Canada's religious tolerance put to test

[Darth Wong]

I believe the point is 'No problem has ever been caused by it and it's always been that way'. If the Hutterites never have abused this special right, why is it supposed that they'll start now?

Burden of proof to justify special treatment of a particular group lies on the proponent, not the opponent. Our societies have equal treatment for all such groups written into the highest law.

[Broomstick]

On the grounds that the Hutterites could not bring delicious, delicious vegetables and bread to the farmers' market here every week if they couldn't drive, and the benefit of Hutterite food outweighs the danger of a token exception to practical road laws, I say let 'em go.

Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.

So... have the Hutterites stop driving motor vehicles and start driving horse-drawn carriages, oxcarts, or riding horses, and the problem's solved?

The Amish also hire people who have licenses (complete with photos) to do the driving.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Typical religious fucktards acting like it's persecution rather than being treated fairly like everyone else.

uh. They've been this way since 1918. How exactly is it their fault?

The article says "invoked in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which made licence photos mandatory and abolished an exemption that enabled people like Wurz to opt out of pictures for religious reasons."

They've been okay before with apparently no problem with the canadian government regarding things and now the government changes it AND remove the religious objection. how is it the Hutterites fault?

Also the suggestion made by Sephirius is a good one to fix the problem.

Not wanting to have your picture taken, but still have access to motor vehicles would sound suspicious to me if it weren't for the fact that it use to be this way.

However, times have changed and frankly driving a car is a priviledge and not a right. If they want to drive they should be held to whatever standard the government deems acceptable. I personally don't feel they should be exempt from photographs. How is a peace officer suppose to verify a photo less ID? You might as well make them exempt from carrying IDs all together since without a picture it is worthless as government identification.

[Edi]

These Hutterites can go fuck themselves. They can opt not to drive or opt to drive horse-drawn carriages or oxcarts if complying with motor vehicle regulations is too onerous for them. The exact fucking same line of argument they are using could be used to justify all kinds of other shit. Such as "Our religion mandates using hard drugs such as heroin and cocaine, so the police cannot be allowed to take them away! Waaaaaahhhhh!".

The Hutterites are full of shit.

[bilateralrope]

If they can get out of a license picture, why couldn't I? Then I could have a nice transferable proof of age card to lend to young people!

And lending it to young people would be a crime. I'm not at all confident that the Hutterites plan to use their exemption for that purpose.

Or it could get stolen by a young person who then uses it as his own ID.

[Hillary]

Haven't you worked it out yet? These Hutterites are religious folk. Therefore they are incapable of doing wrong.

Let them have their special treatment - the law should only apply to the BAAAADDDD guys.

[Solauren]

My religion is against testing of any kind. Therefore, I demand my liscence without proper evaluation!
To my religion, it's a sin to let liars live. Therefore, you shouldn't be able to prosecute me for killing liars!

Anyway...

The rule of law trumpts rule of religion in this country. If you don't like it, I suggest getting a passport and leaving.

Oh wait, passports require photos as well. Guess you're screwed. Deal with it.

[lance]

Let's say they had to carry a sketch, as done by a police sketch artist, of them and a physical description. Also make the thing be 1:1 ratio if that helps. How hard would it be for someone else to use their ID then?

[General Zod]

Let's say they had to carry a sketch, as done by a police sketch artist, of them and a physical description. Also make the thing be 1:1 ratio if that helps. How hard would it be for someone else to use their ID then?

IDs already contain as detailed physical descriptions as possible; your height, weight, eye color and hair color. Quite frankly since these things can easily (well, height not so much) change a description is not at all useful without an actual picture.

[lance]

Let's say they had to carry a sketch, as done by a police sketch artist, of them and a physical description. Also make the thing be 1:1 ratio if that helps. How hard would it be for someone else to use their ID then?

IDs already contain as detailed physical descriptions as possible; your height, weight, eye color and hair color. Quite frankly since these things can easily (well, height not so much) change a description is not at all useful without an actual picture.

That is why I asked about the sketch, and made the suggestion for it to be bigger than the photo on a normal ID, in conjunction with the description.

[General Zod]

That is why I asked about the sketch, and made the suggestion for it to be bigger than the photo on a normal ID, in conjunction with the description.

I somehow doubt police sketch artists are good enough to capture all the details a regular photo would. Why go through all the trouble when they can just get the picture taken or find some other way to get by without driving? Quite frankly nobody's bothered explaining why they deserve the exemption at all so far except for some touchy feely nonsense about how they won't abuse it or that it's their tradition.

[lance]

I somehow doubt police sketch artists are good enough to capture all the details a regular photo would. Why go through all the trouble when they can just get the picture taken or find some other way to get by without driving? Quite frankly nobody's bothered explaining why they deserve the exemption at all so far except for some touchy feely nonsense about how they won't abuse it or that it's their tradition.

I figure if the sketch, or other form of artistry, was accurate enough, and those people were billed for the governments troubles then they, and others could be allowed to do so.

[ArmorPierce]

On the grounds that the Hutterites could not bring delicious, delicious vegetables and bread to the farmers' market here every week if they couldn't drive, and the benefit of Hutterite food outweighs the danger of a token exception to practical road laws, I say let 'em go.

Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.

I've seen Amish driving cars.

[General Zod]

.

I figure if the sketch, or other form of artistry, was accurate enough, and those people were billed for the governments troubles then they, and others could be allowed to do so.[/quote]

No sketch is accurate enough., quite frankly. I'm still failing to see a reason they should be given an exemption beyond "they don't like their pictures taken". The fact that there are Hutterite images around the internet seem to make this somewhat dubious anyway.

[Alyrium Denryle]

On the grounds that the Hutterites could not bring delicious, delicious vegetables and bread to the farmers' market here every week if they couldn't drive, and the benefit of Hutterite food outweighs the danger of a token exception to practical road laws, I say let 'em go.

Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.

I've seen Amish driving cars.

They were probably mennonites and not Amish proper.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

Let's say they had to carry a sketch, as done by a police sketch artist, of them and a physical description. Also make the thing be 1:1 ratio if that helps. How hard would it be for someone else to use their ID then?

Their religious prohibition against 'grave images' would apply to sketches as much as to photos.

[Broomstick]

On the grounds that the Hutterites could not bring delicious, delicious vegetables and bread to the farmers' market here every week if they couldn't drive, and the benefit of Hutterite food outweighs the danger of a token exception to practical road laws, I say let 'em go.

Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.

I've seen Amish driving cars.

Conservative Mennonites are difficult to distinguish from Amish. Also, it is entirely possible that an individual Amish person is breaking the rules (particularly if young, in the mid-teens to mid-20's). Certainly the Amish in my area do not drive cars once they are full members of the church although some 16 year olds do get their license. Such Amish do get their photo taken by the DMV and, if baptized into an Amish church (typically in their early 20's) must give up driving. The two exceptions I can think of would be a life or death emergency, or if an Amish person is employed by an outside party that requires him or her to drive as part of employment. The latter would be unusual, but it certainly could occur. Amish do use grid electricity, power tools, computers, telephones, and other such normally prohibited items if required by their employment, but normally they would not use them in their private life.

nonsense about how they won't abuse it or that it's their tradition.
I figure if the sketch, or other form of artistry, was accurate enough, and those people were billed for the governments troubles then they, and others could be allowed to do so.

The problem isn't photography, it's "graven images" which was applied to sketches and portraits long before there were photos.

Again, I'm comparing this to the Amish practices - the Amish are against photography for reasons of vanity as well as graven images. Thus, it might be acceptable to photograph a group of people in the distance, from the rear, where faces could not be distinguished. X-rays for medical purposes would certainly be allowed, as would other images for medical purposes including photographs (perhaps to track the progress of a skin condition, as part of treatment) since medical needs trump other rules they follow. Views toward photos for security purposes - which would include ID - probably vary from group to group, but any such photo would not involve someone smiling as it would be for purely utilitarian purposes. Certainly any Amish arrested for a crime would be subjected to mug shots, without question. They wouldn't like it, but such photos are for identification and record keeping and most certainly NOT for vanity.

[Sea Skimmer]

Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.

They don’t object to photos taken by other people at all as far as I can tell, and plenty of them DO have drivers licenses, cars and trucks in PA. They also now often have phones (kept in separate buildings so they aren’t tempted to use them except for emergencies) and electrical power for refrigerating milk on their own property. You can see those selling vegetables off of trucks in Philadelphia all the time. The horse and buggy is becoming more and more uncommon in Pennsylvania Dutch country because the traffic levels have gotten so high it’s just not safe.

See the Amish are very reasonable in their beliefs, what technology is acceptable and what is not is set by the local community, not some old book or a single church or anything like that, and can be changed. They mainly care about the impact technology has in their way of living, and they don’t just declare some item a ‘sin’ and leave it at that for hundreds of years. This is a large part of why something like 90+ % of Amish youth still do join the Church even though the appeal of English life has to be pretty overwhelm.

[Broomstick]

They don’t object to photos taken by other people at all as far as I can tell, and plenty of them DO have drivers licenses, cars and trucks in PA.

Well, OK, that's Pennsylvania. The Amish near me are Indiana Amish, which are a different community and as you point out the policies are set locally. Around here they really don't want their pictures taken by anyone although obviously when they're out in public they can't stop anyone from committing photography.

See the Amish are very reasonable in their beliefs, what technology is acceptable and what is not is set by the local community, not some old book or a single church or anything like that, and can be changed. They mainly care about the impact technology has in their way of living, and they don’t just declare some item a ‘sin’ and leave it at that for hundreds of years. This is a large part of why something like 90+ % of Amish youth still do join the Church even though the appeal of English life has to be pretty overwhelm.

Around here it's about 75% of their children joining their churches. It could be that the apparently more conservative Amish practices in this area are a factor.

[Darth Wong]

Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.

They don’t object to photos taken by other people at all as far as I can tell, and plenty of them DO have drivers licenses, cars and trucks in PA. They also now often have phones (kept in separate buildings so they aren’t tempted to use them except for emergencies) and electrical power for refrigerating milk on their own property. You can see those selling vegetables off of trucks in Philadelphia all the time. The horse and buggy is becoming more and more uncommon in Pennsylvania Dutch country because the traffic levels have gotten so high it’s just not safe.

See the Amish are very reasonable in their beliefs, what technology is acceptable and what is not is set by the local community, not some old book or a single church or anything like that, and can be changed. They mainly care about the impact technology has in their way of living, and they don’t just declare some item a ‘sin’ and leave it at that for hundreds of years. This is a large part of why something like 90+ % of Amish youth still do join the Church even though the appeal of English life has to be pretty overwhelm.

The liberalization of subsections of old hard-line religious communities leads to a splintering effect. In the Mennonite communities, they draw a distinction between Mennonites and Orthodox Mennonites. Regular Mennonites pretty much act like everyone else.

[Broomstick]

The structure of Amish religion also tends to promote splintering - churches tend to be small, and once they reach a certain size they'll split into separate congregations, each of which can set their own policies.

The Amish don't outright reject technology, they're just very selective in adopting it. For certain matters - particularly those concerning safety and health - they willingly adopt advanced technology. In other cases, they reject using a technology in daily life due to their own priorities. This leads to apparent contradictions, such as not putting faces on dolls or having family portraits, but being willing to be photographed for certain limited number of purposes. The increasing adoption of telephones are a case in point - these phones are typically outside the actual home (often at the touching corners of neighboring properties) to discourage casual use, but to allow easy access in case of emergency. Ordinarily the Amish would not have a cellphone, but an Amish person awaiting an organ transplant might carry one in order to be quickly contacted by surgeons when an organ is available. A disabled Amish person dependent on, say, a ventilator might have power supplied to their house with the local community's blessing in order to power that ventilator... although I'd expect the house to still be lit with candles and oil lamps.

I don't agree with everything they hold dear, and I don't think I'd want to live like them long term, but I do think their idea of thinking before adopting every innovation is something the world could use a little more of. They want technology to accomodate to their needs, not vice versa.

[Adrian Laguna]

Funny - here in the US the Amish manage to bring food to farmer's markets despite a lack of driver's licenses, cars, trucks, and photos. Not a valid excuse.

The Amish also hire people who have licenses (complete with photos) to do the driving.

They are also not above using the railroads, I've seen enough of them around Union Station to guess that they're not just sight-seeing.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Amish communities differ in what is and what isn't forbidden depending on who is in charge. I know some area Amish communities are allowed to use battery-operated power tools... sometimes. If community leaders take over and decide that they aren't allowed, then they put them in storage until the next community leaders that allow them come along.