SGA 5x11 "The Lost Tribe" Talkback (Spoilers)

[NecronLord]

I was annoyed that the Ancients didn't shut down the Pegasus network long enough to pick off the disabled Wraith ships. Since they created the things, surely it would have been simple for them to write a patch similar to but neater and more functional than the Avenger virus that would have disabled the stargates. It might have been a great inconvenience, but if the other option was abandoning the galaxy and all their daughter races to the Wraith, it seems like it would have been worth it. They probably could have designed it so that it could be switched on and off, so in emergencies they could deactivate the hyperspace suppressor long enough to use the gates. If nothing else, it would have given them time to devise a new tactic, or figure out how to solve the side effect.

Well, Janus did it in secret. Presumably getting official support for it would be difficult. Especially as it would involve him having to admit that he just killed thousands or millions in an unsanctioned test.

[Crazedwraith]

Where has it ever been stated that the DHD's cannot dial eight chevrons or connect to the Pegasus network?

"Home" SG:A Season 1 To dial eight chevrons they needed to cannibalise Atlantis' DHD for a specific module to allow it.

[Braedley]

Who's to say that Avenger 2.1 would work? We already know that with the exception of 8 chevron addresses, Pegasus gates can't dial Milky Way gates and vice versa (and even then, only Atlantis can dial Milky Way). That's why midway station was necessary. (As a side note, how they plan on sending Daniel back without the galactic bridge operational is beyond me.) We also know that Pegasus DHDs use the newer slot style crystals (with the possible exception of the master control crystal, I don't think we ever see it in the Pegasus DHDs), while the Milky Way DHDs use the older rod crystals. For all we know it could be an entirely different piece of software running on the DHDs. I'm not saying that it couldn't work, but we just don't know.

Where has it ever been stated that the DHD's cannot dial eight chevrons or connect to the Pegasus network? The stargate doesn't establish a wormhole until the POO is encoded and/or the "on switch" in the center of the DHD is activated. There's no reason why one couldn't enter seven or even eight coordinates before activating the POO. The SGC's dialing computer needed a software update to dial eight chevrons because the program was specifically written to dial seven, but that was the earthlings' own program, not the Ancient original. The Pegasus stargates were programmed to refuse to eight coordinates without a special control crystal, but this was because of the unique threat. The heroes were surprised by the limitation when they first discovered it. I don't see why Pegasus gates couldn't dial any planet in the Milky Way as long as they had the control crystal. The heroes have just had no reason to want to go to any planet other than Earth.

The only limitation is energy. A normal DHD's "battery" isn't big enough to power an intergalactic wormhole. Presumably any Milky Way stargate could dial Pegasus or Ida if it were hooked up to a ZPM or other sufficient source of energy.

As Crazedwraith said, the only gate in Pegasus that can dial the Milky Way (and possibly any other 8 chevron address) is Atlantis. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of programming. Also, it's fairly reasonable to assume that in order to dial a gate in another network, you need an 8th chevron (which is why midway station is necessary), and in order to dial an 8th chevron, you need massive amounts of energy (a failsafe), regardless of the distance. Granted, some of these statements are assumptions, but they're reasonable based on what we've seen.

I was annoyed that the Ancients didn't shut down the Pegasus network long enough to pick off the disabled Wraith ships. Since they created the things, surely it would have been simple for them to write a patch similar to but neater and more functional than the Avenger virus that would have disabled the stargates. It might have been a great inconvenience, but if the other option was abandoning the galaxy and all their daughter races to the Wraith, it seems like it would have been worth it. They probably could have designed it so that it could be switched on and off, so in emergencies they could deactivate the hyperspace suppressor long enough to use the gates. If nothing else, it would have given them time to devise a new tactic, or figure out how to solve the side effect.

As I said before, there's probably a very good reason why there's no gate on Janus' lab world. It probably blew up when he dialed to go back to Atlantis. Either that or there never was a gate on that world, and Janus found out another way. In any case, it would be at least a few days before he'd be able to go from the start of the plan to the end (ie the time it'd take from shutting down the gate network to activating the device), and he'd need the support of the rest of the Ancients. He had a secret lab for a reason.

I wish the writers would come up with some explanation as to why the Atlanteans were so stupid. I still like my idea that they weren't the original Ancients, but descended Ancients who were allowed to fight the Wraith but given more limited H. sapiens bodies.

I'm just going to pretend I didn't read that. I will say that I don't think they were stupid, but lacked creativity.

[Meest]

Had some hopes it would turn around the last season then turned out to be average mid season ender. So many little things annoyed me, weapon's "irrepairably" damaged, the suits adjusting to whatever wearer, the Travellers' losing their ancient ship but still have these junkers that own gimp Asgard, the engineer as people pointed out I got a bad Star Wars vibe instead of Firefly (Jewel's character even said I got a bad feeling about this). Seemed really fast with the problem--->10sec later solutions, usually I can handle 1-2 an episode but this one kept tacking them on, then to top it off next episode seems like back to fillers. Ah well 2/5 because it still had potential.

[Johonebesus]

Where has it ever been stated that the DHD's cannot dial eight chevrons or connect to the Pegasus network?

"Home" SG:A Season 1 To dial eight chevrons they needed to cannibalise Atlantis' DHD for a specific module to allow it.

Read beyond the first sentence of my post.

Who's to say that Avenger 2.1 would work? We already know that with the exception of 8 chevron addresses, Pegasus gates can't dial Milky Way gates and vice versa (and even then, only Atlantis can dial Milky Way). That's why midway station was necessary. (As a side note, how they plan on sending Daniel back without the galactic bridge operational is beyond me.) We also know that Pegasus DHDs use the newer slot style crystals (with the possible exception of the master control crystal, I don't think we ever see it in the Pegasus DHDs), while the Milky Way DHDs use the older rod crystals. For all we know it could be an entirely different piece of software running on the DHDs. I'm not saying that it couldn't work, but we just don't know.

Where has it ever been stated that the DHD's cannot dial eight chevrons or connect to the Pegasus network? The stargate doesn't establish a wormhole until the POO is encoded and/or the "on switch" in the center of the DHD is activated. There's no reason why one couldn't enter seven or even eight coordinates before activating the POO. The SGC's dialing computer needed a software update to dial eight chevrons because the program was specifically written to dial seven, but that was the earthlings' own program, not the Ancient original. The Pegasus stargates were programmed to refuse to eight coordinates without a special control crystal, but this was because of the unique threat. The heroes were surprised by the limitation when they first discovered it. I don't see why Pegasus gates couldn't dial any planet in the Milky Way as long as they had the control crystal. The heroes have just had no reason to want to go to any planet other than Earth.

The only limitation is energy. A normal DHD's "battery" isn't big enough to power an intergalactic wormhole. Presumably any Milky Way stargate could dial Pegasus or Ida if it were hooked up to a ZPM or other sufficient source of energy.

As Crazedwraith said, the only gate in Pegasus that can dial the Milky Way (and possibly any other 8 chevron address) is Atlantis. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of programming. Also, it's fairly reasonable to assume that in order to dial a gate in another network, you need an 8th chevron (which is why midway station is necessary), and in order to dial an 8th chevron, you need massive amounts of energy (a failsafe), regardless of the distance. Granted, some of these statements are assumptions, but they're reasonable based on what we've seen.

I already mentioned the programmed limitation in the Pegasus network (people, read posts before you take issue with them). That was a special limitation coded into the Pegasus network to isolate the Wraith from the rest of the universe. As I stated, the heroes were surprised when they discovered the limitation. Evidently, they expected to be able to dial the Milky Way with any stargate as long as they had a ZPM. You seemed to be saying that there was an additional limitation, for Milky Way stargates cannot dial Pegasus addresses (as part of your argument that the networks may be fundamentally incompatible). I don't think that is a valid conclusion given what has been revealed on the show. I recall it being explicitly stated that the extra power was necessary simply to create a wormhole long enough to stretch between galaxies. It was stated that the eighth chevron codes for distance, so the implication is that "eight chevron addresses" are just normal addresses with an eighth chevron added on. It has nothing to do with any limitation in the stargates themselves. Dakara could dial Tayla's homeworld if it had the address and a sufficient power source, and Atlantis could dial Dakara if they had any reason to.

[Braedley]

I already mentioned the programmed limitation in the Pegasus network (people, read posts before you take issue with them). That was a special limitation coded into the Pegasus network to isolate the Wraith from the rest of the universe. As I stated, the heroes were surprised when they discovered the limitation. Evidently, they expected to be able to dial the Milky Way with any stargate as long as they had a ZPM. You seemed to be saying that there was an additional limitation, for Milky Way stargates cannot dial Pegasus addresses (as part of your argument that the networks may be fundamentally incompatible). I don't think that is a valid conclusion given what has been revealed on the show. I recall it being explicitly stated that the extra power was necessary simply to create a wormhole long enough to stretch between galaxies. It was stated that the eighth chevron codes for distance, so the implication is that "eight chevron addresses" are just normal addresses with an eighth chevron added on. It has nothing to do with any limitation in the stargates themselves. Dakara could dial Tayla's homeworld if it had the address and a sufficient power source, and Atlantis could dial Dakara if they had any reason to.

No, I'm not saying that Milky Way gates can't dial Pegasus gates. Why don't you read my post again? Our problem with your post was the way you worded your fist sentence. What you should have said was "Other than the lack of a certain control crystal, why wouldn't Pegasus gates not be able to dial Milky Way gates if given enough energy?" What I said was that there are no gates that can do a "local" dial (that is a 7 chevron dial) to a gate in another network, and that "long distance" dialing requires a minimum amount of energy much greater than a local dial, regardless of the distance, as well as certain programming. You basically brushed off the programming issue by giving the irrelevant example of the SGC dialing computer. And also, I somehow doubt that when the war started, some ancient went around and yanked that particular control crystal on every DHD in Pegasus, meaning that they likely weren't built with them to begin with. Why is this a good assumption? Well, two reasons: the fist is that few planets would have the power supplies capable of powering a long distance dial, making said control crystal irrelevant. The second is that the Wraith basically did a lift and copy of the DHD for the darts, and they would have surely figured out that they could dial an eighth chevron long ago if it was there.

Also, we all know (or at least I hope we all know) that the gates themselves aren't the limiting factor here, it's the DHDs. The gate is essentially a dumb terminal for the DHD it's connected to. The gates draw their power from the DHDs, and get all their signals from the DHDs.

[NecronLord]

It occurs to me that the Aterro device might be substantially more significant than it first appears.

Janus ran a three day test.

Alone, this device could explain both how the Ancients managed to lose against an inferior enemy, and why there are too many Wraith for the population. If the humans in the galaxy at the time used the stargate as much as the Athosians, it could have devastated most worlds in that three day period as they tried to send trading parties. Additionally, if information about it didn't spread quickly, the entire Ancient war machine and civillian population could be even more comprehensively gutted by it, including their shipyards and production facilities.

Eventually, on his little test world, Janus decides enough time has gone by, gets in his jumper, heads for the stargate, dials it up, and then finds something's going quite wrong... He has the sense to skidaddle away from the gate before it explodes, plunging the (unoccupied) planet into a snowball-earth like state with the amount of dust thrown up into the atmosphere.

The Wraith, ironically amongst the least affected, aren't quite so crippled, and set about overwhelming their enemies. Unfortunately for them, there now aren't enough humans to sustain their population at full activity...

No wonder he wanted to build a time machine...

[Zac Naloen]

It also explains moving gates into space, wouldn't want any "accidental" explosions killing their food again.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I don't think I mind these Asgard getting beaten by travellers. If they've been in Pegasus for 10k years, they havn't gotten most of the tech advances the Asgard made during their war with the replicators. They have a limited population, a small industrial base, and a planet that's trying to kill them, so its not crazy to think they can't build new Bellisknir class battlecruisers.

[JME2]

Necron Lord and Zac -- very interesting theories. This might very well explain some of the lingering questions about the Ancient-Wraith War.

[Stargate Nerd]

It occurs to me that the Aterro device might be substantially more significant than it first appears.

Janus ran a three day test.

Alone, this device could explain both how the Ancients managed to lose against an inferior enemy, and why there are too many Wraith for the population. If the humans in the galaxy at the time used the stargate as much as the Athosians, it could have devastated most worlds in that three day period as they tried to send trading parties. Additionally, if information about it didn't spread quickly, the entire Ancient war machine and civillian population could be even more comprehensively gutted by it, including their shipyards and production facilities.

Eventually, on his little test world, Janus decides enough time has gone by, gets in his jumper, heads for the stargate, dials it up, and then finds something's going quite wrong... He has the sense to skidaddle away from the gate before it explodes, plunging the (unoccupied) planet into a snowball-earth like state with the amount of dust thrown up into the atmosphere.

The Wraith, ironically amongst the least affected, aren't quite so crippled, and set about overwhelming their enemies. Unfortunately for them, there now aren't enough humans to sustain their population at full activity...

No wonder he wanted to build a time machine...

I must say, I rather like this theory.

[Braedley]

Come to think about it, it's a very comprehensive theory that explains a lot. Although I think that the Wraith were affected a little more, what with blowing up stargates before they send darts through, let alone the number of cruisers and hives that were destroyed before they stopped using hyperdrive. They could wait it out, but they probably took heavy losses in the beginning, and wouldn't know exactly when they could start using hyperdrive and the gates again.

[avatarxprime]

Come to think about it, it's a very comprehensive theory that explains a lot. Although I think that the Wraith were affected a little more, what with blowing up stargates before they send darts through, let alone the number of cruisers and hives that were destroyed before they stopped using hyperdrive. They could wait it out, but they probably took heavy losses in the beginning, and wouldn't know exactly when they could start using hyperdrive and the gates again.

True, but it seems that the Wraith are capable of quite quickly rebuilding their forces when provided with adequate technology. We've seen the cloning facilities that they used (when powered by a ZPM) to build massive armies and it's not beyond reason that they were capable of quickly growing their ships in a similar manner. So they could have been spending the entire time after they realize what happened and until someone decides to run a test of the hyperdrive or they happen to run into an Ancient ship. The Ancients in the mean while would have been busy rebuilding and trying to tend to the collateral damage done to the human population.