Galactic Empire vs All the orks in the 40K galaxy

[The Dark]

It's also unclear how effective it would actually be (it prevented the spores from growing properly, but it's unclear whether the Ork could heal from the wound [since it was dead],

The idea that they could heal from it is postulating an ability they've never shown in any way shape or form.

The idea that it's a magical anti-Ork acid that will melt living Orks is also postulating something not conclusively proven. The only things definitively proven by the experiment are:
a) it dissolves dead Ork flesh
b) it is teratogenic with regards to undeveloped Ork spores

Given the Ork tendency to have unusual abilities that don't seem entirely physical in nature (such as red ones going faster, the Madboyz mental peculiarities, the ability to have their heads transplanted onto other bodies), I'm leery of accepting any miracle weapon that appears once in fluff and never occurs again - it smacks too much of Voyager's miracle-cure-of-the-week-that-nobody-remembers.

[NecronLord]

The idea that they could heal from it is postulating an ability they've never shown in any way shape or form.

The idea that it's a magical anti-Ork acid that will melt living Orks is also postulating something not conclusively proven. The only things definitively proven by the experiment are:
a) it dissolves dead Ork flesh
b) it is teratogenic with regards to undeveloped Ork spores

Given the Ork tendency to have unusual abilities that don't seem entirely physical in nature (such as red ones going faster, the Madboyz mental peculiarities, the ability to have their heads transplanted onto other bodies),

Actually, the working head transplant is entirely physical. And this is like speculating that they should have some sort of immunity to graviton guns - it's POSSIBLE, but there's been no evidence to suggest that there's any such immunity, so the default assumption is there is none. If you want to insist that what works on samples of their flesh in lab conditions won't work in the field, pony up evidence, not handwaving and Voyager comparisons.

I'm leery of accepting any miracle weapon that appears once in fluff and never occurs again - it smacks too much of Voyager's miracle-cure-of-the-week-that-nobody-remembers.

Horse shit and bullcrap Bubba. Why is every fucking thing someone wants to denigrate on this forum compared to Voyager? Given that there's a perfectly valid reason this shouldn't become widespread in the 40K setting... yeah. Quite.

[The Dark]

The idea that they could heal from it is postulating an ability they've never shown in any way shape or form.

The idea that it's a magical anti-Ork acid that will melt living Orks is also postulating something not conclusively proven. The only things definitively proven by the experiment are:
a) it dissolves dead Ork flesh
b) it is teratogenic with regards to undeveloped Ork spores

Given the Ork tendency to have unusual abilities that don't seem entirely physical in nature (such as red ones going faster, the Madboyz mental peculiarities, the ability to have their heads transplanted onto other bodies),

Actually, the working head transplant is entirely physical. And this is like speculating that they should have some sort of immunity to graviton guns - it's POSSIBLE, but there's been no evidence to suggest that there's any such immunity, so the default assumption is there is none. If you want to insist that what works on samples of their flesh in lab conditions won't work in the field, pony up evidence, not handwaving and Voyager comparisons.

I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully decline your request to prove a negative, since the rules of logic dislike being defied. However, weighing the evidence strongly suggests the adept is lying:
Observations:
1. The herbicide used is named as Dichlorophenoxy acetic acid.
2. The herbicide is used on Catachan to clear the jungle.
3. The herbicide is used to clean mould off the walls.
4. The herbicide acts as a molecular acid on Orkish physiology by burning the "algal helix" with the use of "the tiniest amount."
5. The herbicide acts as a teratogen on Ork spores
Data:
1. The only known chemical by that name is 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (C8H6Cl2O3)
2. 2,4-D is used for clearing broadleaf plants, which conforms with the Catachan use. It works by interfering with plant metabolism.
3. Based on Sherry's Effects of 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid on fungal propagules in freshwater ponds, 2,4-D does not have a significant primary effect on moulds. Elad's Botrytis: Biology, Pathology, and Control found increased mould growth in greenhouses when 2,4-D was used.
4. According to Kobraei and White's Effects of 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid on Kentucky algae : Simultaneous laboratory and field toxicity testings, amounts of 2,4-D of 2 mg/L or less (the standard concentrate) stimulate the growth of algae. Doses of 100 to 1000 mg/L (50 to 500 times the normal concentration) inhibit growth, but by restricting photosynthesis and respiration, not by acting as an acid. By comparison, the TCLo to humans if inhaled is 0.1 mg/L
5. 2,4-D is teratogenic to rats and possibly to humans; it would not be an excessive stretch to presume it is a teratogen to the partially pseudo-mammalian Ork physiology.

In short, the characteristics of what is being do not match with 2,4-D. Its stated reason for being at the facility is nonsense, and its behavior does not match its known real-world characteristics. Either physical laws are different in the 40k universe, or the adept is mistaken about what he used.

I'm leery of accepting any miracle weapon that appears once in fluff and never occurs again - it smacks too much of Voyager's miracle-cure-of-the-week-that-nobody-remembers.

Horse shit and bullcrap Bubba. Why is every fucking thing someone wants to denigrate on this forum compared to Voyager? Given that there's a perfectly valid reason this shouldn't become widespread in the 40K setting... yeah. Quite.

You're right, this wasn't the best analogy. Given the ubiqitousness of 2,4-D in agriculture, it would be more similar to Signs. Given that 2,4-D is the most common herbicide on Earth (used on wheat and small grains, sorghum, corn, rice, sugar cane, low-till soybeans, rangeland, and pasture), if this was the chemical in use and it has the effects stated, Orkish invasions of Agri Worlds should end quickly with them melting. Since this hasn't been recorded, the evidence suggests what was used is not 2,4-D

[NecronLord]

I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully decline your request to prove a negative,

You're the one expecting me to disprove the claim that a character is lying. You may as well point out that with the corruption of language in 40K, it could be something entirely different, brand named after an ancient terran herbicide, and a 40K Watt might be equal to seven point six nine RL joules per second. All of these are essentially similar propositions, in that they play on the unknowns of the setting to alter the results of analysing the source material.

since the rules of logic dislike being defied. However, weighing the evidence strongly suggests the adept is lying:
Observations:
[...]
5. 2,4-D is teratogenic to rats and possibly to humans; it would not be an excessive stretch to presume it is a teratogen to the partially pseudo-mammalian Ork physiology.

So the entirely alien and comprehensively magical ork biology is especially affected by this, as well as finding it toxic in some poorly explained way. Very good carry on.

In short, the characteristics of what is being do not match with 2,4-D. Its stated reason for being at the facility is nonsense,

Ignoring for a moment that the facility was in a broadleaf forest of some kind (if you must postulate a lie or mistake on the part of a character, go for a small one - with him having a verbal slip and saying 'mould' instead of 'creepers' 'vines' or anything else on the walls), this rather depends on what the "moulds" on that particular planet are sensative to.

and its behavior does not match its known real-world characteristics. Either physical laws are different in the 40k universe,

Which they are demonstrated to be... Both in the form of various funk-tastic alternate universes interacting which we've never seen in reality, and in the plethora of physical laws which must exist in the 40K universe of which we have no knowledge...

Some very strange things happen with alien biology in 40k, directly influenced by the interaction of those dimensions. Ork spore cells multiply faster when they're put near other ork cells (which alone, makes them something completely and bafflingly different from a true fungus), even when there's no interaction between them. Eldar cells react to being observed by a sapient being. At least some of the Old Ones' creations clearly interact with the warp on a cellular level.

or the adept is mistaken about what he used.

You're right, this wasn't the best analogy. Given the ubiqitousness of 2,4-D in agriculture,

Twenty thousand year obsolete agriculture, based around entirely alien staple foodsuffs from the Imperium's (observe the ubiquity of 'Grox' and 'Ploin' (of course, it's rather remarkable they can eat anything alien, but there's some material about that in Dark Heresy) in the 40K diet compared with mention of modern foodstuffs, the main diet appears to be alien species which are presumably raised in an enviroments with plants developed from entirely different origins to Earth ones)

it would be more similar to Signs. Given that 2,4-D is the most common herbicide on Earth (used on wheat and small grains, sorghum, corn, rice, sugar cane, low-till soybeans, rangeland, and pasture), if this was the chemical in use

Who says it is in use on agri worlds? Oh yes. You. It is notable for being used on Catachan, one world, where they probably have a particularly strong interest in herbicides; Darvus does not describe it as 'the stuff they use on agri-worlds.'

Just because it's widely used on modern Earth, does not mean it is going to be well known in 40K. If that were the case, then goddam low profile tanks would be everywhere.

and it has the effects stated, Orkish invasions of Agri Worlds should end quickly with them melting. Since this hasn't been recorded, the evidence suggests what was used is not 2,4-D

[Connor MacLeod]

Xenology is hardly a source I would call unquestioningly reliable, especially given the in-universe presentation and the ending. There's nothing "exceptional" about the material or presentation of Xenology to suggest that anything in there is somehow unique or bizarre, nor is the AdMech guy in the book particularily remarkable in any way. And there's also the not-so-minor fact that the ignorance excuse can only be stretched so far: we know that the AdMech has taken steps to research Anti-ork weaponry before (the second ARmageddon novel). They've also capable of tailoring weapons to specific races (or traits like HAIR colour for crying out loud) or the efforts they've put into researching the Tyranids (So the Tyranids are researchable, but not the Orks?) Plus, the "ignorance" excuse only stretches so far back in the 40K timeframe for humanity, while we know the ORks have been around for far longer than the Imperium itself has existed.

Edit: Hell, the Ork specimen in Xenology, if we are to believe it, wasn't exactly in the best of shape (due to isolation from other Orks, its captivity, lack of exercise/diet, etc.) (The term "diseased" was mentioned.)

[NecronLord]

Err. I don't think that anyone here is saying the Adeptus Mechanicus lacks bio-weapons it can use on orks. That this particular one isn't used is hardly that remarkable; that hardly means they don't have a multitude of other ways of dealing with the problem.

[Connor MacLeod]

But every time I hear about this thing from Xenology, its presented as if its some sortt of miracle "ork busting" weapon, when I can't really see how hte fuck it could be. I mean, they have to use "hollow points" to deliver the thing? Seriously, how many bullets would you have to pump in an ork for this thing to actually be that nasty and prevent an Ork from just regenerating the effects (or just around it.)

Edit: Not that this really addresses the issue that Xenology is not somehow some "miracle" research programme, at least not by the manner it was presented. Unless this was some super-genius admech guy and I just missed out on it.

[NecronLord]

But every time I hear about this thing from Xenology, its presented as if its some sortt of miracle "ork busting" weapon, when I can't really see how hte fuck it could be. I mean, they have to use "hollow points" to deliver the thing? Seriously, how many bullets would you have to pump in an ork for this thing to actually be that nasty and prevent an Ork from just regenerating the effects (or just around it.)

It's not a miracle weapon. It's a potentially useful tool that could prevent the next generation cropping up, or at least being as effective. As for hollowpoints. Unfortunately, autoguns being everywhere are a fact of 40K. They're supposedly much more common than lasguns. What's more, according to the Armageddon ork hunters background, they find that autoguns work better than lasguns on orks - orks can hear their enemy's dakka, and are intimidated by it. Autoguns and bolt guns are the well informed unit's weapons of choice for fighting orks already. Widespread production of such bullets would enhance the abilities of milita and other units already using autoguns to combat orks.

Edit: Not that this really addresses the issue that Xenology is not somehow some "miracle" research programme, at least not by the manner it was presented. Unless this was some super-genius admech guy and I just missed out on it.

He actually does describe his discovery as 'a miracle' (which would imply that the stuff isn't terribly widespread in M41) you know. But one would assume he is notably able, given that the necrons seem honestly interested in using him to conduct experiments, when they themselves are already master vivisectionists (see the BFG rules, with prisoners of the necrons having had various glands removed surgically for some mysterious reason).

[Todeswind]

Good grief, if we're relying upon imperial citizens' interpretations of what are miracles then we're going to have an ass of a time figuring out what is actually miraculous and what is some self mutilated jackass from mars chanting and dancing while he waits for MSDOS to load.

Forgemaster Tranth has activated the coffee machine by praising the Omassiah and danced the appeasment dance to the photocopier.

It's a miracle!

Let's lobotomize some hippies and put some stabby things on them, then point them at people we don't like!

Praise to the Emperor!