noticed by Sarah Connor. She then stated "I bet...makes you a more efficient killer, right?" to which the Terminator responded "Correct."

Terminator knowledge of human anatomy is there for one purpose: increased efficiency at killing humans, that is the purpose of that knowledge. The fact is that knowledge would just have some side effects, like understanding how to rapidly cripple and disable a human if death is not the end objective. That was also demostrated in T2 when John made the Terminator 'swear to not kill anyone', with the end result not exactly what John had in mind, despite being exactly what he had ordered it to do.

The obvious end result is a Terminator would know how to perform very limited 'repair' work on a human, like stitching minor cuts and even extract non serious bullet wounds because they would understand what it takes to kill a human being, and they are programmed to perform this work on themselves. They just don't have to be as careful when repairing themselves, even if they have the dexterity to do so, which would be useful if repairing a human.

So Cameron's ability to aid Sarah with relatively minor injuries and inability to aid Derek's much more serious and life threatening situation was both realistic and consistent with previously established material.

[Crazedwraith]

Very well, I concede the surgeon issue.

Cameron was clearly bullshitting about 'some of them wanting peace' considering in the next scene she comes back with a bunch of bracelets taken from the corpses of Allison's friends.

We do not know that they were taken from corpses - all she said was "we found these on some of your friends". They may very well be among the prisoners. Even if they were taken from corpses, chances are that those were killed in the capture of Allison.

True. But what I got from the dialogue was this:

1)Cameron spews this "Robots want peace!" line.
2) Allison tells Cameron where to go to find some rebels, knowing without the bracelet she'll be recognised as a Termie and blasted
3) Cameron goes to base, is idenitified but prevails in combat retrieving the ID bracelets.
4) Cameron returns and yells at Allison before snapping her neck.

Certainly Cameron is not a robot that wants peace, It's not impossible but the only evidence for are Cameron's statements, and she lies. A lot.

[Thanas]

Very well, I concede the surgeon issue.

Cameron was clearly bullshitting about 'some of them wanting peace' considering in the next scene she comes back with a bunch of bracelets taken from the corpses of Allison's friends.

We do not know that they were taken from corpses - all she said was "we found these on some of your friends". They may very well be among the prisoners. Even if they were taken from corpses, chances are that those were killed in the capture of Allison.

True. But what I got from the dialogue was this:

1)Cameron spews this "Robots want peace!" line.
2) Allison tells Cameron where to go to find some rebels, knowing without the bracelet she'll be recognised as a Termie and blasted
3) Cameron goes to base, is idenitified but prevails in combat retrieving the ID bracelets.
4) Cameron returns and yells at Allison before snapping her neck.

No, she never went to the base. She said "You would have sent me there without it, they would have known who I was", clearly indicating she never went to the base.

Certainly Cameron is not a robot that wants peace, It's not impossible but the only evidence for are Cameron's statements, and she lies. A lot.

We do not know what she wants, so I would be very careful with statements that start with "certainly".

[Shroom Man 777]

She obtained those bracelets from other prisoners like Allison. Perhaps there were other Terminators like Cameron, doppleganging, and they had a group discussion on how to do it... and then the bracelets thing came up.

[Thanas]

She obtained those bracelets from other prisoners like Allison. Perhaps there were other Terminators like Cameron, doppleganging, and they had a group discussion on how to do it... and then the bracelets thing came up.

No evidence either way.

[Shroom Man 777]

And... well, Cameron is a liar. I always knew she was an evil bitch.

[Thanas]

And... well, Cameron is a liar. I always knew she was an evil bitch.

But you like her for it.

[Losonti Tokash]

If Skynet finds that out, it can kill Kyle at the workcamp before they escape and thus prevent John Conner's birth.

I'm thinking that Skynet doesn't have access to causality-violating information, or else it would just kill John Connor in the camps and make the whole situation a hell of a lot simpler.

[Anguirus]

^ Myself I'm wondering if there are inherent targeting limitations on the time equipment. Skynet doesn't seem to use time travel on a "tactical" scale, i.e. reversing the outcomes of battles after the fact with more information. It also doesn't seem able or willing to send Terminators or whatever way back in time to deliberately mess with humanity and whittle down the numbers or resistance even further (though I'll readily agree that the inherent risk of such a thing would render it a supreme last resort, a temporal "Doomsday Machine" if you will).

Skynet's actions make a bit more sense as the flailing of a defeated giant, as presented in T1 and the early drafts of T2, throwing in prototypes and experimental technology as a final "fuck you" to humanity. In SCC, it seems to be using time travel much more deliberately, using it to try and turn the tides of individual battles taking place 20 years after the fact...however, if it really had mastered the uses of tactical causality-violation, humanity would be fucked sideways and Skynet would be, essentially, God. Even a genius can't beat you if you send a robot back in time a few years and tell yourself to "nuke all your work camps" and obliterate 50% or more of his potential soldiers. Hell, just murder everyone who's going to be of military age in the 2020s and you'll pre-emptively deprive Connor of his men and just happen to take out Kyle Reese while doing it.

It almost makes me wonder about these alluded "rebel machines." For instance, why isn't Shirley Weaver in contact with Cromartie? Why doesn't she seem remotely interested in the Connors (note that she hired people who knew who they were, but has made no further move against them)? I wonder if a machine faction is inhibiting Skynet more than the plucky human resistance fighters are, who appear in flashbacks to be logistically and tactically in serious trouble.

Whether it's that or another thing, at some point IMO the show really should confront the reason why John Connor is (supposedly) able to beat time-traveling robots so thoroughly.

[Anguirus]

Ghetto edit: I may appear self-contradictory, but I'm really not! The reason I brought up targeting limitations is because Skynet doesn't use time travel in the most obvious manner, i.e. simply having unbeatable intelligence on how every battle occurred and using that intel to reverse their outcomes. Instead, they try and take one location or kill one man who was involved with that battle 20 years prior. So they are indeed using "tactical" time travel in the series, but in a weird way.

[Braedley]

Skynet is also trying to minimize temporal ripples, except when it comes to Connor (although in all likelihood, he'd be replaced by someone else if Skynet killed him). If Skynet were to try and throw too big a stone, the ripples could result in a drastically different future.

[Thanas]

We do not know the effects of temporal paradoxes, and we do not know the limits of Skynet's time travel abilities. For all we know, sending back individual robots is all it can do. For all we know, Skynet is also stretched very thin for resources, which is why it needs the work camps and cannot eliminate the best workers (which are unsurprisingly people who can fight).

Besides, for all the theory of how much intelligence Skynet has about battles - remember that the battles are oftentimes ambushes and surprise attacks. A hardcopy of lost battles would not likely do much good in that kind of battles - after the first successes like that, the resistance would most likely just change their strategy and the entire Skynet intelligence would be useless.

Eliminating leading resistance members seems the better way, since it removes that threat forever.

[Peptuck]

Whether it's that or another thing, at some point IMO the show really should confront the reason why John Connor is (supposedly) able to beat time-traveling robots so thoroughly.

Simple and obvious answer: John is doing the exact same thing. He's done it with the Reese brothers, he's done it with Uncle Bob, he's doing it with Cameron, he did with the engineer who built the time machine under the bank, and he did it with that resistance fighter from "Automatic for the People."

We do not know the effects of temporal paradoxes, and we do not know the limits of Skynet's time travel abilities. For all we know, sending back individual robots is all it can do. For all we know, Skynet is also stretched very thin for resources, which is why it needs the work camps and cannot eliminate the best workers (which are unsurprisingly people who can fight).

Right. I mean, look at "Dungeons & Dragons" or "Heavy Metal." In the latter, we've got Skynet stockpiling critical resources that are going to be in short supply in the future, and in the former, SkyNet's troops are shown salvaging jet engines to power its chronoporter. That's not the kind of activity you'd expect from someone rolling in resources.

[Thanas]

Right. I mean, look at "Dungeons & Dragons" or "Heavy Metal." In the latter, we've got Skynet stockpiling critical resources that are going to be in short supply in the future, and in the former, SkyNet's troops are shown salvaging jet engines to power its chronoporter. That's not the kind of activity you'd expect from someone rolling in resources.

Exactly. People have to remember that Skynet is in effect the US military-industrial complex...which got nuked by the likes of Russia, China and Europe. It is in no condition to wage a war (except for certain underground facilities) and I'd wager it would actually loose a direct war against any first world country at this point. If there were any left, that is.

[Feil]

Can't bring myself to give it a 5 because it introduces yet another logical absurdity: "Gee, I have a flashing HUD that scans people and declares their target/threat status. I must be a real girl! My name is Allison!" However, it was good aside from that. 4.

[Shroom Man 777]

When she was looking at her reflection in a tiny balloon, her HUD melted away.