SGA 5x11 "The Lost Tribe" Talkback (Spoilers)

[JME2]

Sheppard must race to save McKay and Daniel Jackson from an Ancient laboratory before Todd, who has hijacked an Earth battle cruiser, gets there first.

***

Well, here we go; the concluding installment of SGA's last mid-season two-parter.

[CaptJodan]

Maybe Daniel can offer to help them. You know, "we can find a planet you can be on in our home galaxy" or some such. Something that might help them, rather than just condemn them. Can't blame them for wanting to survive, even if they're going about it the wrong way.

[CaptJodan]

Earth ships can survive severe re-entry angle, if this episode is to believed. We have absolutely no reference as to just how habitable the planet was, or the content of air and atmosphere in relation to itself, but if it was similar to Earth's, I'd say that gives a pretty high end estimate on Earth hulls and their heat characteristics. Though, because Thor's ship burnt up in the atmosphere and this ship didn't, I wonder if this planet had a less-dense atmosphere than Earth's, possibly skewing the results. Someone with more knowledge would be better able to answer that question.

[Covenant]

Earth ships can survive severe re-entry angle, if this episode is to believed. We have absolutely no reference as to just how habitable the planet was, or the content of air and atmosphere in relation to itself, but if it was similar to Earth's, I'd say that gives a pretty high end estimate on Earth hulls and their heat characteristics. Though, because Thor's ship burnt up in the atmosphere and this ship didn't, I wonder if this planet had a less-dense atmosphere than Earth's, possibly skewing the results. Someone with more knowledge would be better able to answer that question.

I'm guessing from the explosions that the density of the atmosphere was roughly the same--we'd have different explosion characteristics if it had been a low density atmosphere. I think it probably just makes more sense to say that humans are more interested in layers and layers of armor than the Asgard were, and simply added more hull. I think the front antennae burnt off in entry, and we did see a lot of debris start pulling off of it, but it seems to have good heat-transfer characteristics.

Though I'd still be interested in seeing what someone qualified could glean from that bit of ground bombardment. It's a rare look into the behavior of weapon mechanics involving space-to-ground fire.

[Zac Naloen]

Thors reentry was uncontrolled, this was steep but not uncontrolled. Thats enough for my SOD.

[Oskuro]

So, the revelation about the "Lost Tribe" has been a bit on the "meh" side for me (Yes, I avoided all spoilers). I didn't see it coming, but I was half expecting something a bit more exciting, plus it feels like the usual "we can't come up with something new and interesting" syndrome.

Although they should really try and replicate the armor, and start a nice Space Marine thing, not that it'll improve the series, but I wouldn't mind seeing something like that.

And, by the way, anyone else got a Kaylee (from Firefly) vibe from the Traveler engineer kid? I bet Jewel Staite herself did.

[FireNexus]

I got a firefly vibe from the engine room.

Anyway, these new asgard are unlikely to be much of a serious threat. For one, they seem to be pussies. They can't fight the wraith, and they got bitch-slapped by a traveller ship.

Second, they seem kind of unlikely to be on the offensive. They're ambivalent towards us. Not openly hostile.

[Stargate Nerd]

This episode was kind of a let down after the great episode two weeks ago. Like FireNexus already said, these new Asgard are pussies, how do you lose TWO ships against a Travellers garbage barge?

Also I felt like scratching my eyes out when the chief engineer turned out to be a teenager, complete with the "been working on these since she was a child" cliche. I don't even want to address the mess of a engine room itself.

3/5

[CaptJodan]

Thors reentry was uncontrolled, this was steep but not uncontrolled. Thats enough for my SOD.

This was an incredibly fast reentry (I have no math skills, and I don't put Orbiter as the end-all, be all of space physics, but if you try putting a ship with reentry monitoring capability through what the Daedalus did, the temperature would be extremely high).

We know that Asgard ships were made of neutronium, while human ships are made of I think Trinium. Has there ever been a statement made suggesting that trinium is more or less effective than neutronium?

Though I'd still be interested in seeing what someone qualified could glean from that bit of ground bombardment. It's a rare look into the behavior of weapon mechanics involving space-to-ground fire.

Standard Stargate fare...unimpressive. One my venture that the atmosphere weakened the pulse on the way down, or that Shepard was using low powered bursts, though why he would do this I don't know. Ultimately, it didn't look like very deep penetration into the crust, and not much spread outward either. Pretty pithy.

And I agree with those who suggest that the episode was ultimately something of a letdown. These Assgard are a poor shadow of the original Asgard (save in personal combat). I liked how they had a more or less decent reason for what they were doing, but Daniel had a perfect opportunity to offer Earth's aid in helping to relocate the Asgard to a safer galaxy and a new homeworld. There was no reason he couldn't have at least offered it, and it might have helped. They were looking as if they were going to be a major threat, but got neutered at the end when McKay says they can no longer pass through Atlantis' shield, and 3 ships couldn't defeat a traveler's ship. At least I won't have to regret Atlantis' passing like I feared last week.

[CaptJodan]

Edit: Destroyed 1 ship, survived attacks from 2 others.

[LadyTevar]

I did like the Space-battle. The Traveler ship and the Asgard ship circling each other firing all guns was just squeee.

[CaptJodan]

Edit: Destroyed 1 ship, survived attacks from 2 others.

Ack, I keep fucking this up. They destroyed 2 of the three ships. Jesus, did I even watch this episode?

[avatarxprime]

I have to admit that was a major letdown for me. A Traveller hunk of junk taking down 2 Asgard ships, I mean even if they are 10,000 years behind the times of the Asgard we know their ships should still be tough and their weapons essentially one-hit kills to most things. My only idea is that when the Asgard leader said they lost their intergalactic ships in their confrontation with the Wraith he meant they lost anything that can actually fight worth a darn and these are like the Asgard equivalent of a Puddlejumper or F-302 or something.

[Bladed_Crescent]

That was my assumption from the first episode, that the Asgard ships were some form of transport or scout, not a true warship. And the Travelers, despite having spit-and-bailing-wire engineering, seem to have tough ships - they only lost one vessel against the Asuran fleet, and they live in a galaxy full of Wraith. If their vessels were just rustbuckets one hard look away from breaking apart, they wouldn't have lasted too long.

That being said, aside from the two ships orbiting and firing into one another, it was a bit of a letdown as a battle. Hopefully before the end of the season we'll get to see some Pesgard warships, something to really challenge the Daedalus and Apollo.

[NecronLord]

We know that Asgard ships were made of neutronium, while human ships are made of I think Trinium. Has there ever been a statement made suggesting that trinium is more or less effective than neutronium?

Err. As far as we know, the entire asgard civilization built one structure out of neutronium. And that was a meeting hall or something to that effect on their homeworld. The O'Neill's hull was made of 'an alloy of trinium, carbon, and naquadah.' And it was 'very old' for all we know, they lost the knowledge of how to build it, or it was built by the Ancients or some other culture.

[NecronLord]

Having seen it, I get the impression that these Asgard haven't really developed at all since the war, except biologically, and that they must be very few in number. Presumably less numbers than Ida asgard = less progress, and what progress they have made has probably been toward solving thier genetic degredation and adapting to their harsh enviroment. These ships are probably close on ten thousand years out of date, compared to the newest Asgard shiny.

As for the comparisons: Thor's ship only broke up in the last seconds of its descent, and it descended belly first. The Dae didn't get that far, and it is presumably better to travel bow first in such situations. I was really expecting (and hoping) for the Daedalus to be blown up here.

Worst bit to me was them getting into the armour. Not least because I was hoping for an amusing 'if this were a movie we'd be able to wear this stuff' quip.


Now, most of it was alright, but I felt the ending was a letdown. Here's how I'd have had it go:

I would have liked it more if the Asgard had crippled the Travellers' ship, (temporarily at least) and left it floating (no reason for unnecessary violence) then bugged out as a wraith-controlled Daedalus appeared, detecting wraith on it. The transporter control had been left encrypted (Todd's ship has a jammer, so all it can be used for is escape, and he really doesn't care that much if they get away), Woolsey et al had beamed Jackson and McKay up, and then beamed everyone down to the surface, well away from the impact. Todd smirks flies off. And eventually they all go home in a banged up Traveller's ship. Cue Todd gloating at Wraith technicians beginning to decipher the crystals he yanked from the Asgard core.

Of course, I'd rather Daniel have persuaded the Asgard to turn it off. Even better if they didn't know the side effect... Daniel could have persuaded them to turn it off temporarily, and explained Ba'al's Avenger 2.1 virus; 'let us upload this into the gate network, then we can use it, wipe out the Wraith and then correct the problem.' And of course, offering to help move them to the Milky Way (or better, Ida) would have been good as well. It would have been better if they'd been more reasonable about it. He and McKay are taken with the Asgard when they leave (and later returned to Atlantis).

Of course, if Todd's plan worked as above, he'd have destroyed the Aterro device, and by the time a new one could be made, the Wraith would be busily implementing asgard technology, and it'd be obsolete without also depriving everyone we know of but the Travellers of FTL. All that would really work the Wraith up to being an intergalactic threat by the end of the series...

[Sir Sirius]

I do wonder if the blown up gates and the destruction wrought by them will be expanded upon in the future. I always got the impression that many of the human settlements in Pegasus use the gates quite regularly. At least Teela and Ronan visited quite a few worlds even before hooking up with the SGC bunch. I don't know how long the device was active, but just half a dozen hours could have resulted in a pretty horrific death toll.

[Braedley]

I agree with most of the sentiments posted here. The space battle was okay, but the episode was lackluster.

Of course, I'd rather Daniel have persuaded them to turn it off, or their reasons been elaborated on. Even better if they didn't know the side effect... Daniel could have persuaded them to turn it off temporarily, and explained Ba'al's Avenger 2.1 virus; 'let us upload this into the gate network, then we can use it, wipe out the Wraith and then correct the problem.' And of course, offering to help move them to the Milky Way (or better, Ida) would have been good as well. It would have been better if they'd been more reasonable about it.

Who's to say that Avenger 2.1 would work? We already know that with the exception of 8 chevron addresses, Pegasus gates can't dial Milky Way gates and vice versa (and even then, only Atlantis can dial Milky Way). That's why midway station was necessary. (As a side note, how they plan on sending Daniel back without the galactic bridge operational is beyond me.) We also know that Pegasus DHDs use the newer slot style crystals (with the possible exception of the master control crystal, I don't think we ever see it in the Pegasus DHDs), while the Milky Way DHDs use the older rod crystals. For all we know it could be an entirely different piece of software running on the DHDs. I'm not saying that it couldn't work, but we just don't know.

[NecronLord]

Who's to say that Avenger 2.1 would work? We already know that with the exception of 8 chevron addresses, Pegasus gates can't dial Milky Way gates and vice versa (and even then, only Atlantis can dial Milky Way).

Err.. What? Only Atlantis had the given crystal to go there (though for all we know, The Tower and Asuras had them too) but that's a programming issue; an ordinary Milky Way DHD can't dial eight either.

Of course, the Asgard core is presumably able to produce those little (one shot?) eight-chevron dialling stones that Thor used in Small Victories to go home.

That's why midway station was necessary.

Err. Right. I'm not sure how you concluded this. Just because they didn't want to make the system dial right through (which may or may not be possible) it was never said to be because of some kind of incompatability. Presumably they'd just like some control of who goes through the thing...

(As a side note, how they plan on sending Daniel back without the galactic bridge operational is beyond me.) We also know that Pegasus DHDs use the newer slot style crystals (with the possible exception of the master control crystal, I don't think we ever see it in the Pegasus DHDs), while the Milky Way DHDs use the older rod crystals. For all we know it could be an entirely different piece of software running on the DHDs. I'm not saying that it couldn't work, but we just don't know.

Aside from it being a suggestion the character could have made, rather than something that could immediately bear fruit, it seems a little odd to suggest there's any reason to believe the same thing couldn't be done in Pegasus, even if you had to re-write it. Felger wrote the original version on his own, in a few days. A joint Asgard-Tau'ri effort on a large scale would surely be quite able to update it, unless it's actually impossible.


This isn't, mind you, saying that's what Jackson should have come up with in-character. Merely how I'd have written it.

[Oskuro]

One thing that has suprised me, is that McKay and Daniel actually look cool in the armor without the helmets, good costume design, for once.

I personally have a hard time picturing the Asgard as the bad guys, and also I find it hard to see them as a credible threat when they've been hiding for millenia on a toxic planet for fear of extermination at the hands of the Wraith. Hardly the new über-villians we were led to belive they'd be, unless they pull some comvenient Deus Ex Machina out of their cloned asses next time, of course.

Also, I'll take this chance to say that I'll never forgive the writers of Atlantis for getting rid of Hermiot, his interactions with Novak or McKay were pure gold, and I would have loved to have the guy around to comment on this.

[CaptJodan]

Also, I'll take this chance to say that I'll never forgive the writers of Atlantis for getting rid of Hermiot, his interactions with Novak or McKay were pure gold, and I would have loved to have the guy around to comment on this.

As would I. Quite frankly I can't bring myself to forgive them to bring back the Asgard only to make them more pathetic. I imagined that maybe there were a lot of Asgard fans out there who wanted to see them again, feeling that the final episode of SG-1, and the dealing with the Asgard, sucked, and felt it'd be a nice treat to bring them back. If that was their intent, I know I wasn't too happy with how they played it.

I wasn't really terribly unhappy with the Asgard's justification. It was a matter of survival to them, and if they truly felt that was their only option, then so be it. But to not even negotiate with them, to try and work towards some kind of solution was retarded. The only reason I can see why Daniel didn't even attempt it was because when he saw they were Loki followers, he felt they were pretty much beyond reason, and shipping them to another galaxy would only mean they would start experimenting with that human population. But Daniel's worked with far less in common in the past, and managed to make it work. It was a huge missed opportunity.

[Revy]

Good episode, definitely didn't see that coming. And hey, they finally used my suggestion! Back when Atlantis got zapped by that Asuran sat/gate weapon I said they should have had the Apollo extend it's hyperspace field over the weapon in order to force it through hyperspace and out of the way, to at least buy the city some time (like when SG1 did to the Asteroid). Here they at least used it to save the Daedalus. And boy, don't those 304's rack up the repair bills?

What was up with Ronin? Does he have a thing for Keller or not? He told Rodney he did but I thought he was messing with him, yet he definitely didn't want her to turn herself in (I bet he would have said yes if McKay was there instead) and seems to want to spend a lot of time with her. He said he didn't to her face, but then seemed all uncomfortable. I just don't get him at all.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

What was up with Ronin? Does he have a thing for Keller or not? He told Rodney he did but I thought he was messing with him, yet he definitely didn't want her to turn herself in (I bet he would have said yes if McKay was there instead) and seems to want to spend a lot of time with her. He said he didn't to her face, but then seemed all uncomfortable. I just don't get him at all.

I've only seen three episodes in the past three seasons of this show, so I might be wrong, but especially if there were hints of interest there before this episode, I would find it at least likely that Ronan was just trying to brush off the rejection. Then again, he could have just changed his mind about lunch because it'd now be awkward, but from what I've gathered it seems in character for him to sidestep this whole issue now that it won't work.

[JME2]

Well, I just finished watching it. Good, but not the best; the Rogue Asgard were not as well handled as I would have liked. Still, decent space-battle, McKay/Daniel banter, and the mention of Loki.

3.5/5

[Johonebesus]

Who's to say that Avenger 2.1 would work? We already know that with the exception of 8 chevron addresses, Pegasus gates can't dial Milky Way gates and vice versa (and even then, only Atlantis can dial Milky Way). That's why midway station was necessary. (As a side note, how they plan on sending Daniel back without the galactic bridge operational is beyond me.) We also know that Pegasus DHDs use the newer slot style crystals (with the possible exception of the master control crystal, I don't think we ever see it in the Pegasus DHDs), while the Milky Way DHDs use the older rod crystals. For all we know it could be an entirely different piece of software running on the DHDs. I'm not saying that it couldn't work, but we just don't know.

Where has it ever been stated that the DHD's cannot dial eight chevrons or connect to the Pegasus network? The stargate doesn't establish a wormhole until the POO is encoded and/or the "on switch" in the center of the DHD is activated. There's no reason why one couldn't enter seven or even eight coordinates before activating the POO. The SGC's dialing computer needed a software update to dial eight chevrons because the program was specifically written to dial seven, but that was the earthlings' own program, not the Ancient original. The Pegasus stargates were programmed to refuse to eight coordinates without a special control crystal, but this was because of the unique threat. The heroes were surprised by the limitation when they first discovered it. I don't see why Pegasus gates couldn't dial any planet in the Milky Way as long as they had the control crystal. The heroes have just had no reason to want to go to any planet other than Earth.

The only limitation is energy. A normal DHD's "battery" isn't big enough to power an intergalactic wormhole. Presumably any Milky Way stargate could dial Pegasus or Ida if it were hooked up to a ZPM or other sufficient source of energy.

They do have a ZPM in Atlantis, though it is almost depleted. It is enough to power the shield and connect to Earth as long as neither is done too often. They conceived of the gate bridge to save on the ZPM and to allow Earth to connect to Atlantis. They have evidently decided it is too great a risk to reconstruct the midway station.


I was annoyed that the Ancients didn't shut down the Pegasus network long enough to pick off the disabled Wraith ships. Since they created the things, surely it would have been simple for them to write a patch similar to but neater and more functional than the Avenger virus that would have disabled the stargates. It might have been a great inconvenience, but if the other option was abandoning the galaxy and all their daughter races to the Wraith, it seems like it would have been worth it. They probably could have designed it so that it could be switched on and off, so in emergencies they could deactivate the hyperspace suppressor long enough to use the gates. If nothing else, it would have given them time to devise a new tactic, or figure out how to solve the side effect.

I wish the writers would come up with some explanation as to why the Atlanteans were so stupid. I still like my idea that they weren't the original Ancients, but descended Ancients who were allowed to fight the Wraith but given more limited H. sapiens bodies.