SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[PeZook]

I'd imagine that since the MESS is preparing to drop the bomb on us with the vampirism disease, we'll be building a lot more earth-to-space radars.

And giant lasers

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that large space monitoring radars exist. We do know that Sputnik-equivalents have been launched before, so it's quite reasonable to think any major power would like to know if, say, the Mercury 2 orbital test isn't in reality a 1.5 tonne virus-bomb aimed at somebody's capital city, Japanistani inspections notwithstanding.

This could nicely explain the prevalence of ABM systems: we went with bombers in this universe, but people would still be scared of bio-tipped ballistic missiles.

[K. A. Pital]

Actually I only have some 100 ABM interceptors - there are no ICBMs.

However, OTH radars also warn against (even if tthey can't reliably track or lead missiles to kill) such craft as ALCMs, stealth bombers or fighters, and other crap that is very prevalent here.

Of course, jamming OTH radars is possible (especially if you have something powerful like an OTH radar yourself - for example, I presumed that I jammed Norsemans' Jindalee-type radar with dedicated jammer planes and then Duga-3 - returns are very weak on such long ranges, so you could conceal yourself for some time.

[Shroom Man 777]

Old Continent IADS. So far the longest-range systems shown.

Don't thank me, it was interesting. That IADS was constructed considering the history of inter-national relations.

What we currently lack would be a naval OTH-SW radar in Shroomania to cover the wole thing.

The graphic does not depict any of Shroomania's detection systems. Shroomania does have them... but I just don't know what they are.

You can take liberties and "create" those mysterious and classified already-existing Shroomanian radar facilities.

*Shroomanian Secret Service guys hands Crimson dudes the "relevant" information*


And considering that Shroomania was the Crimsons' Cold War Playmate, and is roughly on par with Byzantium... we should have a considerable to the IADS.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Stas, are any of the OTH keyed for milliband wavelength? I did plan to build one in Athens keyed for milliband, like the Jindalee in Australia. Only difference was that that one is in the range of MW.

[RogueIce]

P.S.

The real....

If you don't come up with a game post where somebody says, "Will the real Emperor Shady please stand up?" I will be a sad President.

[DarthShady]

P.S.

The real....

If you don't come up with a game post where somebody says, "Will the real Emperor Shady please stand up?" I will be a sad President.

It's Premier Shady now.

And I'll see what can be done.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hey, that's a GREAT idea! Premier Shady can have, like, body doubles to prevent assassination after Karic nearly kills him - so we can have exactly that situation!

A self-important Shroomanian shitrapper will make fun it!

And Marek the Cruel said...? Nothing, you idiot! Marek the Cruel's dead, locked up in my basement...

So will the real Premier Shady please stand up? Will the real Premier Shady please stand up?

[RogueIce]

Hey Shroom and PeZook, are you the only ones who get to know about Shep's bioweapons thing? No love for your friends in Shinra and Canissia?

[PeZook]

Hey Shroom and PeZook, are you the only ones who get to know about Shep's bioweapons thing? No love for your friends in Shinra and Canissia?

Dude, ask Shroom.I'm scheduled for an assassination attempt today

[RogueIce]

Dude, ask Shroom.I'm scheduled for an assassination attempt today

No reason you can't use the Red Fax Machine in a final, heroic attempt to warn the world of the coming bio-doom as you struggle mightily to stay alive.

If you're lucky, you'll have rousing John Williams Dramatic Scene music playing in the background.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, you could say you got the stuff through me, and I got it through Shroomania....

[PeZook]

I was just joking

Consider the following countries will receive the info:

CSR
Byzantium
Canissia
Shinra
USSR

And it can disseminate from there. It's just the places our intelligence service has most ties with.

[RogueIce]

Consider the following countries will receive the info:

CSR
Byzantium
Canissia
Shinra
USSR

And it can disseminate from there. It's just the places our intelligence service has most ties with.

I think it safe to say the rest of the MESS has been suitably informed. Especially the Old Dominion.

I'll be informing Cascadia as well, since they're on my border and all. And what the Hell, the Vineyards, too.

I don't know if they (PeZook and Shroomania) included the means by which the intel was received when I got it, but for my part when sent outside the MESS I labelled it as "credible intelligence" without stating how it was received.

[K. A. Pital]

Jindalee has a frequency common for most powerful OTHRs, IIRC. What's it's wavelength?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Jindalee has a frequency common for most powerful OTHRs, IIRC. What's it's wavelength?

Not very sure. It's supposed to be based off an experimental US system, and the wiki says it can detect stealth.

This link: http://defence-data.com/features/fpage37.htm gives some hints on the capabilities. 3000km detection range apparently.

[Beowulf]

Jindalee has a frequency common for most powerful OTHRs, IIRC. What's it's wavelength?

Survey says: 5 to 30 MHz. IOW, typical for OTH radars.

[K. A. Pital]

Of course it can detect "stealth" - or, rather, small RCS objects. The Jindalee is a typical OTH. The Duga has an even lower frequency diapasone. A 350 MWt Daryal station would be superior to Jindalee in most regards - 6000 km distance at full power - but that shouldn't be too much of a wonder, a Daryal is probably the most powerful radar in the world - even the massive Don-2NP is only 250 MWt.

FYI:
1st Generation OTH (Dnepr): 1m^2 RCS at 2000 km
2nd Generation OTH (Daryal): 0,1m^2 RCS at 6000 km
3rd Generation OTH (Volga): 0,01m^2 RCS at 5000 km.

That's why radars of the JORN, Daryal, Don and Volga stations can detect stealth objects. Raptors, B-2s and F-117s, F-35 have RCS between 0,01-0,03 m square, which is detectable by such a radar.

Another issue is tracking a stealth aircraft or guiding weapons to kill it. OTHRs cannot do that (neither can they track weapons to kill versus normal bombers or fighters, anyway) - unless you fire a salvo of nuclear ABMs, he-he.

Precision in tracking and guiding is far too great in OTHs, a small craft would be shown as 10 km wide which is mostly pointless for a weapon system unless it's a nuclear warhead.

P.S. The Don's ability to track objects in space at high altitudes is unparalleled though. It was the only radar in the world which detected 5cm metal balls in orbit - all other only managed to grasp 10 and 15 cm balls. It's precision also allows for rather efficient ABM firing. Still hard to use it against non-ballistic targets, but as a EW radar, it is very good. Especially with the 360 degrees

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Of course it can detect "stealth" - or, rather, small RCS objects. The Jindalee is a typical OTH. The Duga has an even lower frequency diapasone. A 350 MWt Daryal station would be superior to Jindalee in most regards - 6000 km distance at full power - but that shouldn't be too much of a wonder, a Daryal is probably the most powerful radar in the world - even the massive Don-2NP is only 250 MWt.

FYI:
1st Generation OTH (Dnepr): 1m^2 RCS at 2000 km
2nd Generation OTH (Daryal): 0,1m^2 RCS at 6000 km
3rd Generation OTH (Volga): 0,01m^2 RCS at 5000 km.

That's why radars of the JORN, Daryal, Don and Volga stations can detect stealth objects. Raptors, B-2s and F-117s, F-35 have RCS between 0,01-0,03 m square, which is detectable by such a radar.

Another issue is tracking a stealth aircraft or guiding weapons to kill it. OTHRs cannot do that (neither can they track weapons to kill versus normal bombers or fighters, anyway) - unless you fire a salvo of nuclear ABMs, he-he.

Is Volga one big PESA radar or something? Also, is Volga that superior to Daryal? Otherwise, there's still 2 more radars to construct as a double redundancy.

[K. A. Pital]

Also, is Volga that superior to Daryal?

Not "that superior", but the costs of constructing each radar are high, so I worked a system which realistically mixes 2nd and 3rd generation radars. They are similar in terms of power and stealth detection, much more than 1st and 2nd generation.

Volga is the next step after Daryal-UM. Slightly better resolution, but like I said, against stealth aircraft, or any aircraft except ballistic missiles OTHRs can serve ONLY as EW means - whether a 15m RCS object would be 10 or 1 km in size on your EW radar, it's equally worthless for killing it with weapons basing on the radar. You will have to eventually face them with usual 3d track-and-guide radars and kill.

Hell, the very best radar for tracking super-small orbital object has a 6 degrees in-minute angular error - that speaks volumes about what kind of weapons can be directed by such radars.

They are EW and detection mostly, and for that, a Daryal-UM and Volga are equivalent.

[Steve]

For Baerne and Karmic, under what law can you try Pyotr for crimes he's committed in Misteria? If he did something in your countries (like having his old secret service assassinate a dissident) and you can prove it, then yes, he can be held for something like that. But otherwise any crimes he committed in Misteria, I think, need to be tried in Misteria to have any real legal weight. Otherwise the entire trial is nothing but a publicity stunt, a farce. A mockery of the rule of law. And that came be somewhat dangerous.

[Sea Skimmer]

P.S. If someone still thinks there's no fucking sense in building those radars with no ICBMs, think again:

In 1991 during "Desert Storm", Mingecheaur detected all 302 ALCM launches from US bombers, surface ships and atomic submarrines. The Daryal-type radar detected 15 cases of the missile failing to come onto trajectory and 30 cases of CMs downed by Iraqi air defense"

This means Shep's horde can't swarm and launch undetected from New Sumatra, at the very least

What an ever so fantastic claim of perfect accuracy, considering the US actually launched 323 cruise missiles in the conflict and had 10 fail to transition to cruise (but four of those basically involve ALCMs falling off the launch rail, I fail to see how that could be detected at all, let alone with a 10km resolution radar, that would mean you can also track iron bombs, but I don't see this also being claimed). Anytime someone claims perfection out of a radar system its just bullshit, they just aren’t and can't be, never mind the problems of separating out cruise missiles from thousands of other aircraft and tens of thousands of other missile launches. They can certainly do all those things, but not perfectly. But then, no one should have any need of perfection from over the horizon radars anyway.

[Pollux]

Pollux, given your choice to have a Russian-ethnic state, I'd figure you might have long-standing cultural ties with the CSR and other Slavic states, though long distant due to your nation being under a dictatorship (it actually wouldn't surprise me if the dictator family were deposed nobles who fled the Crimson Revolution in the now-CSR).

Yeah, the Misterians are going to try and be very buddy-buddy with the entire SNC.

Also, I love the portrayal of the Tsar. I thought I was going to have him quietly slide into obscurity, but now I think I'll have to make him more prominent.

Well, I wonder if these bunch of Slavs are going to hate Byzantium. We are a pseudo monarchy right now.

Probably not. The people of Misteria are pretty clueless when it comes to internal affairs of other countries, after living under a crazy despot who hates the world for all these years. One of the political parties is even going to support reestablishment of the monarchy, seeing Pyotr's rule as "the monarchy betrayed."

[Steve]

I don't want to make Pyotr too nasty, though I imagine he seemed the way. The way I imagine it is that, for all his flaws, he does genuinely believe that the best thing for Misteria is the rule of his family, with his attitude being a paternalistic autocrat given power and responsibility by God to rule. The likely problems for him were inability to govern capably and a tendency to listen to sycophants in his court over real experts. IOW, people who'll say whatever they think the Tsar wants to here instead of what he may need to hear. And, of course, he has a bit of a temper and a vicious dislike of the outside world, since so much of it is hostile ideologically to the Misterian monarchy's maintainance of the Divine Right to Rule.

The Tsarevich Nikolai would be a more capable Tsar.... but perhaps a tad more ruthless. Still I imagine that like his father he believes the monarchy an institution inseperable from the Misterian national identity and society.

It's your choice on what to use out of all this, of course.

[K. A. Pital]

They can certainly do all those things, but not perfectly. But then, no one should have any need of perfection from over the horizon radars anyway.

Well, for an OTH-R an error of ~20 false detections - 302 versus 323 - is not a too great disparity. That would suffice for early warning.

One of the political parties is even going to support reestablishment of the monarchy, seeing Pyotr's rule as "the monarchy betrayed."

Yeah! Let's have Admiral Kolchak!

[Steve]

They can certainly do all those things, but not perfectly. But then, no one should have any need of perfection from over the horizon radars anyway.

Well, for an OTH-R an error of ~20 false detections - 302 versus 323 - is not a too great disparity. That would suffice for early warning.

One of the political parties is even going to support reestablishment of the monarchy, seeing Pyotr's rule as "the monarchy betrayed."

Yeah! Let's have Admiral Kolchak!

Actually, this reminds me of an ATL I was trying to think up after reading W. Bruce Lincoln's history of the Russian Civil War. It would've taken the "unborn baby" point of diversion, in which a Russian figure who was never born in our timeline comes to prominence in the Russian military, initially due to heroic and competent service against Japan in the Russo-Japanese War, then as one of Brusilov's top men in 1916. In the end he would be tapped as the leader of the Whites instead of Kolchak and would prove more competent at fighting a land campaign and dealing with sycophancy and the hangers-on that deluged the White government and pilfered key elements of the White supply organization, and would eventually win the Russian Civil War after a grueling campaign.

But like many ideas I had I never followed through on it.