WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

[Ryan Thunder]

He's saying that logic shouldn't apply that much in the same setting that military folk consider melee combat a perfectly viable strategy over blowing holes in people with laser beams.

Duh.

Ok. My post, for everybody that knows how to read, is a criticism of GW Fiat and Uber GRIMDARK. So is he trying to criticize me by agreeing with me? Maybe he ought to speak for himself? See that looked kind of like a call-out on something, and I'd like the author to explain exactly what he's calling me out on.

And if he is in fact making the case that too much logic is applied to 40k, I'd like to know 'where' and 'how' and what things in 40k have no logical explanation. If you want to raise that standard, by all means, do so.

Sorry, out of all the armies in WH40K, the only two that I can stand are the Tau Empire and the Imperial Guard. Why? I like the Tau because they're the only lots that don't seem to think that carrying a chainsaw and a pistol into a shooting war is a good idea. (The Guard are guilty of this too, but to a lesser extent than, say, Space Marines, who even go to the trouble of strapping rockets on their backs in an attempt to make their tactics workable.)

I wasn't really 'calling you out' on anything, actually, just sort of venting at the stupidity of it all...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Sorry, out of all the armies in WH40K, the only two that I can stand are the Tau Empire and the Imperial Guard. Why? I like the Tau because they're the only lots that don't seem to think that carrying a chainsaw and a pistol into a shooting war is a good idea. (The Guard are guilty of this too, but to a lesser extent than, say, Space Marines, who even go to the trouble of strapping rockets on their backs in an attempt to make their tactics workable.)

I wasn't really 'calling you out' on anything, actually, just sort of venting at the stupidity of it all...

Er... armies in the present still use pistols, knives and what not in close quarter fighting. So I am puzzled by what you regard as "stupid" especially when armour piercing weapons are few and limited.

And the Tau have their own bunch of "spear/sword wielding" maniacs.

[NecronLord]

Sorry, out of all the armies in WH40K, the only two that I can stand are the Tau Empire and the Imperial Guard. Why? I like the Tau because they're the only lots that don't seem to think that carrying a chainsaw and a pistol into a shooting war is a good idea. (The Guard are guilty of this too, but to a lesser extent than, say, Space Marines, who even go to the trouble of strapping rockets on their backs in an attempt to make their tactics workable.)

Err. You're aware that the necrons have all of three specialist close combat units, one of which is always teleported into the enemy (flayed ones), one of which is rather well optimised for room-to-room urban combat (wraiths) and one of which is notable because it mind-screws anyone near it (pariahs) and is a CC unit for that reason.

In comparison, the Tau have at least two CC centric units, two more from forgeworld. And one of those is the supreme leader caste of their race, who habitually go near battlefields with only pointy sticks.

The Tau are notable because they suck at it, not that they don't think it has a valid place in their combat doctrine.

[Raxmei]

Don't forget scarabs and tomb spyders, NL. Sometimes the necron lord too, and then there are the C'tans.

[Ryan Thunder]

Sorry, out of all the armies in WH40K, the only two that I can stand are the Tau Empire and the Imperial Guard. Why? I like the Tau because they're the only lots that don't seem to think that carrying a chainsaw and a pistol into a shooting war is a good idea. (The Guard are guilty of this too, but to a lesser extent than, say, Space Marines, who even go to the trouble of strapping rockets on their backs in an attempt to make their tactics workable.)

I wasn't really 'calling you out' on anything, actually, just sort of venting at the stupidity of it all...

Er... armies in the present still use pistols, knives and what not in close quarter fighting. So I am puzzled by what you regard as "stupid" especially when armour piercing weapons are few and limited.

A gun is easily more powerful than any dedicated melee weapon, even in melee combat. A pistol even more so. There's nothing wrong with packing a pistol, but choosing to forgo a laser rifle with more firepower than a modern heavy machine gun in favour of a glorified chainsaw and a sidearm is just silly.

And the Tau have their own bunch of "spear/sword wielding" maniacs.

I notice two things about the relationship between the Tau and the Kroot:
1. The Tau think the Kroot are barbaric, and hope that over time they can be cured of their barbarism.
2. They gave them better guns, not better blades.

Err. You're aware that the necrons have all of three specialist close combat units, one of which is always teleported into the enemy (flayed ones), one of which is rather well optimised for room-to-room urban combat (wraiths) and one of which is notable because it mind-screws anyone near it (pariahs) and is a CC unit for that reason.

They also thought it would be a good idea to put axe blades on the ends of their gauss flayers. Go figure.

You mention the Wraiths, but they could be just as if not more effective if they were equipped with gauss flayers...

In comparison, the Tau have at least two CC centric units, two more from forgeworld. And one of those is the supreme leader caste of their race, who habitually go near battlefields with only pointy sticks.

Ethereals have no place in their combat doctrine. The only exception to this was Aun'shi. Otherwise, they're observers, and for whatever bizarre reason, do not arm themselves with anything that could seriously be considered as an effective weapon. Hence the pointy sticks.

Kroot are more useful as an infiltrated firebase than as a melee unit, and Ethereals are flat out useless as anything besides a motivator for the Tau troops. Either are more capable than the rest of the army in close combat, but neither specialize in it.

The Tau are notable because they suck at it, not that they don't think it has a valid place in their combat doctrine.

They suck at it for two reasons;
1. Physiological limitations.
2. They don't train in it, because they have determined that its a lousy way to fight a war when you have easy access to much more destructive weapons that don't require you to approach to within spitting distance to be useful.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

A gun is easily more powerful than any dedicated melee weapon, even in melee combat. A pistol even more so. There's nothing wrong with packing a pistol, but choosing to forgo a laser rifle with more firepower than a modern heavy machine gun in favour of a glorified chainsaw and a sidearm is just silly.

Of course it's more powerful, but you are talking about hunking armoured Space Marines who have armour that shrug off laser shots. And Space Marines come equipped with bolt guns more powerful than the Imperial Guard's laser rifle. So what are you bullshitting about? Even in the real world, close quarter combat with knives are a fact of life in urban warfare and jungle warfare.

And heavy machine guns? A heavy bolter can only be carried by a few Imperial Guard, or a single Space Marine.

I notice two things about the relationship between the Tau and the Kroot:
1. The Tau think the Kroot are barbaric, and hope that over time they can be cured of their barbarism.
2. They gave them better guns, not better blades.

And yet they are still deployed in a close quarter capacity by the Tau. Obviously they think differently from you.

They also thought it would be a good idea to put axe blades on the ends of their gauss flayers. Go figure.

You mention the Wraiths, but they could be just as if not more effective if they were equipped with gauss flayers...

Yeah, and it's stupid not to fit a bayonet in front of an M16. You and what fucking army?

They suck at it for two reasons;
1. Physiological limitations.
2. They don't train in it, because they have determined that its a lousy way to fight a war when you have easy access to much more destructive weapons that don't require you to approach to within spitting distance to be useful.

Of course it's a lousy way when they don't bother to equip their soldiers with heavy armour. But they won't be smiling when they are dealing with a bunch of Khornate berserkers.

[NecronLord]

Don't forget scarabs and tomb spyders, NL

Neither are actually pure combat units. They're there, but their main functions are either repair, or consumption of materials (Apocalypse, various other bits) though I suppose you might infer that scarabs are a combat unit, they're also mentioned as 'purifying' and consuming things, and acting as recon drones. If we wanted to judge them like that; well, Tau shield and medical drones have no ranged weapons either...

Sometimes the necron lord too,

Only if you upgrade them with warscythes; besides, I question whether canonically their warscythes lack the shooty ability of other warscythes; it seems far more like a balance issue, given that everything else with the glowy green stuff is a weapon, or part of a weapons system

and then there are the C'tans.

The C'tan both have ranged abilities. Indeed, the Deciever is just about the best unit in the game at avoiding close combat, when he wants to.

A gun is easily more powerful than any dedicated melee weapon, even in melee combat.

Okay. Lightsabre, vs Arquebus. Both start out unignited, their users in a feisable melee distance. You exxaggeate; it's entirely possible to envision a close combat weapon that's more powerful than many guns.

They also thought it would be a good idea to put axe blades on the ends of their gauss flayers. Go figure.

The same reason they think it's a good idea to have skeletal looking chestplates. Looking intimidating or cool is a part of their design policy, even though some elements of them are clearly not functional. It seems to work for them. You can see just how much play those axes get in the necrons vs ultramarines picture in the 5th edition book. Where necron warriors show no sign of using them, despite their enemy being in hand to hand with them. In fact, I've seen them swing those axes in precisely one art piece. And even then, there's not actual target in sight, so for all we know, they're really used as a sort of bipod.

You mention the Wraiths, but they could be just as if not more effective if they were equipped with gauss flayers...

Not really. They're only vulnerable when they're hitting something - it's generally literally impossible to shoot a wraith unless he's stabbing yourself or one of your friends. It's possible that a phase shifted gauss flayer does nothing to solid matter, or that phase shifting requires a lot of power, which might prevent a flayer being fitted.

What would be better, is a solid projectile weapon; when bullets leave the phase field they become normal (inquisitor). But for whatever reason, they don't do that, but then, we know they're keeping a lot of things 'in reserve' rather than deploying every wicked invention they're capable of. Wraiths are a perfectly adequate concept, in the background, for what they're meant to do.

Ethereals have no place in their combat doctrine.

Bollocks. If it habitually goes into battle deliberately, it's an accepted part of their combat tactics. Albeit a stupid one.

Kroot are more useful as an infiltrated firebase than as a melee unit, and Ethereals are flat out useless as anything besides a motivator for the Tau troops. Either are more capable than the rest of the army in close combat, but neither specialize in it.

They suck at it for two reasons;
1. Physiological limitations.
2. They don't train in it, because they have determined that its a lousy way to fight a war when you have easy access to much more destructive weapons that don't require you to approach to within spitting distance to be useful.

We've seen a space marine run up to a crisis suit, while it's shooting and hitting him, and kill it with a sword. "Much more destructive" is in fact, a tabletop convention; their guns aren't really that effective at penetrating enemy forces' heavy infantry armour at all.

[Ryan Thunder]

A gun is easily more powerful than any dedicated melee weapon, even in melee combat. A pistol even more so. There's nothing wrong with packing a pistol, but choosing to forgo a laser rifle with more firepower than a modern heavy machine gun in favour of a glorified chainsaw and a sidearm is just silly.

Of course it's more powerful, but you are talking about hunking armoured Space Marines who have armour that shrug off laser shots.

What exactly makes you think that you'll have any fucking chance whatsoever of killing a Space Marine in melee combat if you can't faze it with a laser rifle that would make an Abrams cringe?

And Space Marines come equipped with bolt guns more powerful than the Imperial Guard's laser rifle.

Let's see. What is more of a threat? A power-armoured Space Marine with a boltgun or a power armoured Space Marine without one?

If you have any sort of difficulty deciding that one, there's something wrong with you.

So what are you bullshitting about? Even in the real world, close quarter combat with knives are a fact of life in urban warfare and jungle warfare.

Yeah, that's why we've never seen modern soldiers eschew their fully functional assault rifles for swords, pikes, or spears, right?

And heavy machine guns? A heavy bolter can only be carried by a few Imperial Guard, or a single Space Marine.

How is that relevant? I was comparing a lasgun to a machine gun, not a lasgun to a heavy bolter. That's like a--hell, I don't even know what to call that monstrosity. Squad automatic rocket launcher, or somesuch.

I notice two things about the relationship between the Tau and the Kroot:
1. The Tau think the Kroot are barbaric, and hope that over time they can be cured of their barbarism.
2. They gave them better guns, not better blades.

And yet they are still deployed in a close quarter capacity by the Tau. Obviously they think differently from you.

Enough of your nitpicking.

We don't have Tau running into battle with equipment designed to enable them to engage in melee combat with the enemy. That is all.

They also thought it would be a good idea to put axe blades on the ends of their gauss flayers. Go figure.

You mention the Wraiths, but they could be just as if not more effective if they were equipped with gauss flayers...

Yeah, and it's stupid not to fit a bayonet in front of an M16. You and what fucking army?

Who said anything about bayonets?

If they're going to put something sharp on the end of a rifle, the least they could do is make it so you can poke things with it.

Of course it's a lousy way when they don't bother to equip their soldiers with heavy armour.

If they were equipped with heavy armour then they would be just that much more difficult to kill--at long range.

Melee necessitates a heavily armoured and very strong soldier in order to deliver a wildy varying level of damage to the target. Ranged combat requires a powerful, long-ranged gun, but does not require a heavily armoured soldier in order to deliver a level of damage that is, by comparison, consistent, to the target.

Let's have a little duel. I have a 2 m pike, and you have a chainsaw. It's the same problem; I can hit you before you can hit me. Whether I'm using a 2 m pike or a sniper rifle is irrelevant; longer-ranged weaponry is, as a general rule, better.

You can't deny that a power sword would be rather inferior to a weapon that caused similar damage to the target from, say, 30 m away. Ergo, guns > swords. QED

But they won't be smiling when they are dealing with a bunch of Khornate berserkers.

Yes, yes. Neither would a bunch of Guardsmen, even if they all had chainsaw swords.

In fact, they would survive longer if they stuck with their lasguns.

[Ryan Thunder]

We've seen a space marine run up to a crisis suit, while it's shooting and hitting him, and kill it with a sword. "Much more destructive" is in fact, a tabletop convention; their guns aren't really that effective at penetrating enemy forces' heavy infantry armour at all.

As of right now, I am completely disgusted. Fuck that.

[Ryan Thunder]

Sorry, should have included this with the last post; but when you say that "more destructive" is a table-top convention, its not. In fact, they deliberately make their weapons nigh-useless on the table top so that they don't slaughter everything, even going so far as to deny models the ability to use pistols in close combat, even when they're more powerful than whatever melee weapon their holding at the time.

Their rationalization for this is something along the lines of "The best gun in the universe won't help you if your opponent is bashing your brains out with a rock." Of course, they completely ignore the fact that he has to get there to begin with, and that even if he is that close, its a simple matter of pointing your gun at him and pulling a switch to blow him away.

But we'll just ignore all that so we can have our medieval fun--forty thousand fucking years in the future.

[Imperial Overlord]

As of right now, I am completely disgusted. Fuck that.

It was a fucking awesome scene. Space Marine advancing, tearing a crisis suit apart with bolter fire while taking a beating and still coming on strong. He lets loose with the power sword when he gets up close. Space Marine armour is tough.

I love the massive amounts of Tau death in that book.

40k likes having hand to hand. They rationalize it by having even IG flak armour offering great protection and having super nasty hand to hand combat weapons being comparatively common and monoedged weapons being standard issue. Even so, outside of the board game, most casualties come from ranged combat (like say Gaunt's Ghosts series).

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm going to point out that energy and momentum are not the same thing, and that a comparison between a lasgun and a knife/sword/whatever isn't going to be exactly equivalent. (IE armour that stops a lasgun would not neccesarily stop a big-ass axe, and even if it did, there's still the possiblity of injury through the armour via sheer force/momentum.)

Space Marines excel in close combat because well.. they're space Marines. They're optimised fro both rapid striking and terorr attacks, and their equipment and method of deployment allow for them to strike close as they need to. (drop pod assaults, ship to ship boarding actions and close quarters battle.) Their equipment and physique also make them better suited to close quarters attack (And enduring getting close.) Hell, there's a psychological/terror role to Marines as well, and seeing an enemy who won't go down to your gunfire is rather terrifying as well.

Of course that's an oversimplification, because the CQB specialists are Assault Marines.. they also have tactical marines and Devastators who also utilize more "long-ranged" options (as do the scouts, who serve as snipers.)

EVERY example of the Guard I can think of in fluff has guns being used before bayonets unless things DO get to close quarters (And even then guns still play a role.) The only exceptions to that would be the Ogyrns or some of the more primitive feral troops (who are basically cannon fodder as it is.) Guns are, in fact, pretty much the only advantage the Guard has - they have alot of guns and alot of different kinds of guns. Without the guns the Guardsmen are alot weaker against Space Marines, CSMs (or even your average Chaos Cultist, who is both crazier and sometimes even mutated/warp blessed), mutants, Orks, Tyranids, whatnot.

There's also the simple fact that some of their enemies will, at some point or another, force close combat on them by sheer numbers and/or insanity. Tyranids and Orks are key examples here. It also doesn't help that some enemies, particularily the latter two examples, tend to be far more durable as well (Tyranids moreso than Orks). Fuck, you can drop nuclear-equivalent payload on Tyranid forcecs and they'll STILL keep coming...

I dont have to even bother with the Orks, Chaos, ,and Tyranids, since "efficiency" of tactics either has different meanings for them or doesn't apply in the same way it would apply to the Imperium (or modern forcees.)

[NecronLord]

Sorry, should have included this with the last post; but when you say that "more destructive" is a table-top convention, its not.

No, the idea that Tau can out-shoot anyone is. Crisis suits don't do much to power armour, canonically. In the TT, they tear through them like they're made of wet tissue; so that Tau players have a chance against space marines.

[Connor MacLeod]

Tau minus allies are largely just glorified all sniper/hunter troops, and crisis suits are basically just mobile heavy weapons platforms/troops (A more mobile form of Sentinel, really.). THey're whole concept is "heavy long range firepower and high mobility", and there's not alot of flexiblity in that for them. Which is why they have allies like the Kroot.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What exactly makes you think that you'll have any fucking chance whatsoever of killing a Space Marine in melee combat if you can't faze it with a laser rifle that would make an Abrams cringe?

You are the idiot who was fuming over Space Marines using chainswords and jumppacks. Then I point out the lasguns the Guard carry are largely ineffective against Space Marine. So yeah you are the one whining over it.

Let's see. What is more of a threat? A power-armoured Space Marine with a boltgun or a power armoured Space Marine without one?

If you have any sort of difficulty deciding that one, there's something wrong with you.

Well, you are the idiot who make sound like the Space Marines only wield chainswords and jumppacks. Hey, even Assault Marines carry bolt pistols.

And here's a tip, for firesquads to be effective, they have to be organised in squads and thus have to be close to each other. If a whole swarm of Space Marines jump in their midst, not only will their attention be distracted, the standard marine squads can close in with their heavy weapons and kill the Tau like minced meat.

Yeah, that's why we've never seen modern soldiers eschew their fully functional assault rifles for swords, pikes, or spears, right?

And Space Marines don't. So what are you bitching about?

How is that relevant? I was comparing a lasgun to a machine gun, not a lasgun to a heavy bolter. That's like a--hell, I don't even know what to call that monstrosity. Squad automatic rocket launcher, or somesuch.

Oh I dunno. Heavy Bolters happen to function in the same role as machine gun. And modern day machine guns don't do anything to Space Marines.... So why exactly are you even bothering to bring up real world comparisons?

Enough of your nitpicking.

We don't have Tau running into battle with equipment designed to enable them to engage in melee combat with the enemy. That is all.

Well hey, the Tau never run into battle without their Kroot allies either, when dealing with Space Marines or what not.

Who said anything about bayonets?

If they're going to put something sharp on the end of a rifle, the least they could do is make it so you can poke things with it.

So how is it different from putting an axe with a sharp edge on a gauss flyer?

If they were equipped with heavy armour then they would be just that much more difficult to kill--at long range.

Melee necessitates a heavily armoured and very strong soldier in order to deliver a wildy varying level of damage to the target. Ranged combat requires a powerful, long-ranged gun, but does not require a heavily armoured soldier in order to deliver a level of damage that is, by comparison, consistent, to the target.

Let's have a little duel. I have a 2 m pike, and you have a chainsaw. It's the same problem; I can hit you before you can hit me. Whether I'm using a 2 m pike or a sniper rifle is irrelevant; longer-ranged weaponry is, as a general rule, better.

No, a pike is a stupid analogy. If I were the Space Marine, I'd have the pike sliced, as they did in the past when the pikes were made of wood.

And no, again, Assault Marines carry bolt pistols and by no means are they the dominant portion of any Space Marine Chapter.

You can't deny that a power sword would be rather inferior to a weapon that caused similar damage to the target from, say, 30 m away. Ergo, guns > swords. QED

No I don't, but if the target in question is carry armour that is resilient to my weapons, I'm not going to sit back and let him kill me, especially when my chainsword has a monomolecular edge and is sharp enough to cut through just about anything.

You also forgetting that any soldier comes equipped with only so much ammo. What happens when it comes down to nothing on hand?

Yes, yes. Neither would a bunch of Guardsmen, even if they all had chainsaw swords.

In fact, they would survive longer if they stuck with their lasguns.

Not when the Khornate berserkers have reached their lines. What, you want to shoot your own people?

[Ford Prefect]

You exxaggeate; it's entirely possible to envision a close combat weapon that's more powerful than many guns.

I mean, let's talk power fists; the Inquisitor's Handbook describes power fists as being heinously vicious. You grab ahold of someone's arm and squeeze and you'll take off the arm. Grab someone's face and squeeze and their head will come apart like a dropped melon. Additionally, punching someone with one is equally terrible - a combination of great mass and the disruption field is fairly horrific. Thunder Hammers are perhaps worse; even without the shockwave stuff from Rogue Trader, the fact remains that you can hit a tank with one and it will actually hurt the crew (though mileage is going to vary).

At the end of the day, there is a heavy amount of melee combat in 40k, but there is equally a very large amount of shooting in the setting as well. Nothing is more iconic than the image of a Space Marine, legs braced, firing his boltgun from the hip - it's one of them ost common images in the art.

It was a fucking awesome scene. Space Marine advancing, tearing a crisis suit apart with bolter fire while taking a beating and still coming on strong. He lets loose with the power sword when he gets up close. Space Marine armour is tough.

I love the massive amounts of Tau death in that book.

What novel does this occur in? At the end of the day, Tau Crisis suits are basically just a poor man's Power Armour. I actually like the Tau and their methods/weapons of warfare, but at the end of the day we must recognise that the Imperium has been producing powered armour for perhaps longer than the Tau have had fire.

[Ford Prefect]

Apologies for the double post and screwing up my quote tages.

[Teleros]

And no, again, Assault Marines carry bolt pistols and by no means are they the dominant portion of any Space Marine Chapter.

There's normally 1 company made up entirely of Assault Marines, plus 2 squads per battle company (of which there are 4).
Also note that assault marine squads can carry more specialised equipment (eg flamers), and I seem to recall that under the old rules they could even run around with meltaguns, plasma guns and the like. The last thing you want if you're in a bunker facing Space Marines is a squad of these buggers landing on top of your bunker from their Thunderhawk & dousing your squad in burning promethium .
Another thing - where are Assault Marines best used? In city fighting, storming bunkers / trenches etc, and the like. Often from an aircraft high above. Ie, generally places where a weapon like a bolt pistol, in the hands of a Space Marine, is all the ranged firepower you need. And hell, as a Space Marine, if I had to jump into a trench full of chaos cultists or whatever, I doubt I'd use my bolt pistol much either - it'd probably be much quicker to simply cut my way through the cultists with a chainsword (not to mention terror-inducing ). And, should I come up against a bunker or similar, well that's why I've got things like frag & krak grenades, melta-bombs, a squad member with a flamer, and the sergeant with his whopping great big, tank-armour-peeling power fist .

What novel does this occur in? At the end of the day, Tau Crisis suits are basically just a poor man's Power Armour. I actually like the Tau and their methods/weapons of warfare, but at the end of the day we must recognise that the Imperium has been producing powered armour for perhaps longer than the Tau have had fire.

The Last Chancers novel where they're involved with the Tau. Can't remember the name, but Connor or someone will most likely know it. Kill Team perhaps?

[Imperial Overlord]

What novel does this occur in? At the end of the day, Tau Crisis suits are basically just a poor man's Power Armour. I actually like the Tau and their methods/weapons of warfare, but at the end of the day we must recognise that the Imperium has been producing powered armour for perhaps longer than the Tau have had fire.

It's in Kill Team, the second Last Chancer's novel. They're basically a 40K version of the Dirty Dozen.

[The Dark]

Sidebar/semi-related discussion:

I was looking at Philip Sibbering's Space Marine Biology page, and even though it's non-canonical (and may have undersized marines, given that Index Astartes places them at "at least three meters tall"), decided to run a Marine of his type through a couple calculations. At 7'6", 780 pounds, a typical Space Marine, due to their physically active lifestyle, would require around 11,700 calories per day to maintain weight when not actively in combat, or about what Michael Phelps eats to maintain his swimming training. Now we know why Marine ships have such small crews - the entire thing's filled with food .

[PainRack]

40k likes having hand to hand. They rationalize it by having even IG flak armour offering great protection and having super nasty hand to hand combat weapons being comparatively common and monoedged weapons being standard issue. Even so, outside of the board game, most casualties come from ranged combat (like say Gaunt's Ghosts series).

Its still doesn't change the fact that a lot of the game fans and even concept design emphasize meelee over ranged combat. Hell, LOOK at the ingame videos from Dawn of War and the like. Dawn of War opening video has to be the most stupid tactical move ever. You had a fortified position, the enemy is charging you, you broke their attack. Fine, you counter-charge to gain momentum and crush them, but what do you do next? You ADVANCE up into open terrain away from cover, up a hill and then get sucked RIGHT into the middle of the Ork hordes which was using dead ground and the terrain intelligently. And of course, despite a Space Marine being valuable and the Imperial Tactica saying that any tactic should have more risk to the enemy than to you, we see the Space Marine carry his flag bearer up the freaking hill against what appears to be autogun fire, ultimately collapsing on top of the hill just so he could plant a freaking banner and await the rest of the Blood Raven drop pods landing.

Of course, no one EVER explains why he didn't simply use his comms and ask those droppods to wipe out the enemy. You know, actual use of maneveur and strike forces.

Thank god the Dawn of War two video is much more intelligent. It just that they still embrace the close assault methodology against hardened Space Marines...... Idiots.
Afterall, the Shuriken is supposed to be super sharp and capable of cutting through heavy armour with ease. Hell, they're using that same metal and technology in their meelee weapons. If they could kill them with knives, their catapults should had no problem whatsoever.
And we only see once instance of the Space Marine charging into battle against the Eldar in the face of enemy firepower....One wonders why his bolt pistol wouldn't have sufficed.

And hell, as a Space Marine, if I had to jump into a trench full of chaos cultists or whatever, I doubt I'd use my bolt pistol much either - it'd probably be much quicker to simply cut my way through the cultists with a chainsword (not to mention terror-inducing ). And, should I come up against a bunker or similar, well that's why I've got things like frag & krak grenades, melta-bombs, a squad member with a flamer, and the sergeant with his whopping great big, tank-armour-peeling power fist .

Other than the fact that you can pump out more shots per your pistol than you can via swinging your arm? Given the firepower and reactions of Space Marines, it should be just as doable to simply arm a Space Marine with dual pistols and fire away, rather than a pistol and sword.

You are the idiot who was fuming over Space Marines using chainswords and jumppacks. Then I point out the lasguns the Guard carry are largely ineffective against Space Marine. So yeah you are the one whining over it.

Fingolfin. Don't be an ass. If meelee combat makes Space Marines more vulnerable, then by right, they should be LEANING away from meelee combat and using their other physical capabilities! After all, why go up close and risk hurting yourself against a Goff vibroaxe or even a guard monobladed knife, when their guns have lesser chance of hurting you? And given your speed and reflexes, you can actually dump out more firepower than your opponents?

Tau minus allies are largely just glorified all sniper/hunter troops, and crisis suits are basically just mobile heavy weapons platforms/troops (A more mobile form of Sentinel, really.). THey're whole concept is "heavy long range firepower and high mobility", and there's not alot of flexiblity in that for them. Which is why they have allies like the Kroot.

Connor. You essentially just quoted what is our modern day military. Heavy long range firepower and high mobility. An intelligent use of that configuration would give HUGE flexibility.

[Ryan Thunder]

Thank you, Painrack.

Alright, folks, I feel compelled to point out that you've done nothing but strawman my arguments and try to nitpick them to death up until this point. The l east you could do is try.

Here we go;

1. Any weapon can be made more effective by extending its range. Melee weapons, in fact, shorten the effective killing range of a soldier.

2. A soldier must be heavily armoured and/or ludicrously agile in order to effectively field a melee weapon. A soldier armed with little more than a rifle needs to be neither. Therefore, a soldier, given an arbitrary amount of armour and handed a melee weapon is less effective than a similarly armoured soldier armed with a ranged weapon of similar or even lesser power.

Since a soldier has the express purpose of killing as many of the enemy as possible before he himself is killed, this must mean that a ranged weapon will make a soldier more efficient.

From this, we can conclude that ranged weapons are better than melee weapons.

Therefore, an army that fields dedicated melee troops when they have access to powerful ranged weaponry is retarded. QED

Therefore, the entirety of the 40K universe is retarded from the outset, including the Tau, who happen to be the least offenders (Kroot), followed closely by the Imperial Guard.

[Ryan Thunder]

Oh, fuck... Where did that Mr. Green smily come from?

[PainRack]

Space Marines excel in close combat because well.. they're space Marines. They're optimised fro both rapid striking and terorr attacks, and their equipment and method of deployment allow for them to strike close as they need to. (drop pod assaults, ship to ship boarding actions and close quarters battle.) Their equipment and physique also make them better suited to close quarters attack (And enduring getting close.) Hell, there's a psychological/terror role to Marines as well, and seeing an enemy who won't go down to your gunfire is rather terrifying as well.

Of course that's an oversimplification, because the CQB specialists are Assault Marines.. they also have tactical marines and Devastators who also utilize more "long-ranged" options (as do the scouts, who serve as snipers.)

One should note something Connor. What you say is absolutely true, but CQB is not knives and sword work. It involves pistols, but a military force would very well use more devastating SMGs, using machinepistols more as a last resort. Normal infantry do CQB with rifles, grenades and the like.

The problem comes from the artwork and the fan perception, namely, the use of chainswords, power fists and etc as the primary element in close combat. That's moronic.
Its not even the concept of running out of ammo. Those equipment draw on power too and would require "ammunition" as well. At best, these equipment should form the secondary aspect of the Space Marines arsenal, a backup to when pistols jam and you need to reload and etc. Or when you need stealthy firepower.

[Ghost Rider]

Because we have a warning system, congratulations to Ryan!

BTW, next time instead of derailing a thread to spout off, start a new one if you have problems with a universe.